BUFF operatives!!

[Yakito]

Operatives crying?

Man this pleases me soooo much!

[Alundo]

Playing a Scoundrel here. Gone Scrapper 'cos I felt like a change from Sawbones. (Its a yawn spec, even though I can get #1 or #2 for healing.)

 

I'll admit to not knowing the full extent of Scrapper/Concealment + Biochem buffs + Warzone buffs + Adrenals, as I don't use them. (Maybe I should switch, pvp gear = better than what I can craft with Cybertech anyway.)

 

Vs a new level 50 I can crit for 4k+, vs a PvP geared player, 3 and a bit thousand is the max I'm looking at. Once that's been done, I don't really have much to play with.

 

However I'm not ever expecting to play a class that can 1v1 and win without a fight, that's silly. My role as a Scrapper is to be as underhanded as I can, unloading on an Empire player who's either alone and hurt, or in the middle of a 1v1 with someone else. It's not so bad, I can keep someone close with a slow, get in a bleed and another on top of that with Flechette round.

 

If a buff is needed, it's not in pure dps or burst. I'd like a bit more utility, it's murder trying to kill Sorc's with all their controls/slows and abilities that build hardly any resolve. :/

Edited February 4, 2012 by Alundo

[Leszor]

Bioware "balanced" the op/sc as a low utility - high damage class

Of course that only worked in their incompetent mind, in reality we saw people getting killed in less than five seconds, wich was unacceptable... i believe everyone agrees with that, right? Right.

 

Getting that out of the way, now you have a class with comparable damage but still no real utility outside of that damage, being also fairly squishy on top of it

No that should be unacceptable too, right? I mean, there is absolutely no reason to have an op/sc in huttball now

But of course it isnt, paper only whines when scissors cuts him, but if scissors becomes rock, well than thats okay

Edited February 4, 2012 by Leszor

[Malice_Nihilim]

Operatives have been nerfed completely, the concealment spec is too weak... You can barely kill clothies and automatically lose vs heavy armored opponents...

 

You are weak an others know it so since you are melee you are one of the first targets for noob tracer spam

 

lawl they nerfed 1 attack. Get over it.

[Malice_Nihilim]

No, but i would sign a petition to buff powertechs, because you know, thats the class i play....

 

I'd sign that too.

[Darkrite]

Except absorb and shield don't work against a number of those attacks, tech and force attacks bypass those stats.

 

A typical opener from an operative now will be a 2k attack followed by 2*2k. They can fail a crit and do less than 2k.

But still, a 4k-6k opener with a dot that takes another ~1k over 6 seconds (and of course, their other attacks).

 

On a 19k health tank that's about 30% of my health gone on average. Which is more enough imo.

 

Operatives and scoundrels do not need to be able to kill their target 1vs1 coming out of stealth, in fact they shouldn't. They're burst classes that are about disabling and taking a portion of health away (possibly to finish an opponent) quickly.

 

I can agree about the consequences in PvE, however, pure burst really isn't that viable in PvE to begin with.

 

Ok, but you're basically saying, in not so many words: "The burst damage class doesn't need burst to take out a class." Which is absolutely incorrect. You're arguing that a class that requires a ton of energy to perform abilities in the first place, shouldn't get full burst from those abilities?

 

So what then? Lower the cost of abilities to sustain damage in fights right? That's the only true fix to nerf bombing the burst.

 

If you're going to argue that, you have no idea what the cost of abilities are for a scoundrel or ops.

 

Those that are on the "I'm doing just fine as a scoundrel or ops" bandwagon, I have to believe either don't have a scoundrel or ops, or are just plain arguing how l33tsauce they are without observation of true combat statistics.

 

I've ranked in top damage, even after the nerf. Reason for that is DoTs. If you're not placing them, you're not sustaining damage. There's no work around unless you want to constantly pay the cost of no action between combat. I've ranked in kills. I can tell you now though, that the intention of that spec was to take out players 1v1 coming out of stealth. They nerfed it because of other players bad reaction times and just playing poorly.

