Anyone think that the EU has lost its way?

[Lomedae]

Am I the only one who clicked on this thread thinking we were going to be discussing the European Union?

 

No, I was intrigued for that reason as well. :-)

 

Anyways, about the EU - I am not too familiar with it but from what I read in this thread I can get the gist of it. My take is that EU is trying to be more "adult" whilst the movies are most certainly very adolescent in themes. Not sure that really works, they are trying to perhaps legitimize the universe where its not really needed, the fans are pretty clear what they like about it no need to transform it into something else.

 

It is interesting to see that even in EU they stick to the outdated (pre) 70s belief that technology would build bigger and bigger, when we have know for decades that miniaturization is where it's at, nanobots not war machines the size of skyscrapers. Would have expected some sort of evolution towards "realism" in the EU.

[Vecke]

Personally, I'd love to see a reset with one major continuity law.

 

No book can take place within 25 years of Thrawn's fall (I'd prefer nothing for 25 years after ROTJ, but people love the Thrawn books, so I'm willing to concede there).

 

Give the heroes of our movies their well-earned happy ending. Let them live in peace and prosperity for 20 years. It was 20 years between the prequels and the OT, let that be the case again.

 

Then, hand a solid author the reality and say, "It's been 25 years. Luke is a Jedi master. The Republic has flourished for a quarter of a century." Let that author create a new era, that isn't about the Skywalkers and Solos. Start fresh with a new era and new heroes and new threats.

 

I just didn't like that after ROTJ, all the sacrifices they made, all the work, was for nothing. I agree that it negates the entire point of the end of the saga.

 

So give those heroes their due. Let them live happily ever after. And in the new books, let them be the mentors. Have an established and stable Republic again.

 

The EU books as they are now feel to me like a kid that just got home from watching ROTJ, so he gets out his action figures and starts playing, taking his Emperor toy and immediately saying, "So you thought I was dead? NO! HAHAHAHAHAHA! I'm Back!"

 

It just all feels like weak excuses to keep the characters from the trilogy adventuring, but in doing so, they completely ruin the movies.

 

I think they should have some guts, create some compelling brand new characters, and start fresh, 25 years later. Luke, Leia, and Han (and the others) earned their happy endings. Let them have it.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Vecke

[MustrumRidcully]

The Thrawn Trilogy and the X-Wing/Wraith series were my favorite parts of the EU.

 

The rest is... meh. Some even crap.

 

I liked Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Universe with all their "grittiness". So I don't think I am against it per se at all. But the way it was done in the EU just doesn't satisfy me. IT doesn't feel like Star Wars to me.

 

If I were to remake the EU:

 

1) Wraith/Rogue/Thrawn stay.

2) Prequels get reworked.

3) Everything else goes.

 

Further rules:

1) The original cast deserves a happy ending for their job. Use them if you must, but avoid over use. Establish a new cast of characters we can care about (and if needed, kill some off. Obi Wan, after all, also died.)

2) Don't add even more silly super weapons.

3) Don't undo everything that the heroes achieved in the movies. The Rebel Alliance was a success. The New Republic is there to stay for a long time.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

I don't buy the 'oh ROTJ was victory and the heroes should rest'...

 

Are you kidding? there's an entire Imperial fleet out there, and tons of people who would want fo fill the power vaccuum left by the Emperor and Vader. The Rebellion was FAR from over.... The victory was in the defeat of the Emperor sure, but the Empire is still quite alot larger than the Rebel Alliance.....

 

It would take years and years and decades (which it did)....just look at the situation in the middle east here in the real world...its never just gonna be 'over'. Osoma Bin Laden is dead, but its not like 'oh we won the terrorists all are gone now'...

[PeepsMcJuggs]

I don't buy the 'oh ROTJ was victory and the heroes should rest'...

 

Are you kidding? there's an entire Imperial fleet out there, and tons of people who would want fo fill the power vaccuum left by the Emperor and Vader. The Rebellion was FAR from over.... The victory was in the defeat of the Emperor sure, but the Empire is still quite alot larger than the Rebel Alliance.....

 

It would take years and years and decades (which it did)....just look at the situation in the middle east here in the real world...its never just gonna be 'over'. Osoma Bin Laden is dead, but its not like 'oh we won the terrorists all are gone now'...

