Anyone think that the EU has lost its way?

[MxCNOM]

This.

 

The great irony is that the franchise probably owed a large measure of its popularity to Lucas' willingness to serve up an unambiguously heroic characters and a happy ending, something that action movies just were not doing by the mid 70s.

 

I was there as a kid, and I have to say that action/adventure films ~1975 were pretty bleak. We got vengeful anti-heroes, dead & crippled protagonists, and endings that showed the corrupt business executives and idiot scientists had learned nothing from all the misadventures we had just witnessed. They were going to go on polluting the ocean, building firetrap skyscrapers or conducting diabolical experiments, at least until a sequel could be filmed. Credits would roll after "The END??????" splayed across the screen in a wavy, bloodstained font, accompanied by bittersweet or ominous music. Happy endings were for corny old Errol Flynn movies.

 

The post-Thrawn EU appears to have largely fallen into the same sort of trap.

I was thinking this exact thing, as I remember in one of the documentaries about Star Wars, they said one reason it was so popular at the time was because it had actual heroes and villains. It would be a shame if the franchised turned in that direction, because there are honestly dozens of those already out there. I want to keep my good guys vs bad guys in space, if I want something to make me think deeply, I'll watch Star Trek (which will do a far better job at making you think than Star Wars ever will).

[priest]

I don't get enough opportunities to link these.

 

http://3do.jediknight.net/dcm/strips/dcmeu.gif

 

I love this.

[SliggXx]

And, as I've said, I think the original trilogy is the worst part of Star Wars. It laid the ground work for some awesome games (Kotor 1 and 2) and many awesome EU books, but the original trilogy is derivative and boring.

 

Good guy fights bad guy, good guy has set back, good guy eventually wins and proves good triumphs over evil. *gag*

 

Do we really need ANOTHER universe that tells a story that is, at this point, THOUSANDS of years old?

 

And even Tim Burton's batman was SIGNIFICANTLY darker than the source material at the time. Remember how Batman began?

 

He went from a guy in a bat suit who was ridiculous to one of the deepest and most beloved comic book characters in the world and much of that is because it kept getting darker with every reboot.

 

Star Wars is excellent source material that, so far, has not been used to make anything truly awesome.

 

I want to see a Star Wars film where I walk out of it and can't stop thinking about it.

 

I want a Star Wars film that affects me as deeply as A Serbian Film did.

 

I want something for a 28 year old.

 

You realize that you just plain don't like Star Wars, right? you also realize that millions of people do and are perfectly fine with the concept of Star Wars sans the Cannibal Corpse-esque, satanic Sith fury you seem to be proposing. Honestly, if that is what you are looking for, there is plenty of other Sci-fi up your alley. It just doesn't fit with star Wars in the slightest.

[gtmach]

Well I think the EU (and I hope it goes this way) will eventually evolve to host brand new characters that are completely unrelated to our Star Wars heros. The Star Wars universe is so well crafted that I think we can have star characters stand on their own and not be linked by the major figures.

 

But my opinion is that the EU lost its way not because of the progression after ROJ, but the changing of the prequel lore because of the constant new content being loaded in there. The Clone Wars series has changed up quite a bit of the lore from that time with certain characters and factions and planets. I can't label specific examples off the top of my head right now, but I know they're there.

 

Still, this is a great universe and part of the reason I couldn't wait for this game was because it was finally a chance to be "living" in this universe via a great MMO.

[Keihryon]

You realize that you just plain don't like Star Wars, right? you also realize that millions of people do and are perfectly fine with the concept of Star Wars sans the Cannibal Corpse-esque, satanic Sith fury you seem to be proposing. Honestly, if that is what you are looking for, there is plenty of other Sci-fi up your alley. It just doesn't fit with star Wars in the slightest.

 

Or maybe people like him (and me) do like star wars, and the concepts of constant struggle, IE the human condition, can be related to easier than a happy ever after ending. Kinda like Shakespeare, Hemmingway, Poe, etc. all very morbid writers, all extremely renowned for their works. And millions of people are perfectly fine with the constant struggle the EU provides. honestly, if happy go lucky endings are what you are looking for there is plenty of other sci-fi right up your alley. Conflict fits perfectly with Star Wars.

 

The EU messes up people's "happy ever after" that's why they don't like it. I've never read the Grimm Tales..but the Disney adaptations are extremely boring to me.

I prefer teh constant struggle the New Republic, the Galactic Alliance, and Luke's New Order have to deal with.