 

Ops/Scound energy = 100.

 

4 set champ or BM enforcers gear grants 5 more energy. Woopty do. Total: 105

 

(Using scoundrel set as example here)

 

Opening - Shoot First : 17 energy

 

Backblast: 0 energy if spec'd (9 second cooldown)

 

Dirty Kick: 10 energy (30s cooldown)

 

Blaster Whip: 15 energy (6s cooldown, also opens up needed combat abilities)

 

Sucker Punch: 15 energy*2, total of 30 (requires "upper hand" granted from killing an enemy, or hitting with blaster whip. Note: This attack is the only one I find to make sense on the cooldown, since you have to bust blaster whip - 6s cd - to use it, and it can't be used twice in a row except when a target is bleeding...note, this requires the opening of flechette round or a DoT to be placed on a target...again, notice how much vital shot costs - 20 energy - and tell me something's not quite right there for sustained, to continue an attack. If flechette round's bleed ends after 6 seconds, and you have to place a new bleed effect on the target, essentially vital shot, then something's wrong with the cost of vital shot.)

 

Sustained damage problem area: Vital Shot: 20 energy (no cooldown, but 20 energy for a DoT...amazing. In WoW (or any other game for that matter), a rogue would get smashed for having to pay so much for an ability that does damage over time, especially if it's required to get a two hit burst from a needed burst attack.)

 

Now, someone might argue, "All you're trying to do is open up that burst damage again with two sucker punches. The energy cost is just fine.". To that I retort "Yes, I am trying to open those up for burst damage, because the cooldowns kill the rotation, along with the total energy cost. So essentially, after I've popped through a whole rotation, including pugnacity to keep my energy regenerating, which is SLOWER the lower it gets, I find a problem there with not being able to rotate once again for at least 2-3 seconds while a marauder, sage, or any other class for the most part can sustain damage on me during the entirety of the fight as their energy costs are lower, or their burst/sustained is higher for the amount of drain they use.

 

Total these up on rotation: 17, 10, 15, 30. Total = 72 energy of 100. Throw in vital shot to get another bleed its 92.

 

92 out of 100 energy. There's your problem for not giving a sustained damage buff while nerfing burst damage on ops/scounds. There's the reason the nerf hurt so badly, and why scounds/ops are complaining.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Darkrite

[Fdzzaigl]

Ok, but you're basically saying, in not so many words: "The burst damage class doesn't need burst to take out a class." Which is absolutely incorrect. You're arguing that a class that requires a ton of energy to perform abilities in the first place, shouldn't get full burst from those abilities?

 

No, what I'm saying is a burst class should not be able to take out an opponent 1vs1 in a single burst (or debilitate him so seriously that he is practically done for).

 

You detail energy costs, but you have means of recovering energy (cool head, available to all smugglers), you have means of resetting the fight and you even have means for healing after resetting the fight.

 

A 30% (and much more with gear and consumables/trinkets) initial burst on a tank, with added CC with added dots and all the options above is more than enough.

 

Warzones are a team game, operatives / scoundrels should not be able to destroy an opponent 1vs1 as they did. If you don't believe they could do that, then I don't know what to say: you simply never faced an operative who could and never played a class who got destroyed by them.

 

Bad reaction times didn't have anything to do with it, because you can't do jack **** while knocked down and afterward you were in a huge health deficit while the operative still had all the options above available to him.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Safgril]

LOL

 

 

 

 

a fully BM'd geared out Operative still hits like a mack truck even after the nerf. Get out of your greens and learn to play the class.

 

if you say you are champ.. then get in to BM gear. If you are saying you are in BM gear.. then find a new profession... this class isnt for you.. .I still see Operatives taking people out 1v1. and they still do quite a bit of burst damage.. expcept they dont do it within one knockdown anymore.

[Treplos]

LOL

 

a fully BM'd geared out Operative still hits like a mack truck even after the nerf. Get out of your greens and learn to play the class.