 

I don't know what you're talking about.

.

[BrandonSM]

Personally, I'd love to see a reset with one major continuity law.

 

No book can take place within 25 years of Thrawn's fall (I'd prefer nothing for 25 years after ROTJ, but people love the Thrawn books, so I'm willing to concede there).

 

Give the heroes of our movies their well-earned happy ending. Let them live in peace and prosperity for 20 years. It was 20 years between the prequels and the OT, let that be the case again.

 

it.

 

Hmm, yes and no. I would like no book about the Skywalkers and Solo's after 25 yrs after Thrawn. And then have other people.

 

 

The authors of the EU have messed with the Skywalkers so much to the point anyone with the last name Skywalker is a god.

[Intarabus]

It's just awful writing. Like a previous poster mentioned, Sauron coming back after the ring was destroyed? Any story worth reading has a plot! EU has no plot. If there is an overall story arc it is that there is a new, even more powerful, even more destructive magic/alien/immortal/recycled enemy that can one up the guy from last week.

 

Main problem is, I think, that Lucas and the other main guys of his never really saw the success of the EU coming. In the first run, there were just some novels and Marvel got the comics license and most of their comics sucked.

When Timothy Zahn wrote his novels, there was not going on much in the franchise. Everyone loved it, and then - boom - tons of comics, games and novels came out. Some were (and are) good, some not, you have not the feeling that anyone can really control what comes out.

But overall, the continuity/canon stuff is still a little better handled than the total confusing stuff in DC and Marvel universums.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

Main problem is, I think, that Lucas and the other main guys of his never really saw the success of the EU coming. In the first run, there were just some novels and Marvel got the comics license and most of their comics sucked.

When Timothy Zahn wrote his novels, there was not going on much in the franchise. Everyone loved it, and then - boom - tons of comics, games and novels came out. Some were (and are) good, some not, you have not the feeling that anyone can really control what comes out.

But overall, the continuity/canon stuff is still a little better handled than the total confusing stuff in DC and Marvel universums.

 

Not to mention Star Trek. If you have to give the EU that they at least try and keep continuity in check (besides how Bantam wrote books here and there in no order)

[DarkMorlin]

I like Vecke's idea of a twenty year break for the ROTJ heroes, and them appearing as mentors for a new generation of heroes, much like Obi-wan and Yoda did.

 

As for Firesaber statement about the empire still having a viable war effort and not just giving up, look at the aftermath of the Civil War. Many in the South wanted to fight on, the President and many of his younger generals envisioned a Vietnam-type war of resistance. Robert E. Lee unilaterally ordered the surrender of the South, and everyone just....gave up.

 

I think there is probably room for both versions. The Empire is too divided to accept an overall surrender order, there are too many ambitious Moffs with control of entire sectors. There would undoubtedly be dozens of mini-empires, allowing some interesting stories about their defeat, or continuing independence. Still, the heart of the Empire died at Endor. The Emperor and Vader held absolute power, without them there is no central governing body to hold the rest together.

 

The best way to continue the series is that a small group of renegade sith, or force cultists, or whatever got hold of an old Sith holocron.....much like it was done with the Old Rebuplic era. After 20 years of planning, building up, training a new generation of Sith, they rise up to challenge the Jedi once again....and our ROTJ heroes children and disciples must rise to the challenge of defending the Republic!

[Prime_Knight]

Most people make the mistake of thinking that anything after Zahn is canon of any level. It's not EU-Expanded Universe....it AU-Alternate Universe. There were some good stories after Zahn, but most of it is garbage.

 

I have heard there is a Leelandchee, some kind of canon device. The solution is simple, declare everything after the Thrawn trilogy to be AU-Alternate Universe, and start over.

 

Write out a MAIN story arc, that makes sense, which doesn't include the galactic government changing hands between the Empire, the Alliance, and magic aliens every few months.

 

Then, allow authors to write approved stories that do not damage the main arc. We don't need dozens of Death stars, system killers, planet eaters, ect. Let's say a new sith order arises, with dozens/hundreds of sith lords to combat Luke's new order of Jedi. A Star Wars story can be very interesting on a planetary scale, you don't have to alter the course of the galaxy in every paragraph.

