The reason Sorcerers/Sages are OP in PvP

[Sayuri-chan]

The Problems with sorcs is that they scale so much better than any other classes in terms of class stacking that they can win even if they only have sorcs on their team.

 

imagine 1 vs 1 PT vs sorcs with same gear same skill etc .maybe 70% of the the time maybe higher the PT will win.

 

2 PTs vs 2 sorcs with same gear and skill 80% of the time maybe higher the sorcs team will win hands down. why? they can just whirlwind one of the PTs then kill the other the PT. on the other hand the PT's dont have any CC except for 2 stuns which the sorcs can break easy so the fights breaks down into 2 vs 1 in favor of the sorcs. not to mention heals etc.

 

3 PT's vs 3 sorcs with the same gear and skill the sorcs team will win 95% of the time

 

and so on and so forth

 

 

my point is that there is no penalty for having too many sorcs on 1 team and on the contrary having too many sorcs in 1 team compliments eash other which is what is happening in wz's now since many people realized this and so they rolled sorcs

[biowareftw]

I am an OP sorc. My friend is an OP marauder. We both have some battle-master. We fight for top damage spot every match. He almost always gets the 5K hit, sometimes 6K+

 

 

This thread is amusing. Until everyone playing has full champ or they have rated battlegrounds useless threads like this will continue.

 

 

I am squishy but I put out a lot of DPS. Marauders are squishy but have a lot of cool downs to help them stay alive. Get some more gear play some more. It will all change.

 

What is amusing is that you don't know your friend is a much better player then you. You are the second easiest class to play in the game and he is the hardest class to play in the game.

 

I can lead dmg most games as marauder/sent also. FYI it is MUCH easier to be a marauder then a sent. Why? Cus you aren't fighting mostly hybrid sorcs/mercs and SiN's and you aren't chain stunned the entire game. When I play huttball latenight against republic I absolutely slaughter them because they are not made up of just classes that can ranged stun.

 

Just because I can lead dmg on a sentinel doesn't mean hybrid sorc is balanced. I can do 100-200 k more dmg on the sorc/sage and die a whole hell of a lot less, while also throwing out the best INSTANT HEAL in the game (shielding other players), because this game has no dispel mechanic.

 

Hybrid sorc is the most stupidly OP ranged class I have ever played in any MMO and other then merc/commando the EASIEST ranged class I have played in an MMO. Hell freakin arcane mages (facerollus maximus from WoW) were harder because you at least had to do things fast on them (twitchy). Do me a favor, make some alts with your friend. You be a sentinel, he can be the sage. When he outdpses you by 200 k? Tell me how balanced this game is. Have fun being stunned by everyone, popping a trinket, then being stunned again.

 

With multiple hybrid sorcs? Have fun being aoe mezzed when their shield breaks (can't trinket that), then being knocked back a few times and not having your resolve bar fill up. Then being stunned.

 

Ever wonder why there is a lot more sorc then marauders? Cus people as bad as you can equal the damage your friend does...

Edited February 12, 2012 by biowareftw

[Ahebish]

I'm not asking for a nerf to legitimate specs. I'm asking for an end to the unintended hybrid spec that resulted from poor oversight from the devs. There's a reason they're nerfing the assassin hybrid spec, it's overpowered/difficult to balance without breaking the trees when played as intended.

 

Define irony: Operatives are OP

 

Yet sorcs get a 3 second blind when their bubble pops.

 

Operatives get a 1.5 second KD which 9 times out of 10 pops their bubble.

 

Assassins, get 1 knockdown, 1 knockback, and a gap closer.

 

Sorcs can run through hazards, have a gap closer, can heal and DPS... And a good sorc is unkillable 1v1 in the 50's bracket.

 

Say what you will but trust me I to am a PVP god as some so eloquently pointed out to the OP.

 

Yes I am that efing good.

 

I have 2 level 50 pvp characters I have no life so all I do is PVP. Why? Because it's fun killing operatives and scoundrels on an overpowered class that is grossly overlooked. Until you fight me.