 

if you say you are champ.. then get in to BM gear. If you are saying you are in BM gear.. then find a new profession... this class isnt for you.. .I still see Operatives taking people out 1v1. and they still do quite a bit of burst damage.. expcept they dont do it within one knockdown anymore.

 

Not sure what people you are fighting against.

 

We can chain 2 stuns (HS+Debilitate) in 5.5s duration, during which we can unload our damage. Against good players with good gear, we can hope to bring a squishy down to 50% HP (as long as they dont have a bubble or a guard), or a Merc to 70%. It all depends on crit.

 

After that the target can react and we lose our advantage. We can slow and hit a couple of times then we go oom and resort to auto attacks.

 

You simply cannot kill an equally geared opponent like that.

 

 

Oh I can still kill bad players and people with worse gear. Are you counting that?

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[Safgril]

Not sure what people you are fighting against.

 

We can chain 2 stuns (HS+Debilitate) in 5.5s duration, during which we can unload our damage. Against good players with good gear, we can hope to bring a squishy down to 50% HP (as long as they dont have a bubble or a guard), or a Merc to 70%. It all depends on crit.

 

After that the target can react and we lose our advantage. We can slow and hit a couple of times then we go oom and resort to auto attacks.

 

You simply cannot kill an equally geared opponent like that.

 

 

Oh I can still kill bad players and people with worse gear. Are you counting that?

 

and?

 

your point is?

 

I am dps too.. and i Cant kill anybody in one 5.5s duration.

 

learn to play your class better. I have seen some great OPs out there.

[Labradoraki]

and?

 

your point is?

 

I am dps too.. and i Cant kill anybody in one 5.5s duration.

 

learn to play your class better. I have seen some great OPs out there.

point is

 

I CAN KILL A NOOB THAT MAKES THE CLASS TOTALLY FINE IN MY PERSPECTIVE, THER EIS NO ISSUE

[Knifewrench]

I feel like a hypocrite for laughing at operatives and retorting with "L2P" when before they were the ones doing the same to others in demand of nerfs. The operatives that will and do survive are the ones smart enough to do the cheap crap they should be doing like getting on already trinketed players with 1+ teammate already attacking them.

 

Don't say you don't deserve the treatment.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Knifewrench

[carbocat]

OPratives is fine, i wreck all classes 1v1, exept marauders

[Labradoraki]

OPratives is fine, i wreck all classes 1v1, exept marauders

 

Yes i can kill any noob too wiht any class sorry that isnt an argument

[Zlashie]

Problem is Bioware is judging this class based on a selective few who decided it would be fun to ONLY attack when they could pop their buffs stacked with their surge focused gear. Ofcourse they will hit like trucks on the first 2 attacks, thats how they designed their class.

 

For the everyday Normal Scoundrel/operative, we were pretty balanced and didnt 2shot people. heck most of my kills took atleast 5 hits and im using rakata gear.

 

 

If bioware wants to fix operatives/Scoundrels in a fair way, they should have nerfed the passive 30% crit multiplier which are added to backblast and shoot first, As well as look into all the people stacking surge and other crit multipliers.

 

 

All in all they decided to turn scoundrels/operative into a wash cloth compared to other classes.

We dont have the utility to survive. Our only asset to this game is to "lock" one target and change the course of the battlefield. We do NOT have the survivability of the assassin/shadow nor do we have the capeability.

 

If bioware wants to stick with this nerf I surely hope they atleast give us the utility to back it up.

 

Also if they stick with this the future will be: "Scoundrel/operative if you want to heal, Gunslinger/sniper if you actually want to dps".

 

And no, I do not think a scoundrel is required to stack surge in order to actually deal damage.

 

-Z

Edited February 5, 2012 by Zlashie

[Darkrite]

No, what I'm saying is a burst class should not be able to take out an opponent 1vs1 in a single burst (or debilitate him so seriously that he is practically done for).

