PeepsMcJuggs Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) I agree. The story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. His rise, fall and redemption. No it's not. According to Lucas post-1999 it is. Pre-1999, it was about something else entirely. Therefore, Lucas can go suck eggs with his constantly changing "vision" of what Star Wars is about. And I agree that the problem with the EU is Jedi have become the be-all, end-all of Star Wars stories. People should notice the number of folks in here that list the Thrawn Trilogy (Grand Admiral Thrawn - Not a Sith) and the Rogue/Wraith Squadron series (Rogue/Wraith Squadrons - Not Jedi) as the greatest EU books ever. Edited February 5, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitix Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Darth Vader's sacrifice brought the Force into balance. When Darth Bane destroyed all the other Sith and brought the Rule of Two along, the Force was thrown out of balance with years and years of the Jedi growing complacent and full of themselves in a way. Anakin/Vader's actions completely wiped the entire slate clean. The Republic/Empire/Rebillion have nothing to do with his sacrifice, more of an effect of it, not the reason. I'm not just talking about Darth Vader's sacrifice; I'm talking about the ending to ROTJ. Emperor Palpatine dies and then what? There's some bloke named Joruus C'baoth that's just as, if not, more powerful than Palpatine who happens to be a dark side user. Then after he's dead, Darth Caedus comes along and then what? There's another Sith in the galaxy. Instead of Sidious and Vader being the last Sith, the writers have to throw in another Sith just to spice things up. Then we have the Darth Krayt's Sith and now what? Now we're back at square one with a whole army of Sith in the galaxy, just like things were during the Sith Wars. This didn't happen 100 years or 1,000 years after ROTJ. No, the writers didn't want there to be peace for a while. As soon as Sidious died, there had to be another Sith. So instead of giving the galaxy some peace, they start dragging on the wars with the Imperials. No payoff. I watched the original trilogy to see the villains taken down, dammit! We can't even achieve world wide peace on our planet. Now imagine sustaining peace in the a galaxy filled with hundreds (thousands?) of planets with their own culture, nationality, ambitions, etc. and that's not even including all the ancient threats or possible things laying beyond the known galaxy. Simply, maintaining galaxy wide peace is lofty but impossible on a galactic scale. Conflict will inevitably occur at some point whether from within (Rebels trying to secure a legitimate government with remnants of the Empire left) or from the outside (Yuuzhan Vong, Sith returning, or Aboleth for examples). Darth Vader's sacrifice was meaningful because he stopped the Empire by disposing it of its leadership for enough time to give the Rebels the chance to "catch up." Thanks to Vader, the Rebels had a much better chance of retaking the galaxy and giving Luke time to train further so he could later challenge Palpatine. And btw, I really dislike the Dark Emperor idea because it does belittle Vader's sacrifice a bit but he still stalled the Empire. Edit: Firesaber did a better job of me explaining why Vader's sacrifice was important to the force. I just described how Vader's sacrifice affected the galaxy for the Republic/Empire. Star Wars isn't our planet. It's a fantasy series, and the heroes deserve to have a happy ending. At least give them ten years without a galactic-wide war. There could be smaller conflicts, something as small as the Naboo Crisis from The Phantom Menace going on, but other than that, give the heroes and audience a payoff. As for your second point, I've already answered that. To some people, Luke simply killed the head of the Empire. To most, the Empire was brought down at Endor. Then you find out in the EU that peace wasn't brought to the galaxy and that Empire survived for more than 10 years and that on top of that, there's a bunch of Gary Stus called the Yuuzhan Vong that's laying wreck to the galaxy. People complain about there being one darkside/sith enemy/plot after another, but then complain about the Yuuzhan Vong (perhaps the most innovative and game changing enemies ever to be introduced into the lore). Simply put, the writers made the Yuuzhan Vong too powerful. Look, I'm all for new villains and stuff like that, but if you want to make an enemy imposing, don't overdo it. However, I don't think writers should stop making new villains and cultures just because they failed with the Yuuzhan Vong. The Yuuzhan Vong were simply an example of a bad enemy or at least a contreversial one. Edited February 5, 2012 by Aitix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XjediXrf Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Most people make the mistake of thinking that anything after Zahn is canon of any level. It's not EU-Expanded Universe....it AU-Alternate Universe. There were some good stories after Zahn, but most of it is garbage. I have heard