 

Like the OP... I never lose to people 1v1.... Short of "FULL" BM's I never lose at all to anyone in a 1v1.

 

There are some balance issues in game the OP is just pointing out a hybrid spec issue that most people complain about in PVP specifically against sages and sorcs. Why? Because 85% of the community plays them. So naturally they stand out more.

 

Here's my proposal that should appease 3 different parties here.

 

1. Reverse the nerf on scoundrels and operatives.

 

2. Leave sorcs/sage hybrid builds alone

 

3. Consider the fact Scoundrels and Operatives NEED to be the anti-tank and anti-healer class of the game.

 

4. L2P - and stop biznitchin about things that are clearly not overpowered while things that are blatently overpowered with 6 other classes in the game gets overlooked. <--- See what I did there? I included my own overpowered class in this statement.

 

My 2 cents

 

/sitnspin_ifittickles_bounce

 

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ahebish

[Adzzy]

The Problems with sorcs is that they scale so much better than any other classes in terms of class stacking that they can win even if they only have sorcs on their team.

 

not really, the only real issue in warzones of serious sorcerer stacking, is extricate bounces (which is why i think it needs to apply a 15s debuff to stop the bouncing)

 

2 pts vs 2 sorcs, the pts should win, they just need to think they're melo and play iso ball.

[Tumri]

Ok so let me get this straight.

Turmi: Good player

Argaloth: Good player

Shawa: Good player (assassin assumed with protection)

Rakkim & Endorn: Bad players, but propped up so well by an OP class that their damage together is almost as much as yours.

Volane: Good player, but got a raw deal because sorcs are OP.

 

On the contrary actually Endorn is a guildie who's been a sorc since launch and doesn't use the full hybrid spec(no backlash, which is probably the best part about it..). He also doesn't focus on damage and goes for the objective nearly 100% of the time in huttball. If he used the PvP hybrid spec with backlash and focused on doing damage I'm sure he would have done multiple times what he did that game. I actually screenshotted that game because it was two pre-mades from within our guild facing off. I posted it here because literally all but three non-guildies were Sorcerers. At launch there was a big Sorcerer population but it wasn't more than 20% for sure. After launch the population has steadily grown to nearly 40%(Maybe more on some servers). It's getting difficult to find anyone that isn't a Sorcerer or Mercenary. This isn't ok.

[YMIHere]

The Problems with sorcs is that they scale so much better than any other classes in terms of class stacking that they can win even if they only have sorcs on their team.

 

imagine 1 vs 1 PT vs sorcs with same gear same skill etc .maybe 70% of the the time maybe higher the PT will win.

 

2 PTs vs 2 sorcs with same gear and skill 80% of the time maybe higher the sorcs team will win hands down. why? they can just whirlwind one of the PTs then kill the other the PT. on the other hand the PT's dont have any CC except for 2 stuns which the sorcs can break easy so the fights breaks down into 2 vs 1 in favor of the sorcs. not to mention heals etc.

 

3 PT's vs 3 sorcs with the same gear and skill the sorcs team will win 95% of the time

 

and so on and so forth

 

 

my point is that there is no penalty for having too many sorcs on 1 team and on the contrary having too many sorcs in 1 team compliments eash other which is what is happening in wz's now since many people realized this and so they rolled sorcs

 

Do we just assume that sorcs get the first hit? PTs have 30m range abilities too, and 8 seconds of CC immunity. Assuming one PT gets CC, why doesn't the other pop his bubble? Use Kolto Overload? Maybe even interrupt one of the sorcs so he can't proc Wrath. Tried again after 4 seconds? Time for a stun, oh hey, my buddy is back. It's probably too much trouble for him to interrupt the other guys horrible attempt at healing if he tries to use the one decent unspecced heal he has.

