In the average 1v1 fight? Force Speed

I've been following this from the beginning and from the beginning there were other "nerf Sorcerer" posts. This fellows thread stood out and got lots of responses because of his detailed explanations. More and more people posted on this thread different reasons and sometimes other threads were closed and linked here by moderators. The thread starter has had the same opinion from the start, but has been trying to adapt to changes. You could say snares aren't CC because they don't affect the resolve bar, I personally would list the armor debuff on Tracer Missile as utility. Would you agree? Not necessarily, and that's where the title changes seem to come from. Tumri's stance hasn't changed, and the main post has been updated when facts or bugs show up. It's not plot twisting, it's just hard to center a nerf on a class that is doing pretty well all over the place while any one specific thing by itself isn't overpowered (you know, aside from Backlash's presumed buggy state =P). While I don't agree, I think he's doing alright for the most part and his particular changes aren't class breaking (most of you don't even spec for them). I think it requires one more title change if moderators are still closing topics and linking here "Sorcerer/Sage is OP." Of course then he'd have to update based on other healer perspectives as well, and either learn to debate healing specs or hope that someone else will.

Well you're in luck then buddy, 60% of the game has that bubble and they can cast it on you regardless of spec.

Yeah, we are real early bloomers. By 16 you're not missing much in the way of utility. I can see Sorcerers and Sages being overpowered in the lower bracket because some classes don't really shine until later on.

I did not know better than that, only what Torhead told me. =P I use instant Whirlwind because it's instant, and I would love it to not have a stun. The downside is I have to be very sure that player won't get hit, the upside is that it's a much greater chance for a kill in the hutball fire if my stun is on cooldown and the enemy's resolve bar is empty.

Yes, you need a pocket Sorcerer to cast something on you once every 17-30 seconds. We could also substitute an external heal for the non-sorc. If we're OP in a group setting, why would we not give the group our best ability? You're not even talking about classes damage mitigation without external help because you completely skip the fact that every other classes has at least two defensive cooldowns while we have none. The majority are not 3m cooldowns. Smuggler/IO: Defense Screen 45s Dodge 1m [*]Assassin/Shadow: Force Shroud 1m Deflection 2m Specced 11pts: Dark Ward 12s [*]Bounty Hunter/Trooper: Kolto Overload 3m Energy Shield 2m [*]Warrior/Knight: Saber Ward 3m Juggernaut: Endure Pain 90s Specced 11pts: Invincible 3m [*]Marauder: Undying Rage 90s Cloak of Pain 1m That's three 3m cooldowns and I had to spec for the third one, so I grabbed the other specced one I saw. It's almost like 3m is the max for a defensive cooldown. Why are you exaggerating Sorcerer abilities and underplaying others like you have a "Sorcerers and Sages must be nerfed at all costs" agenda? This is my assumption based on fact, whereas your 8% at most dps loss is based on what? You don't want to lose an argument? If a Sorcerer only moves for 1.5 seconds when he has an ideal instant cast ready (meaning following his priority list) he will only lose 8% dps with the CC spec. Now who's being unrealistic?

Now you know better than that, your own blind is 8 seconds and AoE. Not to mention, if I happen to perfectly time a hit at the end of my 8 second mez to turn it into a 2 second stun your resolve bar is filled completely, so why wouldn't I just use my 4 second stun at the end like you could?

Just one note, all blinds are mezzes.

Once again you're back to your math with bubble + light armor = greater than other armor. Stop and listen, bubble can be cast on others and we don't have defensive cooldowns. So math this out for me, bubble + light armor vs bubble + not light armor + defensive cooldowns. Double bubble? You can also have that. If we're going to pick whatever we want out of arguments, there's nothing stopping a double bubble on you. The 8% figure is under ideal conditions (standing still, blasting away) from v2 page 81 I believe. The at most, was your own figure from who knows where. Ideal conditions for best dps require you not to sit on wrath procs, so when the condition is not ideal anymore and you're on the run what do you use? Deathfield? Should have grabbed that bonus at the top of the madness tree. DoTs? Should have grabbed those bonuses at the top of the madness tree. Shock? Ok, you still get the same damage from there. If you're forced to run, a CC hybrid is going to lose more damage than 13/28 or full madness would if they're forced to run. 8% at least dps loss is what you were looking for.