there is a Leelandchee, some kind of canon device. The solution is simple, declare everything after the Thrawn trilogy to be AU-Alternate Universe, and start over. Write out a MAIN story arc, that makes sense, which doesn't include the galactic government changing hands between the Empire, the Alliance, and magic aliens every few months. Then, allow authors to write approved stories that do not damage the main arc. We don't need dozens of Death stars, system killers, planet eaters, ect. Let's say a new sith order arises, with dozens/hundreds of sith lords to combat Luke's new order of Jedi. A Star Wars story can be very interesting on a planetary scale, you don't have to alter the course of the galaxy in every paragraph. Take the Batman stories for example. Batman mostly just does his thing in Gotham city. Sure, Superman is off fighting Galactic scale enemies, but does that make the story of Batman hunting down some psychotic murderer any less interesting or compelling? Let Luke be superman, surely there is enough room in the galaxy for a few Batmans? This!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Simply put, the writers made the Yuuzhan Vong too powerful. Look, I'm all for new villains and stuff like that, but if you want to make an enemy imposing, don't overdo it. However, I don't think writers should stop making new villains and cultures just because they failed with the Yuuzhan Vong. The Yuuzhan Vong were simply an example of a bad enemy or at least a contreversial one. I liked the idea of the Vong; but you're right...they were too overpowered. I think it is a result of making the Jedi demi-gods to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeepsMcJuggs Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I liked the idea of the Vong; but you're right...they were too overpowered. I think it is a result of making the Jedi demi-gods to begin with. True, but that's another sign of the EU losing its way. The Jedi didn't used to be all-powerful. They had their limits. They got beat up, beat down, shot at...hell, it seemed like in the early EU novels, Luke had to spend half his time in healing trances just to stay alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 True, but that's another sign of the EU losing its way. The Jedi didn't used to be all-powerful. They had their limits. They got beat up, beat down, shot at...hell, it seemed like in the early EU novels, Luke had to spend half his time in healing trances just to stay alive. I'm still liking Allegiance, BTW. I don't know what it is about Zahn's style that is so immersive, but I feel like he takes enough time to smell the roses...without getting all technical on what rose it actually is. BTW, some of the NJO authors are my favorite; so I'm not wanting to dog the authors terribly. Aaron Allston is an example; I loved the Wraith squadron books. It really puts me in a schizm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keihryon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm still liking Allegiance, BTW. I don't know what it is about Zahn's style that is so immersive, but I feel like he takes enough time to smell the roses...without getting all technical on what rose it actually is. BTW, some of the NJO authors are my favorite; so I'm not wanting to dog the authors terribly. Aaron Allston is an example; I loved the Wraith squadron books. It really puts me in a schizm... But if you notice the only Force user in Alliston's book barely had any sensitivity at all. And in stakepole's, his force user didn't actually train as a jedi until the book I, Jedi. Even then he put a severe limitation on what Horn could do. Anyway, The X-Wing series compliment's Zahn's trilogy nicely I think. And since they technically happen before the Thrawn Trilogy...they could be kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 But if you notice the only Force user in Alliston's book barely had any sensitivity at all. And in stakepole's, his force user didn't actually train as a jedi until the book I, Jedi. Even then he put a severe limitation on what Horn could do. Anyway, The X-Wing series compliment's Zahn's trilogy nicely I think. And since they technically happen before the Thrawn Trilogy...they could be kept. That's a good point. I think that Allston and Stackpole are good perephrial writers. I don't like the way that they write the main cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeepsMcJuggs Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 That's a good point. I think that Allston and Stackpole are good perephrial writers. I don't like the way that they write the main cast. Word. Stackpole and Allston were phenomenal at showing you don't have to make a Star Wars story about the Skywalkers, Solos, Jedi or Sith to make it interesting. In fact, I think the stories that don't focus on these groups are vastly more entertaining. It's why the first two characters I rolled were an IA (who gets annoyed with the Sith every chance he gets) and a Smuggler. With the exception of the Thrawn Trilogy (which is awesome from all angles), my favorite Star Wars novels are the Rogue/Wraith