 

That said, I could do with more stories with characters like Corran Horn, or Wedge Antilles, even Dash Rendar. The books don't have to always revolve around Han, Luke, and Leia. Like the X-wing series and I, Jedi, and teh Darth Bane books so wonderfully demonstrated. So maybe not a reset, per se, but a re-focusing on different characters might be needed.

[MxCNOM]

Or maybe people like him (and me) do like star wars, and the concepts of constant struggle, IE the human condition, can be related to easier than a happy ever after ending. Kinda like Shakespeare, Hemmingway, Poe, etc. all very morbid writers, all extremely renowned for their works. And millions of people are perfectly fine with the constant struggle the EU provides. honestly, if happy go lucky endings are what you are looking for there is plenty of other sci-fi right up your alley. Conflict fits perfectly with Star Wars.

 

The EU messes up people's "happy ever after" that's why they don't like it. I've never read the Grimm Tales..but the Disney adaptations are extremely boring to me.

I prefer teh constant struggle the New Republic, the Galactic Alliance, and Luke's New Order have to deal with.

 

That said, I could do with more stories with characters like Corran Horn, or Wedge Antilles, even Dash Rendar. The books don't have to always revolve around Han, Luke, and Leia. Like the X-wing series and I, Jedi, and teh Darth Bane books so wonderfully demonstrated. So maybe not a reset, per se, but a re-focusing on different characters might be needed.

The problem is that Star Wars IS SUPPOSED to be a happy-ending type of story. You say that there is plenty of other sci-fi that has happy endings out there, and that Star Wars should change to be more dark, but that would change the essence of what Star Wars is. However, there is plenty of sci-fi out there that is dark and gritty, and if I want dark and gritty, I'll read/watch/play something from that IP. Don't turn Star Wars into Warhammer 40k.

[Keihryon]

The problem is that Star Wars IS SUPPOSED to be a happy-ending type of story.

 

What I said is true. From a certain point of view.

 

You ever wonder why the most depressing of the three OT's is considered the best?

Again, that depends on your point of view.

[adamqd]

The EU is the only Good Star Wars going. I love it. All.

[JeedaiFiresaber]

The problem is that Star Wars IS SUPPOSED to be a happy-ending type of story. You say that there is plenty of other sci-fi that has happy endings out there, and that Star Wars should change to be more dark, but that would change the essence of what Star Wars is. However, there is plenty of sci-fi out there that is dark and gritty, and if I want dark and gritty, I'll read/watch/play something from that IP. Don't turn Star Wars into Warhammer 40k.

 

 

Empire Strikes Back didn't have a happy ending...

 

Just sayin.

 

Personally...I've been really into the EU. Good and Bad. I can't believe you guys are whining about NJO and beyond cause its 'darker'. Go back and read some of the earlier EU besides the Xwing and Thrawn books. They are terribly written, and most people can't even get the characters right. Something like Chewbaccas death brought a whole different emotional resonance to the series and the characters. Up until then it was all 'LOL NOTHING CAN HURT US /SQUEEEE'

 

We've grown up, and the EU has grown up with us with smarter writting and a more realistic approach. No more 'James Bond never gets hurt' kind of deals. Characters can die.

 

Saying it sucks cause it's become more realistic and bringing out some of the darker aspects with emotional character deaths, and experiences....I just don't understand, cause the prequels being aimed rght at kids the way they were is the entire reason those 3 films lost me...

Edited February 3, 2012 by JeedaiFiresaber

[MxCNOM]

Empire Strikes Back didn't have a happy ending...

 

Just sayin.

 

Personally...I've been really into the EU. Good and Bad. I can't believe you guys are whining about NJO and beyond cause its 'darker'. Go back and read some of the earlier EU besides the Xwing and Thrawn books. They are terribly written, and most people can't even get the characters right. Something like Chewbaccas death brought a whole different emotional resonance to the series and the characters. Up until then it was all 'LOL NOTHING CAN HURT US /SQUEEEE'

 

We've grown up, and the EU has grown up with us with smarter writting and a more realistic approach. No more 'James Bond never gets hurt' kind of deals. Characters can die.

 

Saying it sucks cause it's become more realistic and bringing out some of the darker aspects with emotional character deaths, and experiences....I just don't understand, cause the prequels being aimed rght at kids the way they were is the entire reason those 3 films lost me...

ESB had a mixed ending. We have Luke with his hand cut off, and he finds out that Obi-Wan lied to him, and Han is frozen. We also know that Luke is shaken but is still hopeful, the hand was replaced, Lando and Chewy are off to save Han (the Obi-Wan lying was resolved fairly amicably, but that's not really the ending of ESB).

