How to make PvP in a MMO actually competitive

[Brutem]

The best PvP games out there are not MMOs, why?

 

My basis of "best" is derives from competitive gaming scene, games which are played professionally.

 

 

For a list of professional gaming leagues you can view http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports

 

These games range from Fighting, RTS, MOBA, FPS.

 

 

Currently none of the games played at any of these events are MMOs, the last and only MMO, if im not mistaken, to be in any of these was WoW, which was later dropped by the MLG. Because one player does not have an advantage over the other at the start of the match. Even the game Bioware copied the current pvp system from, in actual competitive play they give the players the resources to purchase what they want for their character, so they can have both the customization of how their character is geared and equal grounds with their opponents. Making the only factors are skill and teamwork.

 

 

In SW:TOR for new 50 its hard to have either skill or teamwork as a factor when you face a full team of BM geared players, who simply faceroll through newbies in 3 hits or less. Players should be working only to improve themselves, learning how to counter, what to watch for, when to do this and that. With the system that is in place atm a new 50 gets dropped in seconds, what were they able to learn?

 

 

First things first, remove the grind.

 

 

A grind in PvE is there to hold player over and keep them busy so the game company can push out new content. In PvP, there is rarely new physical content (maps), so basically the grind here and other MMos is more about spending time to get an advantage over others whom dont have the gear or to become on par with those who do. My point is a grind in PvP isnt needed.

 

 

The issue to removing PvP gear from the picture completely would be:

 

 

Players would be simply getting better PvE gear and who ever had the best gear, still would have an advantage. The solution No PvP gear to be purchased, but instead once you enter the pvp zone (WZ,world pvp area) you automatically equip a PvP set you had choosen previously at the current PvP items vendor or character info screen. Now since people would no longer doing a grind for gear, instead doing PvP for its intended purpose, fun. Perhaps this would slow or stop the kill/point trading in ilum as well.

 

 

Complaints:

 

1) But with no carrot on a stick, no one would pvp

 

2) no pvp gear would only benefit the casuals

 

3) But i have put sooo much time into getting my BM gear now, JUST TO HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY!!11!

 

 

Reply:

 

1) add more cosmetic changes if the carrot on a stick is felt needed ex: mounts, companion customization, titles, ranking systems, etc. For the most part players do not PvP for the gear, they are doing it for the fun. However with the current meta game, pvp gear is a have to have, so people do the grind for the gear in order to have a fair and balanced playing field. Remove the grind for gear and you have people playing pvp for fun. Which might surprise some, alot of players play the game to do just that, not to say "I have BM gear, look at my epeen"

 

2) yes and no, it does cater to them, however it also encourages players whom have been avoiding pvp due to not having gear, to participate. This would actually increase the number of players whom do pvp. Currently new 50s are often berated by their team for not having pvp gear, and often do not requeue. With gear no longer a factor, you would actually shorten queue times dues to more players will be willing to queue up knowing they have an equal chance.

 

3) Since Gabe Amatangelo couldnt think of a better model other than to copy paste WoW's PvP system in the game, the facts of life is, currently this model could not be put into game at this time. It would have to be put into game once the current pvp gear becomes obsolete (ex: an expansion) because quite a few players actually put in the grind to attain it, however more than that attained it through other means (farming low levels pre 1.1, post 1.1 ilum farming incident and now kill/point trading).

 

 

 

World PvP

 

 

The main thing that needed to happen:

You need to ensure balance in population. How this "could" have been done at launch, server caps on factions keeping the factions within 5% of each other.(this cannot be done at this time)

 

Server imbalance not only effects PvP but PvE as well, more player on a side, means it be more likely to be able to find groups for FP, OPs at any time because you are pulling from a larger player base.

 

Post launch:

 

1) Offer incentive for players to roll on the underplayed side examples: 5% more valor, xp

 

2) Put caps keeping the number of players, allowed to enter the pvp zone (this already is in place)

 

3) The lesser number of players in the PvP area should recieve an addition "bolster effect". EX:30 republic in ilum vs 10 empire, the 10 empire stats would be increased due to the much higher numbers they are facing.