 

You detail energy costs, but you have means of recovering energy (cool head, available to all smugglers), you have means of resetting the fight and you even have means for healing after resetting the fight.

 

A 30% (and much more with gear and consumables/trinkets) initial burst on a tank, with added CC with added dots and all the options above is more than enough.

 

Warzones are a team game, operatives / scoundrels should not be able to destroy an opponent 1vs1 as they did. If you don't believe they could do that, then I don't know what to say: you simply never faced an operative who could and never played a class who got destroyed by them.

 

Bad reaction times didn't have anything to do with it, because you can't do jack **** while knocked down and afterward you were in a huge health deficit while the operative still had all the options above available to him.

 

I agree with you 100% that the knockdown needed to be nerfed. I've stated that several times, but the sustain costs (which you state "coolhead" is a sustain, which it's not in reality with the large 2m timer on it) aren't very high? Disappearing Act is a reset? Honestly if someone's using that to finish an opponent off, they're bad. Plain and simple bad. The ability is meant as a get away, and truthfully with AoE force push in the massive numbers of assassins, shadows and sage/inquisitors, it's almost a futile option anyhow.

 

So let me ask you though, do you feel that a DoT should cost 20 energy? Truthfully if you played the class, a DoT costing 20 energy is a viable option?

 

Again, the problem is burst reduction with no sustain retention. They took our burst away, but didn't give a sustain option so the minute we unload on anyone now, the burst is decent from our primary attacks, but once we're done we're done?

 

It just doesn't happen like that against any other class I've gone up against. I'm sorry, but every other class ranks up in damage if they're fully geared up and can continue a fight.

 

Your argument as far as I can see is "Blow all your cool downs to stay in a fight. Once those cool downs are done (including cool head), you're screwed, but that's alright you have a safety net of disappearing act as well, you could use that to open up again on an opponent to attempt to finish them off, or slip away, regardless of the amount of those that can effectively pop you out of it with an ability on a much lower cool down than your disappearing act itself."

 

That's how I read that.

 

I'm not saying from an outside perspective that ops and scoundrels aren't op. I can agree, because I've been waxed by ops myself as a scoundrel, it sucks. If they got the drop on me, chances are, I was dead. That got handled with the knockdown nerf. The armor reduc, damage reduc, etc. was going too far without actually giving lowered costs on abilities.

 

You want us out of stealth 50% of the fight, fine. Give us an option to survive that other 50% though instead of a weak "absorb" which is a joke really and doesn't compare to even a sorc/sages absorb. Or give us more sustainable damage. I don't mind fighting out of stealth, I really don't. I just want to survive the fight and not be a joke against a sentinel that has 3x the damage output, a disappearing act of his own, an AoE knockdown, etc.

 

For those saying ops/scound is op. Play one sometime. Spend the time to level one up all the way and then write that they're op. I know your viewpoint will change slightly. Get one to 50, then get in the WZs there against full BM guys, even if you're at BM gear and it'll change. When you see that your energy costs are absurd, then you'll know why there's quite a few of us complaining about it. As it is, it sounds like a witch hunt to take down a burst damage class to no burst damage, but also not giving them sustained damage.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Darkrite

[Athrins]

Sorry if this isn't completely relevant to the topic at hand, but I just feel bad if I shut up about it.

 

I just rolled an Op (lvl 23 as I type) and it's a crazy class, I tell you. I don't play concealment, but lethality is seriously... beneficial. I'm not specced into healing but my healing is freaking good, even compared to my 31 point bodyguard Merc, when I stand back to help some team mates. My AoE and sustained DoT dmg will put me in the 200-300k dmg range every warzone in PUGs.

 

I can 1v1 lvl 48's and 1v2 people of my lvl without breaking much sweat. This is not bragging, because this was not possible on any other class I played, aside from the occasional baddies I bumped into. I feel sorry for the Guardians and Shadows wailing at me as I dump my dmg in their face.