Conclusion: yes, it was "not happy" but at the same time, it was hopeful.

 

I feel I should say that I don't have a problem with characters dying. Obi-Wan died in ANH, the recently-turned-good Vader in RotJ. Neither of these were bad story choices. I just don't think that Star Wars is really the setting for deep, moral introspection, at least to the extent that it takes up so much of the good vs. evil story, which is what it was originally about. I'm not opposed to complicated characters; Han Solo is arguably very complicated (especially in ANH), and he is one of the most likeable characters in the entire IP.

 

My problem is that Star Wars has never really been a dark, despairing IP, where you're afraid to get attached to a character because they'll probably die, and that there isn't really any hope that things will work out in the end. There are different IPs for that, and I do enjoy them (WH40k, for example), but I just don't think that that is really in line with the original atmosphere of Star Wars.

 

I do agree with the fact that most of the pre-NJO EU books are terrible though. I've said earlier that outside of X-Wing and Thrawn, most of the rest is garbage. Can't comment much on NJO and beyond, as I could only get a few books into NJO before I gave out.

 

Edit: I think I should add that I think part of the problem with the "LOL WE NEVER DIE" thing is that the characters have a ridiculously large amount of conflicts, and survive all of them. I mean, the OT, a few more adventures on the side, and then anything after does start to get hard to believe. At least X-Wing had regular character deaths, though generally the major characters would live.

Edited February 3, 2012 by MxCNOM

[JDTC]

star wars is not the setting for a deep, emotional exploration of the human condition. its a fantasy adventure with all your typical fantasy elements, set in "space." sci-fi is a good tool to explore the human condition and other issues set against the backdrop of weird cultures and different characters, but that is not what star wars is or claims to be.

 

wanting star wars to be a vast hard-hitting story that makes you think is just... contrary to what the writers and creators of star wars set out to do. saying Star Wars is boring/not good/whatever because it does not portray something that it never tried to portray is just silly.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

I do agree with the fact that most of the pre-NJO EU books are terrible though. I've said earlier that outside of X-Wing and Thrawn, most of the rest is garbage. Can't comment much on NJO and beyond, as I could only get a few books into NJO before I gave out.

 

Be glad you stopped before Swarm War. Freaky bug orgies, anyone?

 

 

 

Burb. Urb. Burb urrb. Burrrrbbb uurrrrrrbbbbb!!!

Edited February 3, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs

[Keihryon]

Be glad you stopped before Swarm War. Freaky bug orgies, anyone?

 

 

 

Burb. Urb. Burb urrb. Burrrrbbb uurrrrrrbbbbb!!!

 

You know, the only thing I really remember about that series is when artoo started showing holos of Luke's parents. Finally letting him see his mother. All the bug stuff...yeah that was terrible. It was about as bad as the Black Fleet Crisis.

 

Legacy almost seems like they were under orders to kill the characters they did. You know, like how Lucas forced them to kill Anakin Solo because he thought the fans were too stupid to be able to differentiate between the two Anakins?

 

Still, they were entertaining reads for the most part.

 

Like I said I think this move to darkness on the writers part is due to the Legacy era comics, which during the current FotJ timeline is only about 60 or so years off. Cade's father "I think" is suppose to be Ben's son. So yeah, i think they put the Legacy comics too close to movies timelines. They should have gone KOTOR's route and made that 1-3 thousand years after RotJ. Given the movie characters the peace they fought for.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Keihryon

[Myk-Ron]

I actually appreciate the new stuff, quite a bit. Star Wars fans are older now, and it's time the series grew with the audience. You can still have a classic good vs evil story, while bringing in some darker themes and exploring more varied(realistic) characters.

 

We have a universe in which to explore. We have a mystical energy (I'm sorry, I refuse to acknowledge midichlorians as a thing that exists), and myriad religions and philosophies built upon it to delve deeper into.

 

I LOVED the X-wing series. LOVED them. As a military brat, I found each story just incredible. The characters were going through some of the things that I went through growing up. Obviously, my planet was never razed by Imperials, and I still haven't had the opportunity to do a trench run. But, the constant moving, the weird military sub-culture and in-jokes, the pilot humor, and tons of other little things suddenly made Star Wars even more accessible. And, those stories had some darker elements too. Characters died, and things looked really bleak. But, that just makes victory all the better. An easily won victory holds no meaning.