 

 

 

 

Warzones:

 

Since cross server WZs are comming

 

 

1) Premades should be vs Premades and pugs vs pugs. I am not saying a pug cannot beat a premade, in fact it can, i am however saying it is much harder for a pug to communicate via chat as well as a premade using vent/TS/mumble/skype.

 

2) Ranking systems need to be implemented, something along the lines of a elo/ranking system which tracks numerous factors, win/loss/medals/healing/objectives and other stats and pairs players with like stats vs like stats. Have the system set aside X ammount of time to find a match, if no match is found then select from the next bracket/rank/elo.

 

3) Spectator mode, tournaments, etc. to promote PvP

 

While alot of things mentioned here would need modification, additions and changes, it sure seems like a better soultion than the cluster exploit fest we have now. Thanks for reading, please post suggestions/thoughts and concerns of why this would not work.

 

TL;DR sorry there isnt one

Edited February 3, 2012 by Brutem

[Vydor_HC]

That's a MMO/FPS hybrid. Not sure if that would catch on, since you'd be diluting the best aspects of each. -shrugs- If I want instant balanced action, I'll go play an FPS.

[Fierystrike]

These teams only get said level playing field in tournies on the ladder they farm gear like everyone else

[Ellyll]

I think the next game to do this correctly will be huge, tbh.

 

People are sick, sick, sick of the poorly implemented clones.

[SignifyZ]

Removing pvp gear is the worst idea i've ever heard of

[Metalmac]

This is exactly what makes PVP fun. You do not feel underpowered as everyone has the same chance and only skill makes a good PVP player.

 

ONLY THOSE THAT SUCK WANT GEAR AS THEY HAVE TIME AND NO SKILL.

 

PVP is supposed to be fun not a grind or a frag fest for one side.

 

What talent does it take to smash someone that does not have a chance in hell of winning?

[Vegathegreat]

I dont think the OP really grasps the reality that MMO's like WoW are successful A) gameplay and B) gear grind, people want to gain str over others then impose set str on others......

 

It has nothing to do with "competitive" gaming......competitive gaming exists vs the people who grinded out the gear also

 

Most people can't compete....why would they play a game where they cant work for an advantage?

 

It's simple math, and numbers dont lie.....MMO's are about subs and keeping the majority (TERRIBLE PLAYERS) happy

Edited February 2, 2012 by Vegathegreat

[Metalmac]

Removing pvp gear is the worst idea i've ever heard of

 

No do not remove it but everyone has the same gear.

 

Suddenly you will realize just how good you really are at PVP. You may quit if you suck.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Metalmac

[Metalmac]

I dont think the OP really grasps the reality that MMO's like WoW are successful A) gameplay and B) gear grind, people want to gain str over others then impose set str on others......

 

It has nothing to do with "competitive" gaming......competitive gaming exists vs the people who grinded out the gear also

 

Most people can't compete....why would they play a game where they cant work for an advantage?

 

So you have no talent to speak of?

 

You can only feel powerful if you have a advantage and bring a gun to a knife fight right?

 

This is the logic of those that truely suck at something, "I must have the advantage as if we were equal he would wipe the floor with me."

 

Sorry but you get the point I hope.

[darthmorbous]

Removing pvp gear is the worst idea i've ever heard of

 

wow player i presume?

[Calei]

I think the next game to do this correctly will be huge, tbh.

 

People are sick, sick, sick of the poorly implemented clones.

 

Guild Wars 2 is in the polishing stage right now. Its only a few months away. Then we can leave these hamsters chasing purple items forever.

[darthmorbous]

i concur with the OP absolutely, BUT, in the faction balance illum thing.

i wouldnt cap the player amount per instance, i would cap the player faction ammount.

An issue would occur if you cap the totall amount of players; you could have 130 imps vs 20 reps...

if you cap both at lets say 50, there would be moments when imps r 50 vs 30, or even 45 vs 40, 50 vs 50, you get what i mean.

Allowing for more tactical, small skirmishes "commando " type incursions, etc.

Im also against stat buffs, but valor gain buff for underplayed faction , im in favor.