 

I've never had so much fun with any other class. And I can stealth in and out of combat.. My Merc's jealous.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Athrins

[Zlashie]

I agree with you 100% that the knockdown needed to be nerfed. I've stated that several times, but the sustain costs (which you state "coolhead" is a sustain, which it's not in reality with the large 2m timer on it) aren't very high? Disappearing Act is a reset? Honestly if someone's using that to finish an opponent off, they're bad. Plain and simple bad. The ability is meant as a get away, and truthfully with AoE force push in the massive numbers of assassins, shadows and sage/inquisitors, it's almost a futile option anyhow.

 

So let me ask you though, do you feel that a DoT should cost 20 energy? Truthfully if you played the class, a DoT costing 20 energy is a viable option?

 

Again, the problem is burst reduction with no sustain retention. They took our burst away, but didn't give a sustain option so the minute we unload on anyone now, the burst is decent from our primary attacks, but once we're done we're done?

 

It just doesn't happen like that against any other class I've gone up against. I'm sorry, but every other class ranks up in damage if they're fully geared up and can continue a fight.

 

Your argument as far as I can see is "Blow all your cool downs to stay in a fight. Once those cool downs are done (including cool head), you're screwed, but that's alright you have a safety net of disappearing act as well, you could use that to open up again on an opponent to attempt to finish them off, or slip away, regardless of the amount of those that can effectively pop you out of it with an ability on a much lower cool down than your disappearing act itself."

 

That's how I read that.

 

I'm not saying from an outside perspective that ops and scoundrels aren't op. I can agree, because I've been waxed by ops myself as a scoundrel, it sucks. If they got the drop on me, chances are, I was dead. That got handled with the knockdown nerf. The armor reduc, damage reduc, etc. was going too far without actually giving lowered costs on abilities.

 

You want us out of stealth 50% of the fight, fine. Give us an option to survive that other 50% though instead of a weak "absorb" which is a joke really and doesn't compare to even a sorc/sages absorb. Or give us more sustainable damage. I don't mind fighting out of stealth, I really don't. I just want to survive the fight and not be a joke against a sentinel that has 3x the damage output, a disappearing act of his own, an AoE knockdown, etc.

 

For those saying ops/scound is op. Play one sometime. Spend the time to level one up all the way and then write that they're op. I know your viewpoint will change slightly. Get one to 50, then get in the WZs there against full BM guys, even if you're at BM gear and it'll change. When you see that your energy costs are absurd, then you'll know why there's quite a few of us complaining about it. As it is, it sounds like a witch hunt to take down a burst damage class to no burst damage, but also not giving them sustained damage.

 

This 100%.

 

The Scoundrel/OP only has one ability. To find a target and remove it in attempt of changing the course of battlefield.

 

Removing our burst turns us into a useless asset to the class list.

 

The initial problem is that a selective few decided to focus entirely on surge and top it off with biochem buffs and trinkets causing the effect in which you feel "burst in 2 hits".

 

In my opinion if they want to fix this class reduce the benefit of surge, dont remove our ability to actually deal damage.

 

-Z

[Labradoraki]

go to 50, get gear and play without trinkets/biochem and then talk

[Ryotknife]

ops are still very powerful and still wreak people. they dont wreck an entire group with impunity like they used to, but they still pretty much win almost any 1v1 fight with most of the hp intact. they are much more balanced and are still galaxies away from being UP. i hesitate to call them OP still.

 

as to the other poster saying that all ops can do is remove one person from play, you realize that is the most universally useful ability to bring to pvp? even more so than healing or protection. the ability to remove any person quickly will decide more games than any other pvp centric ability. whereas both protection and healing can find themselves being not quite as useful in many situations where you need to kill people quickly and not drag the fight out.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Labradoraki]

pumb, this discussion needs to contine

[Seurot]

ops are still very powerful and still wreak people. they dont wreck an entire group with impunity like they used to, but they still pretty much win almost any 1v1 fight with most of the hp intact. they are much more balanced and are still galaxies away from being UP. i hesitate to call them OP still.