[Ahebish]

Do we just assume that sorcs get the first hit? PTs have 30m range abilities too, and 8 seconds of CC immunity. Assuming one PT gets CC, why doesn't the other pop his bubble? Use Kolto Overload? Maybe even interrupt one of the sorcs so he can't proc Wrath. Tried again after 4 seconds? Time for a stun, oh hey, my buddy is back. It's probably too much trouble for him to interrupt the other guys horrible attempt at healing if he tries to use the one decent unspecced heal he has.

 

PT's are not mercs either.

 

1/2 of our damage is at less than 10m range.

 

Don't confuse our range abilities with mercs whom have 90% of their skills at 30m range.

 

What we have at 30m range that mercs don't have is utility to get within 10m on a sorc. A merc doesn't have to... but a PT has to to maximize their damage output.

 

At least until the sorc learns to kite and heal at the same time... then said sorc becomes unkillable 1v1.

 

Which leads us back to square 1 and the OP's post.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ahebish

[Darth_Ricky]

What is amusing is that you don't know your friend is a much better player then you. You are the second easiest class to play in the game and he is the hardest class to play in the game.

 

I can lead dmg most games as marauder/sent also.

 

so lets see

 

if lite armor sorc get top dmg its cos sorc is so easy

 

if you & the op get it its cos your so pro

 

LOL

 

ppl need 2 have moar kidz theres 2 much only child qq fillin up the forums haha

 

 

no bro your not the best if u lose maybe u just got beat lol

 

how do i know ur not the best,, cos the best dont come cryin to forum after they lost a wz

[YMIHere]

On the contrary actually Endorn is a guildie who's been a sorc since launch and doesn't use the full hybrid spec(no backlash, which is probably the best part about it..). He also doesn't focus on damage and goes for the objective nearly 100% of the time in huttball. If he used the PvP hybrid spec with backlash and focused on doing damage I'm sure he would have done multiple times what he did that game. I actually screenshotted that game because it was two pre-mades from within our guild facing off. I posted it here because literally all but three non-guildies were Sorcerers. At launch there was a big Sorcerer population but it wasn't more than 20% for sure. After launch the population has steadily grown to nearly 40%(Maybe more on some servers). It's getting difficult to find anyone that isn't a Sorcerer or Mercenary. This isn't ok.

 

I should note that I meant no actual offense to any of these players, just being sarcastic. I agree about Backlash, and I would expect to lose some damage to pick up that skill. As it turns out, I gain instead. I don't feel overpowered, but I haven't gotten any other classes to 50 to gauge against. My scoundrel just hit 40 today, and while I know that Huttball isn't his game (unlike the sorc), he blows people up a lot quicker (which is what he's supposed to do). Not being 50 or personally inspecting everyone I kill I don't really know what advantages and/or disadvantages are in play.

 

Personally I have no problem losing damage for a CC ninja build, I'm just not sure that it's the hybrid spec that's OP as opposed to the full specs being UP. Without template 50s on the test server I don't know how they're deciding what to nerf.

[CaptainInsano]

This Sorc hybrid spec that gives them about 5 different CCs needs to be brought in line just like the Assassin hybrid specs (which still made the Assassin a mediocre PvP class) or BW is clearly trollin. Reminds me of the Bright Wizard fiasco in Warhammer. Same PvP team in fact, go figure.

[YMIHere]

PT's are not mercs either.

 

1/2 of our damage is at less than 10m range.

 

Don't confuse our range abilities with mercs whom have 90% of their skills at 30m range.

 

What we have at 30m range that mercs don't have is utility to get within 10m on a sorc. A merc doesn't have to... but a PT has to to maximize their damage output.

 

At least until the sorc learns to kite and heal at the same time... then said sorc becomes unkillable 1v1.

 

Which leads us back to square 1 and the OP's post.

 

And I didn't say you had to damage from 30m, why not taunt and have them waste GCDs or even WW figuring it out. How about a Jet Charge, even if you get CC'd he has to turn and run before attacking your partner or face a full melee wrath in 8 seconds. I'm going by what's on torhead under Bounty Hunter and Pyrotech.