 

my very small 2 cents

[darthmorbous]

Guild Wars 2 is in the polishing stage right now. Its only a few months away. Then we can leave these hamsters chasing purple items forever.

 

we all are waiting for this one to pvp

[kvelwulf]

If you want to remove the grind from a mmo style pvp, then play warhammer wrath of heroes... I tried it, and it just doesn't work.

 

*Should note this under development also by bioware/mythic.

Edited February 2, 2012 by kvelwulf

[Manigma]

Actually Guild Wars has oustanding pvp and I consider that an MMO (it's an MMO to me because I do exactly the same things I do in this game).

 

You can say it's all instanced but the gameplay is very similar except no world pvp - you can still group up, there are dungeons (long ones too, in fact longer than some pve based mmos). You can skip all the pve content if you want, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

[Angaurath]

WHY do people believe that an even playing field cannot happen in a tab-targeted + ability key combat system?

 

There is Zero/Zip/NONE/NOT ANY intrinsic connection between RPG combat systems (target + ability key) and a gear grind. This false equivalency is getting annoying.

 

NWN (Neverwinter nights) arenas that were any good did have XP progression, (and effectively, tiered arenas) but did NOT have gear advantages for seat time. Everybody at level ___ got the same options for gear.

 

 

If people need a carrot on a stick, give us customizable housing, cosmetic armor, titles, and published rankings. But keep the actual game competitive.

[Jestunhi]

That's a MMO/FPS hybrid. Not sure if that would catch on, since you'd be diluting the best aspects of each. -shrugs- If I want instant balanced action, I'll go play an FPS.

 

Yup.

 

You could play Global agenda for monthly fee, gear & twitch. Or the Tribes MMO in beta. Or Planetside 2 when it comes out. Or any of the many F2P MMOFPS games with limited progression.

[SeppoTheHated]

my belief is that it has so little to do with gear, and so much to do with game mechanics. you want to make this game competitive? Change the mechanics of the classes to have the ability to promote competitive style pvp.

 

Their is so much space on different worlds that could be potential loops or circuits for small group roaming, yet rewards for pvp are only given in ilum. Zergs move at the same speed as coordinated groups with personal mount speed, and the terrible follow commands and lack of assist macros just make jump on the first person you see viable strategy.

 

pvp is balanced on the assumption that class a can duel vs class b and it be a fair fight.. this is bad promotion of group based pvp. it takes away the need for identifiable roles.

 

1. give group speed buff

2. make ops a chat vs making it a raid frame in pvp.

3. give valor rewards for killing players in any zone.

4. increase group size to 6 or 8.

5. and make valor rewards distributed between the number of players and or groups killing the target.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SeppoTheHated

[AeonicStorm]

Take a look at league of legends : This is the first game I've picked up, played, and continue to return to play over and over six months later. I've played every major game out there, I've ran a gaming company doing tournaments, I am in this industry real deep- and so it's hard to keep my attention.

 

But, with LoL I will grow bored and go off and do something then I'll be sitting there thinking "I wonder if that build would be good, and maybe that item customization..." then I'll go back and play more.

 

The same could work in SWTOR, and I will be letting them know about this at the guild summit in Austin in March.

 

I've spent over 600,000 credits tinkering with my spec with my 50 Sith Assassin, just like I do with league. I try different aspects of the class until I found what works for what. Needless to say, the only thing I do for respec now is to switch from end-game raiding and stretches of time when I won't be doing that and will be PvPing instead.

 

I don't think they should remove the grind for PvP gear, it serves its purpose. However, setting up some kind of ladder system for 'tournament' style PvP but have the flavor of "The Great Hunt" Bounty Hunter / Nar Shadaa / Hutt flavor. Some kind of rugged "HUTTBALL" flavor tournament system. Where the best of the best of the galaxy try their fighting against one another.

 

How would this work for specs?

Outside a tournament game (known as RANKED in LoL) allow people to form up to 3 specs just for PvP (maybe 2) that they can create while they're running around SWTOR. When they get IN TO a game, they choose which one of the pre-loaded specs they want to use, and then a combination of gear.

 

What about the gear?