 

Some of the other stories were just...fluff. It's one of the reasons Superman has always been so boring to read. When your characters are invincible, where's the trouble? Oh, the Empire's attacking? Whatevs. I'll just sit back and watch Luke, Han, and Leia fix EVERYTHING in the universe...ever. It's like watching a pro football team play against your third-string highschool club. Even if your highschool club is comprised of a bunch of jerks that nobody likes...when the pro team demolishes them it will be expected, not celebrated.

 

We root for the underdogs. We want our heroes to have to work for it.

 

At least, I do.

 

Empire Strikes Back will always be my favorite SW movie. It makes the victory in ROTJ (despite the stupid ewoks [that's another rant]) so much sweeter. It makes everything MEAN more when you've worked for it.

 

I was devastated when Anakin Solo died. I cried when Mara died, and I wanted to put Jacen through a wall. I've felt just awful watching Han and Leia have to live through losing their two sons...

 

But, all that says to me story-wise is that I've actually FELT SOMETHING for these characters. Maybe, it makes me a cold-hearted SoB that it takes someone's Mom dying to get me to feel something...but, I really think it's just good story-telling. I look at Han and Leia now with Allana, and I see a ray of hope. And that light shines brighter for all the darkness that surrounds it.

 

People railed against Chewie's death. They said it was the beginning of the end. And, while I wished that he hadn't died, I think the readers needed it. We needed to see that the galaxy wasn't safe anymore. Otherwise, what are we even reading? If you know the ending of the story, why bother reading the book?

 

In the end, nobody can change anyone's opinion on anything. That's just not how people work.

 

But, I do think it's key to remember that,

 

"...many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

 

In other words, EVERYTHING is perspective. There are no absolutes.

 

- Myk

[MxCNOM]

Be glad you stopped before Swarm War. Freaky bug orgies, anyone?

 

 

 

Burb. Urb. Burb urrb. Burrrrbbb uurrrrrrbbbbb!!!

Well I do plan to finish them eventually, but thanks for the warning!

 

Part of the reason I stopped was because I don't really like organic/bug adversaries; they feel incredibly overused across sci-fi/fantasy. YV seemed far too tailor-made as perfect enemies to the galaxy, and specifically the Jedi (which, from what I understand, was done purposefully).

 

I do see the irony in me saying that they are overused while at the same time I'm defending the way overused good vs. evil, happy ending style of Star Wars...

[Keihryon]

Well I do plan to finish them eventually, but thanks for the warning!

 

Part of the reason I stopped was because I don't really like organic/bug adversaries; they feel incredibly overused across sci-fi/fantasy. YV seemed far too tailor-made as perfect enemies to the galaxy, and specifically the Jedi (which, from what I understand, was done purposefully).

 

I do see the irony in me saying that they are overused while at the same time I'm defending the way overused good vs. evil, happy ending style of Star Wars...

 

Swarm war, while bug story was garbage, has some pretty important things happen in it, character-wise. If you actually care about the characters I would say read it just for that. And just treat the bug story like Mystery Science Theater 3000...

[PeepsMcJuggs]

Swarm war, while bug story was garbage, has some pretty important things happen in it, character-wise. If you actually care about the characters I would say read it just for that. And just treat the bug story like Mystery Science Theater 3000...

 

Or just Wookieepedia it and skip to the next series.

[MRCHalifax]

My own personal pet peeve in the EU is that generally speaking OMG A THREAT TO THE REPUBLIC AND ALL OUR HEROES HAVE BUILT is present in virtually every novel.

 

Really, I'm fine with the heroes not having to save the entire galaxy with every mission. Or even an entire planet.

 

Also, cut the bugs and organic tech. Very few people want it in Star Wars.

 

While I'm at it, in the current ongoing series, the method of electing a President seems to be to get really drunk and pick whoever would be the worst possible candidate for the job. The politics of the post-ROTJ expanded universe make my brain hurt. If real world politics were as dumb as the politics of the expanded universe, Osama Bin Laden would be Secretary-General of the United Nations. Muammar Gaddafi would have had the job previously.

[Tarfang]

I'd hate to see a reset. Firstly I like a lot of the post ROTJ EU. The Bantam era had its gems and its stinkers. The NJO was a hell of an emotional ride and it created renewed interest in the EU. Legacy was an unfortunate attempt to be more shocking and emotionally challenging than the NJO, but I can live with it. I definitely wouldn't say it killed the post ROTJ EU. I haven't started Fate yet.

 

Secondly, I own a copy of nearly every Star Wars book and comic TPB and I really don't want to see them all made invalid.