series, The Tales from short stories and Death Star. The consistent theme among those is they're about other people in the Star Wars universe. They're the ones that remind you there's a whole frickin' universe out there, and very few of them actually encounter or give a damn about any of the aforementioned groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustrumRidcully Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 True, but that's another sign of the EU losing its way. The Jedi didn't used to be all-powerful. They had their limits. They got beat up, beat down, shot at...hell, it seemed like in the early EU novels, Luke had to spend half his time in healing trances just to stay alive. George Lucas did the same in the Prequels, really. Jedi became too uber outside the original trilogy. The early EU novels still got it right, but later it got entirely out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeepsMcJuggs Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 George Lucas did the same in the Prequels, really. Jedi became too uber outside the original trilogy. The early EU novels still got it right, but later it got entirely out of hand. Yeah, I remember some great plot points about the limits of their Force knowledge. While the Jedi Academy Trilogy had its faults, one thing I particularly loved was how they wrote Cilghal's specialization as a Jedi Healer: that the individual Jedi each had their own strengths and weaknesses. But then came the prequels and the EU quickly went downhill. Suddenly every Jedi (except Corran Horn) was an über Jedi with the exact same 1337 skillset. Now you've got Luke absorbing the collective knowledge of every Force wielder ever like a frickin' sponge, and people like Jaina learning the long-lost technique of Shatterpoint by spending five minutes with him. Ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 George Lucas did the same in the Prequels, really. Jedi became too uber outside the original trilogy. The early EU novels still got it right, but later it got entirely out of hand. Don't even get me started on midichlorians.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnitheo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Don't even get me started on midichlorians.... I suggest you read Darth Plagueis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal_Viggo Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 When I read the title, I was prepared for some hardcore foreign, domestic, cultural and economic policy debates on the European Union... I guess SW novels come close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 When I read the title, I was prepared for some hardcore foreign, domestic, cultural and economic policy debates on the European Union... I guess SW novels come close. Its wierd; I think that we've talked about the EU as being the EU before the EU was the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I suggest you read Darth Plagueis I couldn't even get past the title. I'm sure this has been in this thread, but even so, it bears repeating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 i couldn't even get past the title. I'm sure this has been in this thread, but even so, it bears repeating. lol!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yeah, I remember some great plot points about the limits of their Force knowledge. While the Jedi Academy Trilogy had its faults, one thing I particularly loved was how they wrote Cilghal's specialization as a Jedi Healer: that the individual Jedi each had their own strengths and weaknesses. But then came the prequels and the EU quickly went downhill. Suddenly every Jedi (except Corran Horn) was an über Jedi with the exact same 1337 skillset. Now you've got Luke absorbing the collective knowledge of every Force wielder ever like a frickin' sponge, and people like Jaina learning the long-lost technique of Shatterpoint by spending five minutes with him. Ridiculous. I meant to make a point on this, but I forgot to. That was the greatness of the Thrawn Trilogy: Luke didn't learn much more about the Force...he learned about HIMSELF. The only thing that I dlslike is the death of Thrawn. I truly thought that he could have been a great ongoing adversary, and that there were more stories that needed telling...but I understand why, at that time, Zahn did it. I would love to ask Tim Zahn if he ever regreted killing of the Grand Admiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustrumRidcully Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) I meant to make a point on this, but I forgot to. That was the greatness of the Thrawn Trilogy: Luke didn't learn much more about the Force...he learned about HIMSELF. The only thing that I dlslike is the death of Thrawn. I truly thought that he could have been a great ongoing adversary, and that there were more stories that needed telling...but I understand why, at that time, Zahn did it. I would love to ask Tim Zahn if he ever regreted killing of the Grand Admiral. Going by some of the later SW novels by Zahn, the answer almost must be yes. He certainly liked to play with Thrawn in those. It may have been his best villain ever. Or was he just doing us some fan service, knowing that we loved Thrawn? Could also be... Many years after I read the original trilogy, I also read some of his other Sci-Fi books - Black Collar and Cobra series. They are all highly military-focused and all about the protagonists and the antagonists out-strategizing each other. They are kinda repetitive in that, admittedly, but they are also very enjoyable. Thrawn just seems to be the perfection of that archetype - except that in in Star Wars, the best strategist is the antagonist, not one of the protagonists.