Incorrect.

Good points, but what do you do if the sorc breaks LoS and heals to full at about 30 meter range? I think you're at a disadvantage with anything to break LoS, as sorc heals can be cast in combat. Then they can come back out and dps again.

For reference, Sorcerers don't have defensive cooldowns, we have the bubble that we use like one. As far as your topic goes, some classes are inherently weaker than others in 1v1 and you just don't match up to ranged dps with a healing offspec. I'm not real familiar with your class, but I'd guess it'd be torn apart 1v1 versus Bounty Hunters and Sorcerers. Equal skill they are going to know when to duck around a corner to heal up. That corner will likely be 30 meters away or so, so running up there probably won't do you any good. As far as I can tell you just have to rely on your team. On the plus side, those guys flying around with glow sticks can't go all superman on you, shoot them.

While I agree about us not getting protection because of the medals, I'd like to add that I got healing points on my rank 14 Juggernaut the other day without using any items that I know of (maybe I miskey'd a medpac, but I thought those didn't count towards medals anymore). The general consensus from general chat was that it was the recharge ability that every class gets. Not sure if it even matters as I don't know if it's even possible to get one medal with that. I would like to know if there's a skill that heals me that I'm not reading right though. =)

Maybe if you're attacking a target that isn't on you, or an Operative/Scoundrel (no gap closer = more time for resolve to drain and/or more damage on target at range). 13/28 includes Lightning Barrage, 20/21 is less burst and less damage. Again, the bubble can be placed on others and you don't always get a second bubble. You're also forgetting about Kolto Overload, the Powertechs second defensive cooldown.

While I agree and that seemed to be the intention of the OP, the moderators don't appear to. They are to be closing other Sorcerer nerf threads and redirecting them here, just wanted to point this out as I had previously been telling others the same thing. Looks like you got a promotion Tumri. Way to go on leading the charge, guess I'll have to hold you personally responsible if they nerf my precious Sorcerer! =P

Verified on naked Sorcerer, Mercenary, and Scoundrel.

This can actually be used by the sorc by right-clicking their bubble off. I think it's a bug (and have reported it), but the wording is pretty vague. If this is intended behavior than I don't support it and would like to see it change. Just pointing it out as right-clicking the bubble off is generally not something a sorc would do (or know about just by playing). =)

Explain. I can't even 1v1 most classes if you can 1v2 them then we can definitely talk nerf, just explain how. If you're a great player I can see you succeeding in a 1v2 against bad players, but great player on great player explain.

While I don't think the animation delay should be different for classes I do want you to know that these annoy me to no end when they are a killing blow. I will literally lose control of my character completely and he'll stand still for the half second or so it takes to damage me, then I'll fall over and die. The delay needs to be fixed, I'm just telling you in case it makes you feel a little better knowing that you can cause a bit of nerd rage. =) Took me a minute to figure out why I was dieing like that.

You have a good point. Not being a surge stacker I didn't pay attention to the nerf much. Static Barrier isn't affect by crits at all, so the developers may want to look at that an any other abilities like it for an adjustment.