 

Take the Batman stories for example. Batman mostly just does his thing in Gotham city. Sure, Superman is off fighting Galactic scale enemies, but does that make the story of Batman hunting down some psychotic murderer any less interesting or compelling? Let Luke be superman, surely there is enough room in the galaxy for a few Batmans?

 

This is basically what I do in my head. There's the Original Trilogy, The Zahn novels, and a few other books thrown in like X-wing books. Everything else is like an alternate universe.

[Aitix]

I like Vecke's idea of a twenty year break for the ROTJ heroes, and them appearing as mentors for a new generation of heroes, much like Obi-wan and Yoda did.

 

As for Firesaber statement about the empire still having a viable war effort and not just giving up, look at the aftermath of the Civil War. Many in the South wanted to fight on, the President and many of his younger generals envisioned a Vietnam-type war of resistance. Robert E. Lee unilaterally ordered the surrender of the South, and everyone just....gave up.

 

I think there is probably room for both versions. The Empire is too divided to accept an overall surrender order, there are too many ambitious Moffs with control of entire sectors. There would undoubtedly be dozens of mini-empires, allowing some interesting stories about their defeat, or continuing independence. Still, the heart of the Empire died at Endor. The Emperor and Vader held absolute power, without them there is no central governing body to hold the rest together.

 

The best way to continue the series is that a small group of renegade sith, or force cultists, or whatever got hold of an old Sith holocron.....much like it was done with the Old Rebuplic era. After 20 years of planning, building up, training a new generation of Sith, they rise up to challenge the Jedi once again....and our ROTJ heroes children and disciples must rise to the challenge of defending the Republic!

 

No. This is exactly where most EU authors go wrong. How is another Jedi vs. Sith plot any different than any other Jedi vs. Sith plot we've had in the entire franchise? If we want more Jedi vs. Sith, why not have a series take place during the Late Sith Wars, which, mind you, lasted a millenium? Or the Sith Wars before that time period? Why can't authors come up with an enemy besides the Sith? And no, not something like the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Better yet, why can't ROTJ(or at least the Thrawn trilogy) be an end to all the conflict in the galaxy? The EU authors that write most of the post-ROTJ crap think that there needs to be a big threat to the galaxy. So then we get crap like the Yuuzhan Vong and Darth Krayt's One Sith.

 

And guess what? Because of that, what happens in ROTJ is meaningless. The galaxy isn't at peace. The Sith aren't wiped out from existence. Darth Vader's sacrifice doesn't matter anymore.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Aitix

[JeedaiFiresaber]

And guess what? Because of that, what happens in ROTJ is meaningless. The galaxy isn't at peace. The Sith aren't wiped out from existence. Darth Vader's sacrifice doesn't matter anymore.

 

Darth Vader's sacrifice brought the Force into balance. When Darth Bane destroyed all the other Sith and brought the Rule of Two along, the Force was thrown out of balance with years and years of the Jedi growing complacent and full of themselves in a way.

 

Anakin/Vader's actions completely wiped the entire slate clean.

 

The Republic/Empire/Rebillion have nothing to do with his sacrifice, more of an effect of it, not the reason.

[KBSIP]

Writers for most of the post movie #6 universe suffer from a bad case of GRRM syndrome (george R R martin). That is, they kill off popular characters who are still in the process of being developed, or beloved faces that maintain the familiarity of a series and keep it firmly grounded in the beloved realms of the original.

[DarthFanatic]

No. This is exactly where most EU authors go wrong. How is another Jedi vs. Sith plot any different than any other Jedi vs. Sith plot we've had in the entire franchise? If we want more Jedi vs. Sith, why not have a series take place during the Late Sith Wars, which, mind you, lasted a millenium? Or the Sith Wars before that time period? Why can't authors come up with an enemy besides the Sith? And no, not something like the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Better yet, why can't ROTJ(or at least the Thrawn trilogy) be an end to all the conflict in the galaxy? The EU authors that write most of the post-ROTJ crap think that there needs to be a big threat to the galaxy. So then we get crap like the Yuuzhan Vong and Darth Krayt's One Sith.