* Come to think of it... The Prequel Palpatine and his machination might have been even better (more believable with less flaws as redlettermedia/plinkett review pointed out) if he had been written by Zahn. *) Or is he? Talon Karrde is just as much a big thinker. Karrde, Mara Jade and Palleon were probably some of the best contributions to the EU, followed probably only by Corran Horn (and then, the rest of the Rogue Squadron crew). Edited February 8, 2012 by MustrumRidcully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadtoArkham Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Zahn, Stackpole, and Luceno. Every other author can ****. Drew K. gets a pass for Darth Bane, but that's it. Edited to add: Video games added some great stuff, KOTOR I and II, Jedi Outcast in specific. But I think Force Unleashed went tooooooo far into godhood. Edited February 8, 2012 by RoadtoArkham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aitix Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 George Lucas did the same in the Prequels, really. Jedi became too uber outside the original trilogy. The early EU novels still got it right, but later it got entirely out of hand. No, the prequel Jedi were mostly okay in terms of their abilities. It made sense, giving that the prequels took place during the Jedi's golden age. What happened was that the EU authors took it to a whole new level. Actually, the Force-users were becoming overpowered even before the prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeepsMcJuggs Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) No, the prequel Jedi were mostly okay in terms of their abilities. It made sense, giving that the prequels took place during the Jedi's golden age. What happened was that the EU authors took it to a whole new level. Actually, the Force-users were becoming overpowered even before the prequels. No really, they weren't. Maybe in the comics, but not in the novels. You can look at them one-by-one, and you'll see that's not the case. There was moments where they'd discover new abilities (like Luke learning of the White Current), but none of it was over the top. In fact, it's pretty consistent that the Jedi had limits and specialties, such as not being able to sense droids in the Force, Jacen Solo's affinity for animals and Anakin Solo's affinity for machinery. It wasn't until '99, when the start of the Prequel era coincided with the start of the New Jedi Order series, that their Force abilities got supercharged. Edited February 9, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulta Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I gotta agree with the op, I enjoyed some of the earlier novels, and I thought legacy of the force wasn't bad, (haven't read Thrawn's series, probably should) I have to say though one of the worst things the authors did was turn the Jedi and Sith into Dragon Ball Z characters I mean emperor palpatine became friggin god mode in the EU, powerful is fine, but the ability to just eradicate whole planets with no real effort is just ridiculous. Abeloth is even worse, It's hit the point were they aren't even really Jedi or Sith. Even Luke has become ridiculously overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I gotta agree with the op, I enjoyed some of the earlier novels, and I thought legacy of the force wasn't bad, (haven't read Thrawn's series, probably should) I have to say though one of the worst things the authors did was turn the Jedi and Sith into Dragon Ball Z characters I mean emperor palpatine became friggin god mode in the EU, powerful is fine, but the ability to just eradicate whole planets with no real effort is just ridiculous. Abeloth is even worse, It's hit the point were they aren't even really Jedi or Sith. Even Luke has become ridiculously overpowered. Oh, dear. Read some of the feats Luke, Abeloth and, anyother Skywalker have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger_D Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Come to think of it... The Prequel Palpatine and his machination might have been even better (more believable with less flaws as redlettermedia/plinkett review pointed out) if he had been written by Zahn. Nah, I prefer him to be just evil hammy dictator, not some well-intention extremist. Beside, we wouldn't have the awesomely hilarious POWAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!!! line if Zahn wrote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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