You can go different routes with this. You can add RANKED (Tournament) only PvP gear that is very specific much like gear is in LoL. People can have two-three pre-loaded gear setups so that when they enter a game they choose their pre-loaded spec, and pre-loaded gear. The only way for this to stay interesting is to add very interesting gear with many variations of set bonuses. I would guess that it would take an implement of about 32 new pieces of gear that work differently for one another (and have Assassin/Shadow identicals just named differently) that mix and match in different ways.

 

What about the gear v2?

Well, maybe you have a warzone that is sort of like an end-game raid or an operation. A league match takes about 50 minutes to complete, our guild farms EV and it takes about an hour and half maybe two, hardmode flashpoints for us take about the same.

 

SO : Why not add a warzone that can run to be as long as a whole minute? In League of Legends if the timer starts getting by 55 minutes or so and one team has the lead on tower and inhibitor kills but hasn't quite been able to win it, the minions spawning become very much more powerful and eventually overwhelm the team.

 

So add a warzone that could be like the start of a huge battle between two armies? I'm using LoL for my imagination to give you guys a better idea btw : So two armies start off and there are 8 vs. 8. Each army has waves of NPC's they send that are similar to one another but have a few variations. The players kill these NPC's while fighting enemy players, defending their "Commmand Station / Shield Generator" ? from the other army. So as people kill npc's they get commendations and as they kill enemy players the same thing, and when they return to base to do w/e they can requisition better gear etc etc.

 

Anyways, let the ideas roll around in your head.

[JasonTheImpaler]

 

3) But i have put sooo much time into getting my BM gear now, JUST TO HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY!!11!

 

 

games been out a month bro? not that much time. People are asking for more of a grind like how mmo's used to be, put a lot of time in to get stuff.

 

go play wow and get your stuff handed to you on a silver platter

[CrunchyGremlin]

The best PvP games out there are not MMOs, why?

 

 

Since you start with a premise that is unsubstantiated and likely false i couldn't read the rest.

Can you change that?

[Metalmac]

games been out a month bro? not that much time. People are asking for more of a grind like how mmo's used to be, put a lot of time in to get stuff.

 

go play wow and get your stuff handed to you on a silver platter

 

That is a load of crap, it requires insane amounts of time to get some items.

 

Some items on RNG you could actually die of old age before it ever drops for you.

 

Some examples are .003 for a item in WOW, that is 100000 times worse then the lottery.

 

You have 10000 times better chance of getting hit with a rock from Mars.

 

You insist on this being like WoW? Go back please, I left because I want fun not a grind.

[JasonTheImpaler]

That is a load of crap, it requires insane amounts of time to get some items.

 

Some items on RNG you could actually die of old age before it ever drops for you.

 

Some examples are .003 for a item in WOW, that is 100000 times worse then the lottery.

 

You have 10000 times better chance of getting hit with a rock from Mars.

 

You insist on this being like WoW? Go back please, I left because I want fun not a grind.

 

Tried WoW when it first came out, was terrible, and always will be. Nothing comes close to pre-cu

[Devhyn]

That is a load of crap, it requires insane amounts of time to get some items.

 

Some items on RNG you could actually die of old age before it ever drops for you.

 

Some examples are .003 for a item in WOW, that is 100000 times worse then the lottery.

 

You have 10000 times better chance of getting hit with a rock from Mars.

 

You insist on this being like WoW? Go back please, I left because I want fun not a grind.

 

I have a 300% chance to win the lottery now? Heck yes, I'm off to the gas station brb.

[MaroBaro]

I really do not understand what the problem people have with gear is.... The difference between t1 and t2 = .6% and t2 to t3 = .6%.... So the actual grind is for 1.2%. I mean you might want to try FPS like BF3 and I can promise you there is a HUGE difference between a gun with mods and one without... it is soooo big it is not even funny.

 

I mean this is the reason for unlockables and levels so players can learn the game better. ANy player no matter the gear will be shocked and awed going from 49 to 50. On 49 you are literally destroying everyone, and on 50 you suddenly meet premades that have been playing together all day every day for weeks. Another probem is that people see lvl 50 as the END where it actually is the begining of a whole new game. So you should see lvl 50 as a whole new chapter... or actually a whole new book!