 

A hybrid sorc isn't kiting and healing for long against a powertech. My only instant is the bubble, which doesn't help my sorc brother at all because they share the same lockout. So I stop to use my 3 second heal and hope it crits(totally see where the inflated numbers on Dark Infusion come from now, damn torhead) assuming you didn't have Jet Charge up to interrupt it. Once I've used two CCs you've got full resolve and I've got a melee problem that can instacatch me every 15 seconds without worry of a white bar of "Oh, it's time to die now." My slow has a cooldown double it's duration, yours can have 100% uptime. Even without Jet Charge you've got me once CC is up, and I fill that resolve bar way faster than I empty the health bar.

 

How is this supposed to be way in favor of the hybrid now that it's two on one? 8 seconds of CC to try burning down a tank class that has a heal? Why do we even do this hypothetical battle stuff? We need templates on the test server so we can duke it out before nerfing everything.

[Vales]

What is amusing is that you don't know your friend is a much better player then you. You are the second easiest class to play in the game and he is the hardest class to play in the game.

 

I can lead dmg most games as marauder/sent also. FYI it is MUCH easier to be a marauder then a sent. Why? Cus you aren't fighting mostly hybrid sorcs/mercs and SiN's and you aren't chain stunned the entire game. When I play huttball latenight against republic I absolutely slaughter them because they are not made up of just classes that can ranged stun.

 

Just because I can lead dmg on a sentinel doesn't mean hybrid sorc is balanced. I can do 100-200 k more dmg on the sorc/sage and die a whole hell of a lot less, while also throwing out the best INSTANT HEAL in the game (shielding other players), because this game has no dispel mechanic.

 

Hybrid sorc is the most stupidly OP ranged class I have ever played in any MMO and other then merc/commando the EASIEST ranged class I have played in an MMO. Hell freakin arcane mages (facerollus maximus from WoW) were harder because you at least had to do things fast on them (twitchy). Do me a favor, make some alts with your friend. You be a sentinel, he can be the sage. When he outdpses you by 200 k? Tell me how balanced this game is. Have fun being stunned by everyone, popping a trinket, then being stunned again.

 

With multiple hybrid sorcs? Have fun being aoe mezzed when their shield breaks (can't trinket that), then being knocked back a few times and not having your resolve bar fill up. Then being stunned.

 

Ever wonder why there is a lot more sorc then marauders? Cus people as bad as you can equal the damage your friend does...

 

Oh you again bathing in your selfproclaimed glory "CUZ SENT AND MARAS SO HARDZ TO PLAI GUIZ!!!!1111"

[Smashbrother]

The only things I find OP about this class is that their bubble counts towards defense/protection medals (i forget the exact name) and thus they can get more medals easier than other healer classes.

 

The other thing I find OP about them is that their knockback can have a root. Whoever thought a goddamn AOE KNOCKBACK can also have a root that doesn't break on damage needs to be shot.

 

Other than those two things, I'm cool.

[Vales]

It's absurd how much arguing is going on. At least half the players of this game know that Sage/Sorcs are op'd in pvp. It's cool that someone with experience and logic is spelling it out but there's no way it should be necessary at this point.

 

Just like Affliction Warlocks in S2 in WoW were supposed to be and after nerfs became the second worst class in the "competetive" environments?

99% in these forums do not know what they are talking about. The masses are often more wrong than right and easily manipulated.

[YMIHere]

The only things I find OP about this class is that their bubble counts towards defense/protection medals (i forget the exact name) and thus they can get more medals easier than other healer classes.

 

It counts for healing, and I agree.

 

The other thing I find OP about them is that their knockback can have a root. Whoever thought a gosh darn AOE KNOCKBACK can also have a root that doesn't break on damage needs to be shot.

 

Other than those two things, I'm cool.

 

It does break on damage, but only after 2 seconds. This is a death sentence in the fires of huttball though, at least for me.

[Nedreep]

As a sage who has played a similar hybrid to the one your all ranting about I can truthfully say I don't like it.

 

You are so much more mobile in full Balance that I only play that way.

 

You can call me bad if you like (for not using hybrid spec) but I almost always top the score board. 450k+ damage and 11 medals is not out of reach in strait balance if played well.