 

And guess what? Because of that, what happens in ROTJ is meaningless. The galaxy isn't at peace. The Sith aren't wiped out from existence. Darth Vader's sacrifice doesn't matter anymore.

 

 

We can't even achieve world wide peace on our planet. Now imagine sustaining peace in the a galaxy filled with hundreds (thousands?) of planets with their own culture, nationality, ambitions, etc. and that's not even including all the ancient threats or possible things laying beyond the known galaxy. Simply, maintaining galaxy wide peace is lofty but impossible on a galactic scale. Conflict will inevitably occur at some point whether from within (Rebels trying to secure a legitimate government with remnants of the Empire left) or from the outside (Yuuzhan Vong, Sith returning, or Aboleth for examples).

 

Darth Vader's sacrifice was meaningful because he stopped the Empire by disposing it of its leadership for enough time to give the Rebels the chance to "catch up." Thanks to Vader, the Rebels had a much better chance of retaking the galaxy and giving Luke time to train further so he could later challenge Palpatine. And btw, I really dislike the Dark Emperor idea because it does belittle Vader's sacrifice a bit but he still stalled the Empire.

 

Edit: Firesaber did a better job of me explaining why Vader's sacrifice was important to the force. I just described how Vader's sacrifice affected the galaxy for the Republic/Empire.

Edited February 4, 2012 by DarthFanatic

[Omnitheo]

I own over 100 of the novels, and I am a huge canon buff.

 

I'm seeing a lot of hate for EU lore here, much of which is unwarranted. I agree that the big 3 are still in the spotlight too much, but I believe this has more to do with Lucas's refusal to allow them to be killed off. People complain that such heroes seem invincible, yet they also cry that Chewie was killed.

 

Chewie received more stories and attention AFTER he was killed than he had for a long time. (He had basically just become a glorified baby sitter for the kids)

 

People complain about there being one darkside/sith enemy/plot after another, but then complain about the Yuuzhan Vong (perhaps the most innovative and game changing enemies ever to be introduced into the lore).

 

I get that it's a crazy hectic galaxy, governments rise and fall, and the time of the Skywalkers is perhaps the most tumultuous period in galactic history, but much of this is explained through the novels. Mace Windu would have called this the Shatterpoint of galactic history.

 

As for the events of RotJ being insignificant, as there are still other sith out there in the galaxy, you would need to know a bit more about the lore. Darth Vader and Darth Sidious aren't just any sith, they are sith of the Rule of Two. These are the decendants of a thousand year line of sith, who themselves are the remnants of a Sith Empire which for 2 thousand years before and waged war against the republic, plunging it into a dark age.

 

The Rule of Two Sith have become more powerful than any previous sith empire before, and through their machinations, were able to conquer the galaxy, as two (as opposed to the armies of millions who failed every other attempt). In the thousand years between Bane and Vader, only one sith from the Rule of Two had ever returned to the light side (And it was explained as him going mad). This means that not only did Vader (Now Anakin Skywalker once more) Finally destroy the true sith legacy once and for all, but he managed to turn away from the power that was the Sith, unlike any before him.

 

Anyone else left in the galaxy lacked the true knowledge of the sith, they were darkside users, or maybe learned a scant few details from working for Sidious. Some were remnents of older sith empires, but they had been absent from the galactic scene for millenia.

 

I would like to see Luke Han and Leia retired, I was disappointing that Jacen and Anakin (Solo) are no more, but there aren't always happy endings. It's all just a story, and I'll enjoy it for that.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

No. This is exactly where most EU authors go wrong. How is another Jedi vs. Sith plot any different than any other Jedi vs. Sith plot we've had in the entire franchise? If we want more Jedi vs. Sith, why not have a series take place during the Late Sith Wars, which, mind you, lasted a millenium? Or the Sith Wars before that time period? Why can't authors come up with an enemy besides the Sith? And no, not something like the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Better yet, why can't ROTJ(or at least the Thrawn trilogy) be an end to all the conflict in the galaxy? The EU authors that write most of the post-ROTJ crap think that there needs to be a big threat to the galaxy. So then we get crap like the Yuuzhan Vong and Darth Krayt's One Sith.

 

And guess what? Because of that, what happens in ROTJ is meaningless. The galaxy isn't at peace. The Sith aren't wiped out from existence. Darth Vader's sacrifice doesn't matter anymore.