 

Rather than a reset I'd like to see a couple of good authors (Luceno, Zahn, Stover) working closely together on a series set in the distant future of the universe.

[chakkar]

I remember in buying my first Star Wars Book in 1993- Heir to the Empire. I bought it in a used bookstore on a rainy day when I had nothing better to do. I had liked the movies; my parents had recorded them during a free week of HBO, and I had played the videos until you had to mess with the tracking to get the tape to feed without white static at the bottom of the screen. Even our copy of Return of the Jedi wasn't complete...it didn't start until Threepio and Artoo were standing outsid of Jabba's Palace. I loved these stories, so I thought that I'd give these books a chance.

 

I was immediately hooked. I bought the rest of the trilogy two days later. These books opened a universe of endless possibilities, wonder, and excitement. I bought each one as they hit shelves. Some were fantastic- I, Jedi the X-wing Series, Hand of Thrawn, The Courtship of Princess Leia; some were good at the time, but have mellowed as time has gone on, Young Jedi Knights, Darksaber. Some were downright wierd, The Crystal Star. But they all had one thing in common.

 

They were safe with happy endings. At the end of the day Good fights evil and conquers. Our heroes win. I could put up with the horrible books like the Black Fleet Crysis, and the not so bad but lukewarm Corellia Trilogy because in the end I knew what to expect of the characters.

 

Then came the New Jedi Order. I should have know what to expect when Chewbacca died. All bets were off, and no one was safe, nor was I guranteed a happy ending. The literature of my teenage years had been thrust into the uncertainty of more realistic characters with more realistic fatalistic ends. Still I kept reading.

 

I wish I could forget Dark Nest...I hated every bit of it.

 

Anakin- dead. Mara- dead. Jacen, darkside...then dead. The Solos lose two of their three children and Han his best Friend; Luke his wife, Ben his mother, and While I'm still in the middle of Fate of the Jedi...I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Here's the thing: It's all so incredibly dark. It's been hopeless ever since NJO, and I don't think that I entirely like this direction. Don't get me wrong...I like intrigue, uncertainty, in the trenches literature...but I never thought that Star Wars would go there. Now it's been more than a decade of loss, and a lasting depression over the entire GFFA. It's all turned into one, big, existential nightmare. I miss the days of Han, Chewie, Luke and the Princess running across the galaxy, against all odds but me (the reader) knowing that in the end...it would all be alright.

 

Is this antebellum mentality wrong?

 

yes, some have. But not all. SOme good reads are "death Star" "cloak of deception" and of course, the Republic Commando Novels. I liked Fatal Alliance and Decieved as well.

 

There are some other good ones as well. I havent read the NJO series. I refuse to. I can tell just by reading the back of the book that it is crap.

[Tarfang]

star wars is not the setting for a deep, emotional exploration of the human condition. its a fantasy adventure with all your typical fantasy elements, set in "space." sci-fi is a good tool to explore the human condition and other issues set against the backdrop of weird cultures and different characters, but that is not what star wars is or claims to be.

 

wanting star wars to be a vast hard-hitting story that makes you think is just... contrary to what the writers and creators of star wars set out to do. saying Star Wars is boring/not good/whatever because it does not portray something that it never tried to portray is just silly.

Star Wars does on occasion make me think about deeper things like love, family bonds, the concept of oneness, the interdependancy of life and death, and other things. It's unfair to say it's just spaceships and lightswords I think.

[DarkMorlin]

A lot of very good arguments for keeping, and for trashing the EU(AU).

 

But, in my view the only one that matters is the return of Palpatine. Oh, sure, he died, but....he just happended to have a new clone body waiting. So, his spirit travels a few million light years, hops into a new body! Oh, and he also had another massive battle fleet and awesome ground army just sitting around.......

 

It's just awful writing. Like a previous poster mentioned, Sauron coming back after the ring was destroyed? Any story worth reading has a plot! EU has no plot. If there is an overall story arc it is that there is a new, even more powerful, even more destructive magic/alien/immortal/recycled enemy that can one up the guy from last week.

 

Every great story has a plot. Destroy the one ring. Put the dark one back in his prison. Defeat Vader and his emperor, anything! You can't have 20 different authors all trying to rewrite the plot/story arc, you end up with a confused mess....the EU.

[Gomla]

Dark is good.

 

I love Black Library books set in Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and they are as grim as they come (except the Blood Bowl series, they are hilarious).

[LoneRebel]

Needs moar Waru.

[Martub]

Am I the only one who clicked on this thread thinking we were going to be discussing the European Union?