 

The thing you all have to understand is while that is a LOT of damage a lot of it is AE damage. It is not the same as a Sent or Marauder doing 300k damage as that is all single target damage.

 

Single target damage and focus fire kills people. The AE damage helps... but its somewhat scoreboard padding. This is even more so in the hybrid spec your all crying about as it does away with DOT damage to add even more AE.

 

There aren't that many Sents or Marauders around. However if played well I think they may be the best pvp class.

[Sayuri-chan]

And I didn't say you had to damage from 30m, why not taunt and have them waste GCDs or even WW figuring it out. How about a Jet Charge, even if you get CC'd he has to turn and run before attacking your partner or face a full melee wrath in 8 seconds. I'm going by what's on torhead under Bounty Hunter and Pyrotech.

 

A hybrid sorc isn't kiting and healing for long against a powertech. My only instant is the bubble, which doesn't help my sorc brother at all because they share the same lockout. So I stop to use my 3 second heal and hope it crits(totally see where the inflated numbers on Dark Infusion come from now, damn torhead) assuming you didn't have Jet Charge up to interrupt it. Once I've used two CCs you've got full resolve and I've got a melee problem that can instacatch me every 15 seconds without worry of a white bar of "Oh, it's time to die now." My slow has a cooldown double it's duration, yours can have 100% uptime. Even without Jet Charge you've got me once CC is up, and I fill that resolve bar way faster than I empty the health bar.

 

How is this supposed to be way in favor of the hybrid now that it's two on one? 8 seconds of CC to try burning down a tank class that has a heal? Why do we even do this hypothetical battle stuff? We need templates on the test server so we can duke it out before nerfing everything.

 

IF even one of the PT's spec as a tank their damage output would be terribly low that they cant even take out a bubble with 3 hits. now assuming the fight would be 2 hybrids vs 1 pt tank and 1 pyro dps they can just CC the pyro dps since it has no protection whatsoever from CC and just proceed to kill the tank PT in which they can just slow him down then dps him while the other PT is mercilessly CCed before he can do anything, now you would say that he can just trinket it up but that way he would be vulnerable to another CC which would **** him up now after all those CC the tank PT would be almost dead and before he can join the fight the tank PT would have died already.

[Abadus]

What is amusing is that you don't know your friend is a much better player then you. You are the second easiest class to play in the game and he is the hardest class to play in the game.

 

I can lead dmg most games as marauder/sent also. FYI it is MUCH easier to be a marauder then a sent. Why? Cus you aren't fighting mostly hybrid sorcs/mercs and SiN's and you aren't chain stunned the entire game. When I play huttball latenight against republic I absolutely slaughter them because they are not made up of just classes that can ranged stun.

 

Just because I can lead dmg on a sentinel doesn't mean hybrid sorc is balanced. I can do 100-200 k more dmg on the sorc/sage and die a whole hell of a lot less, while also throwing out the best INSTANT HEAL in the game (shielding other players), because this game has no dispel mechanic.

 

Hybrid sorc is the most stupidly OP ranged class I have ever played in any MMO and other then merc/commando the EASIEST ranged class I have played in an MMO. Hell freakin arcane mages (facerollus maximus from WoW) were harder because you at least had to do things fast on them (twitchy). Do me a favor, make some alts with your friend. You be a sentinel, he can be the sage. When he outdpses you by 200 k? Tell me how balanced this game is. Have fun being stunned by everyone, popping a trinket, then being stunned again.

 

With multiple hybrid sorcs? Have fun being aoe mezzed when their shield breaks (can't trinket that), then being knocked back a few times and not having your resolve bar fill up. Then being stunned.

 

Ever wonder why there is a lot more sorc then marauders? Cus people as bad as you can equal the damage your friend does...

 

Funny thing is we talk about how much harder a marauder is to play than sorc. My friend is good we are both good. Just because my class is "easier" does not make me bad LOL. We are equally skilled we have been playing together for longer than some of the people posting have been alive

 

Sorcs can run through hazards and this makes them OP in huttball? How about jumping over everything, or out of the pit or going dam near invulnerable and just running through the fire... O yeah I am not talking about sorc...