Operatives never 'wrecked an entire group' of equal geared people. Lowbies or players with no gear..yes, ,maybe. Part of the problem is all you see are vids of people highlight reels. Noone will make a boring video of what happens after you run away, waiting to get back into stealth, or vanishing and waiting around for CDs, or stealthing around looking for the straggler who is at half health, or just getting blown up in group pvp cause operatives seem to get focused right away by good groups since they know they are squishy and dangerous if left alone.

 

as to the other poster saying that all ops can do is remove one person from play, you realize that is the most universally useful ability to bring to pvp? even more so than healing or protection. the ability to remove any person quickly will decide more games than any other pvp centric ability. whereas both protection and healing can find themselves being not quite as useful in many situations where you need to kill people quickly and not drag the fight out.

and that single ability seems to be the knockback from what i see in the warzones. Knockback should be nerfed.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Seurot

[Auxili]

they dont wreck an entire group with impunity like they used to

 

Please don't post infactuals, you're part of the problem

[Brimmer]

The class is fine Im playing a smuggler, aka weaker than your class but a "mirror" as bioware calls it. The class is fine.

 

Smuggler:

 

Prep:

 

Defence screen

 

flechette round

 

*attack time*

 

shoot first

 

Backblast

 

pistol whip

 

pugnacity

 

vital shot

 

sucker punch

 

take cover

 

sabotage charge

 

flurry of bolts

 

...............................

 

That's how my 13k heath smuggler takes down any class with 20k health

[Labradoraki]

I agree with you 100% that the knockdown needed to be nerfed. I've stated that several times, but the sustain costs (which you state "coolhead" is a sustain, which it's not in reality with the large 2m timer on it) aren't very high? Disappearing Act is a reset? Honestly if someone's using that to finish an opponent off, they're bad. Plain and simple bad. The ability is meant as a get away, and truthfully with AoE force push in the massive numbers of assassins, shadows and sage/inquisitors, it's almost a futile option anyhow.

 

So let me ask you though, do you feel that a DoT should cost 20 energy? Truthfully if you played the class, a DoT costing 20 energy is a viable option?

 

Again, the problem is burst reduction with no sustain retention. They took our burst away, but didn't give a sustain option so the minute we unload on anyone now, the burst is decent from our primary attacks, but once we're done we're done?

 

It just doesn't happen like that against any other class I've gone up against. I'm sorry, but every other class ranks up in damage if they're fully geared up and can continue a fight.

 

Your argument as far as I can see is "Blow all your cool downs to stay in a fight. Once those cool downs are done (including cool head), you're screwed, but that's alright you have a safety net of disappearing act as well, you could use that to open up again on an opponent to attempt to finish them off, or slip away, regardless of the amount of those that can effectively pop you out of it with an ability on a much lower cool down than your disappearing act itself."

 

That's how I read that.

 

I'm not saying from an outside perspective that ops and scoundrels aren't op. I can agree, because I've been waxed by ops myself as a scoundrel, it sucks. If they got the drop on me, chances are, I was dead. That got handled with the knockdown nerf. The armor reduc, damage reduc, etc. was going too far without actually giving lowered costs on abilities.

 

You want us out of stealth 50% of the fight, fine. Give us an option to survive that other 50% though instead of a weak "absorb" which is a joke really and doesn't compare to even a sorc/sages absorb. Or give us more sustainable damage. I don't mind fighting out of stealth, I really don't. I just want to survive the fight and not be a joke against a sentinel that has 3x the damage output, a disappearing act of his own, an AoE knockdown, etc.

 

For those saying ops/scound is op. Play one sometime. Spend the time to level one up all the way and then write that they're op. I know your viewpoint will change slightly. Get one to 50, then get in the WZs there against full BM guys, even if you're at BM gear and it'll change. When you see that your energy costs are absurd, then you'll know why there's quite a few of us complaining about it. As it is, it sounds like a witch hunt to take down a burst damage class to no burst damage, but also not giving them sustained damage.

tell that to the noobs that thing they know everything