Cool, so now we can have two defensive cooldowns like every other class? Oh that's probably why we see hybrids so much in other specs. Every spec has an ability 11 points in the tree so why do you not see scoundrels sucker punching people with a HoT on themselves? Marauders with two leaps? Tank powertechs tab DoTing? Logic is not your strong point I see, so if I have an ability at the top of Lightning that just killed any target instantly I would still spec hybrid. It's called weighing your options, and sorcerers have mostly decided against their top tier dps talents. This is partly due to the fact that Wrath and Chain Lightning work so good together, and partly because the alternative isn't good. If Crushing Darkness had a longer activation time and shorter cooldown I'd have no need for Chain Lightning. I can agree with this, so where are my two defensive cooldowns? It would keep dps Sorcerers from getting so much healing on the scoreboard. The bubble could even take the place of that horrible Dark Resilience talent, it'd have to be moved higher up the tree of course. Or an actual balancing idea can be thought of. The bubble is a sorcerers only defense and every melee class has a way to get into melee range. Oh right, I have an ability to CC and run away from battle, why do people see that as a sorcerer winning the fight? What? Are you even trying to formulate an argument here? AoE knockback, cc, stuns? Leave the listing of our abilities to the OP, he's better at it. Looking at the other ranged dps/healer class you'll see that they have much similar CC. Baseline is the same minus our 50% uptime snare DoT and our filler snare, while they get a snare on their AoE knockback. Specced for CC while still getting their top tier dps ability they get a second knockback (which also increase the effectiveness of their AoE one), a snare on their Unload, a 16% chance to snare on any blaster attack, and a stacking armor reduction on their filler (amounting to 20%). In the spec the OP provides I get a root on my knockback, a blind on my bubble, and my eight second mez is instant cast all of which break on damage (root after 2 seconds). I've admittedly won the CC battle (lol 16% chance to snare for two seconds in an off stance), but I took a much greater hit to damage (13/28 is the sorc on top of the scoreboard not being harassed). Now I have bubble (which can be on the Bounty Hunter as well) and Force Speed, while the Bounty Hunter has two defensive cooldowns and heavy armor. No, just no. I'm for balance, I come here trying to clear up any misconceptions. Backlash in it's current state is overpowered, Sorcerers do not need an AoE mez on call and an organized team doesn't need a "pulsating light of you don't get to do anything for 15 seconds" coming from the sorc (could be 12, the resolve bar seems to fill about 25-30%). "Take the bubble away from dps and everything is fine" is a misconception. You want my only option to be running away and healing up? Guess how else you can leave battle and return with full heal/resources? Dieing. So one hit breaks the bubble, and is this their hardest hitting ability or the hardest hitting ability in the game? I don't doubt that Operatives got the shaft with the earlier nerf and I posted against it. How much of that was consumable stacking which got nerfed at the same time? Without a 50 to judge (working on it) I can't really go posting about how they're underpowered now, just that it seemed like a rash decision to nerf them both at once. A Blacklash specced Sorcerer was a really good counter for them to begin with. CC disposal? Are you saying that my bubble negates a 4 second stun? This is my only defense and I can cast it on you as well. No it's really not one or the other, funny thing about you not being the creator of the game is that you don't make these decisions. Which is a great thing because you don't seem to know the subject matter despite posting in a thread full of it. It's a root on our AoE knockback, snare is the Bounty Hunter. By lightning cage I imagine you mean whirlwind? Yeah, that'd be a buff in it's current state. You can't count on pugs not to break it instantly and breaking it instantly gives you a full resolve bar for two seconds of stun as opposed to 8 seconds of stun for a full resolve bar.

I saw what appeared to be bug fixes for some classes. They're not far down the dev tracker.

I cringed until I realized it was the OP again.

Oh, I was assuming that whirlwind and other abilities like it was using the one minute duration time that it uses in PVE. If it's chain CC I don't really see the problem unless the companion doesn't get resolve. At least he blew it all on your companion instead of you. =P

Looks like I read it wrong (it spans three abilities, not my fault =P). Is it a 100% chance to slow if a 10% proc hits? If so it certainly doesn't fit the argument. Regardless, while a Scoundrel doesn't regenerate resources for hitting Tendon Blast it has 100% uptime and they can dps their face off for 12 seconds before casting it again, all while on the move. A Sorcerer isn't using this for kiting unless they can kill the target before it gets to them.