 

The best part of this thread is it is based on LOL sorc players are bad everyone else is good but sorc is so OP a bad player beats a good player. If you can't beat a sorc 1 on 1 you either got out geared or you need to re-think your strat. Besides if you can't beat a class but it is a close fight then be happy. Maybe they had their cool downs and you did not. My spec is VERY proc based and a simple interrupt can ruin my day. I probally get interrupted 2-3 times in about 4 hours of war-zones though.

 

The above quote and the OP keep saying this and it is FUNNY. I can out damage a sorc but they are still OP. IF sorcs got nurfed and you were doing 2x their damage every game would you then be op or is that balance for you?

[Daecollo]

I love tracer missilin' sorcs.

[Abadus]

OP SORC IS OP! PROOF BELOW!

 

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/56885/OP_SORC_WHOOT.jpg

 

O and look at Elafir he is a gimpy sniper, and he beat my damage Had had a bad game though he is usually 450K+ but he is in T3 raid gear so humm maybe gear matters in this game.

 

Damage is up but healing is down in this one. Funny how that works.

 

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/56885/427K_Damage.jpg

 

The thing is I did not just take my champion put it on and call it a day. Using things like math I have gone and pulled the mods for other gear, even gear from other classes to put in mine to make it better. I use the assassin belt and bracers because the stats are better. I use the champ belt over the battle-master belt because it is better. I use my brain I build my toon. I don't just put on the cruise control and expect to own.

[Abadus]

I love tracer missilin' sorcs.

 

When I hear grav round my first instinct is to LOS and heal. Because they hurt hard and unless I get the first hit in 1 on 1 vs grav/tracer I am probably gonna lose. Guaranteed loss if they have heir bubble up....

[Daecollo]

When I hear grav round my first instinct is to LOS and heal. Because they hurt hard and unless I get the first hit in 1 on 1 vs grav/tracer I am probably gonna lose. Guaranteed loss if they have heir bubble up....

 

Pick up yer' dress n' run! *tracer follows you around the corner *

 

P.S. I'm afraid of Marauders/Vanguards/Powertechs/Sentinels..

Edited February 12, 2012 by Daecollo

[Abadus]

Mauraders and sents are MEAN. CC and invunerability. Plus I knock back and they just jump... Well I try not to knock back unless they already jumped.

 

Humm I was going to type the classes I fear but there is no class that I just dominate 1 on 1. I dominate people with 12K HP but no certain class. Against a good player it is 50/50. Stealthers hurt bad and Mercs/commandos are mean. If warriors have their jump up I am gonna get hurt as well. I do best when the other team does not notice me

[blackadda]

Mauraders and sents are MEAN. CC and invunerability. Plus I knock back and they just jump... Well I try not to knock back unless they already jumped.

 

Humm I was going to type the classes I fear but there is no class that I just dominate 1 on 1. I dominate people with 12K HP but no certain class. Against a good player it is 50/50. Stealthers hurt bad and Mercs/commandos are mean. If warriors have their jump up I am gonna get hurt as well. I do best when the other team does not notice me

 

 

GOOD Marauders will put up 500-600k dmg in a huttball without any pocket healer assistance... and most of that is *single target* damage.

 

Compared to that 600k AOE from a sorc is very tame.

 

There is one common factor however, if you know someones a wrecking machine, you shut them down by focus fire... 600k dmg marauders become 200k dmg marauders PDQ when you focus fire them on sight... same with Sorcs..

 

Basically, Sorcs just arent OP in PVP. Every class with solid burst damage can kill them *easily*.. starting with Stunlock Operative/Smug and "Pyro" BH/Trooper. They have utility.. and they are great at huttball, but beyond that they are knows simply as "targets"

[Abadus]

To the OP, here is a screen shot of me owning you!

 

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/56885/Owning_You.jpg