 

I agree. The story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. His rise, fall and redemption.

 

There are a lot of otherwise talented writers who want to write stories. The publishers want to make a ton of money, so instead of just writing a good story in its own right, they try to tack on the Star Wars logo. The EU novels would be just as well (or poorly) written if they mentioned nothing from Star Wars.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

I own over 100 of the novels, and I am a huge canon buff.

 

I'm seeing a lot of hate for EU lore here, much of which is unwarranted. I agree that the big 3 are still in the spotlight too much, but I believe this has more to do with Lucas's refusal to allow them to be killed off. People complain that such heroes seem invincible, yet they also cry that Chewie was killed.

 

Chewie received more stories and attention AFTER he was killed than he had for a long time. (He had basically just become a glorified baby sitter for the kids)

 

People complain about there being one darkside/sith enemy/plot after another, but then complain about the Yuuzhan Vong (perhaps the most innovative and game changing enemies ever to be introduced into the lore).

 

I get that it's a crazy hectic galaxy, governments rise and fall, and the time of the Skywalkers is perhaps the most tumultuous period in galactic history, but much of this is explained through the novels. Mace Windu would have called this the Shatterpoint of galactic history.

 

As for the events of RotJ being insignificant, as there are still other sith out there in the galaxy, you would need to know a bit more about the lore. Darth Vader and Darth Sidious aren't just any sith, they are sith of the Rule of Two. These are the decendants of a thousand year line of sith, who themselves are the remnants of a Sith Empire which for 2 thousand years before and waged war against the republic, plunging it into a dark age.

 

The Rule of Two Sith have become more powerful than any previous sith empire before, and through their machinations, were able to conquer the galaxy, as two (as opposed to the armies of millions who failed every other attempt). In the thousand years between Bane and Vader, only one sith from the Rule of Two had ever returned to the light side (And it was explained as him going mad). This means that not only did Vader (Now Anakin Skywalker once more) Finally destroy the true sith legacy once and for all, but he managed to turn away from the power that was the Sith, unlike any before him.

 

Anyone else left in the galaxy lacked the true knowledge of the sith, they were darkside users, or maybe learned a scant few details from working for Sidious. Some were remnents of older sith empires, but they had been absent from the galactic scene for millenia.

 

I would like to see Luke Han and Leia retired, I was disappointing that Jacen and Anakin (Solo) are no more, but there aren't always happy endings. It's all just a story, and I'll enjoy it for that.

 

well thought out post. i agree.

[DarthFanatic]

I agree. The story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. His rise, fall and redemption.

 

There are a lot of otherwise talented writers who want to write stories. The publishers want to make a ton of money, so instead of just writing a good story in its own right, they try to tack on the Star Wars logo. The EU novels would be just as well (or poorly) written if they mentioned nothing from Star Wars.

 

Again, the galaxy (known galaxy) is very large and certainly larger than the story of Anakin Skywalker. I don't see what's wrong with writing stories what happens prior, during, and after the story of Anakin Solo. I agree some of the EU has been crazy but that happens when you have so many different writers working on one shared galaxy. Plus, Lucas didn't help because he won't let the big 3 get killed off.

[Kheld]

Zahns "Heir to the Empire" trilogy could possibly be some of the best sci-fi ever written for any genre nevermind Star Wars.

 

In fact if I ever become rich id buy the rights to make films of them.

 

Its just a shame that a lot of the books after that were apallingly bad.

 

The X-Wing series were excellent & I re-read them quite often.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Again, the galaxy (known galaxy) is very large and certainly larger than the story of Anakin Skywalker. I don't see what's wrong with writing stories what happens prior, during, and after the story of Anakin Solo. I agree some of the EU has been crazy but that happens when you have so many different writers working on one shared galaxy. Plus, Lucas didn't help because he won't let the big 3 get killed off.

 

They can't write good stories without killing off the main characters? If the writers are so talented, let them write science fiction stories in their own universe. I never heard anyone say "We can't write a good Conan novel unless we're allowed to kill off Conan."

 

It seems like the writers or the publishers or both don't want to do Star Wars stories, they just want the Star Wars name, or the Star Wars characters, to get people to buy the book. As if they know going in, this book isn't good enough to get an audience without the Star Wars brand. It's as if the Star Wars logo is a substitute for quality.

 

What made Star Wars great was the characters. If new writers can't write good stories with Star Wars' characters, they should write about something other than Star Wars.

[DarkMorlin]

There is nothing wrong with an Expanded Universe, I'm a huge fan of backstory. The problem with so much of the EU is that it is a fractured mess.

 

Some say that more characters should be killed off, a la George R. R. Martin. The problem with that is you never get a chance to develop an emotional attachment to the characters. At first I loved Fire and Ice, but with the constant death of every character I have given up on the series. I fell cheated and betrayed by the author after every pointless death.

 

As for the Yugan Dong, or whatever they are called, we don't need Aliens (the movie series in SW). You might as well discover a colony of elves, some space dwarves, or heck, lets let Luke go head to head with the Klingons!

 

Star Wars is the story of Light vs. Dark, Jedi Vs. Sith. It's the struggle of freedom against tyranny. That is the story I'm interested in. When you have a series of poorly written stories that do not make sense with each other, you end up with magic Abelonies, and invading insect armies.

 

Swtor did it right. They went back in time to tell different Jedi stories. EU did it wrong. They tried to keep bleeding the original characters for all they are worth, necessitating the need for ever bigger and badder enemies. Just let Luke and Han retire. They did their bit for king and country, and let their successors take over.

[priest]

Needs moar Waru.

 

I'm going to run you over with a lawnmower.

 

[priest]

I also think that authors have been using their Star Wars creds to be 'artsy.' There are so many greek themes and parallels to Odysseus. I've read the classics. I'm cultured. Star Wars is my popcorn. Leave the character's alone...stop killing them, making them emo. And yes... I know that Lucas borrowed from mythology as well, I just feel that the authors are writing to impress people with their skillz and ability to create a wheel within wheel plot, ultra complex characters, and extremely difficult moral choices. The whole beauty of Star Wars was the lack of all of that. It is simple.

 

On the topic of ESB being 'dark' While it didn't have a happy ending...it was a HOPEFUL ending. Lando and Chewie were heading out to save Han.

[priest]

Main problem is, I think, that Lucas and the other main guys of his never really saw the success of the EU coming. In the first run, there were just some novels and Marvel got the comics license and most of their comics sucked.

When Timothy Zahn wrote his novels, there was not going on much in the franchise. Everyone loved it, and then - boom - tons of comics, games and novels came out. Some were (and are) good, some not, you have not the feeling that anyone can really control what comes out.

But overall, the continuity/canon stuff is still a little better handled than the total confusing stuff in DC and Marvel universums.

 

The whole "Cade Skywalker" thing makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Stranger_D]

No. This is exactly where most EU authors go wrong. How is another Jedi vs. Sith plot any different than any other Jedi vs. Sith plot we've had in the entire franchise? If we want more Jedi vs. Sith, why not have a series take place during the Late Sith Wars, which, mind you, lasted a millenium? Or the Sith Wars before that time period? Why can't authors come up with an enemy besides the Sith? And no, not something like the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

Better yet, why can't ROTJ(or at least the Thrawn trilogy) be an end to all the conflict in the galaxy? The EU authors that write most of the post-ROTJ crap think that there needs to be a big threat to the galaxy. So then we get crap like the Yuuzhan Vong and Darth Krayt's One Sith.

 

And guess what? Because of that, what happens in ROTJ is meaningless. The galaxy isn't at peace. The Sith aren't wiped out from existence. Darth Vader's sacrifice doesn't matter anymore.

 

True enough. They DON'T need to write more adventure after ROTJ, (or at least very least, the point that war between Alliance/Imperial was over). An distant epilogue or family Reunion is fine but not another war and conflict every single year. Luke, Leia, Han deserve their peace like Harry Potter and Frodo Baggin.

 

If we want more Jedi vs. Sith, we already have Kotor to cover that.

 

I also agree with reboot here. Legacy, while I think it's okay as a FANFICTION, make all the heroic action in movie seems waste. Even Zahn himself slip up sometime with Ysalamiri and make Thrawn looks 'less' evil.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Stranger_D