So Why is Threat Invisible?

[XLauncher]

 

If they want to add threat meters to the game to satisfy the whiners who can't handle a game without them, so be it. But are they NECESSARY? No. They're just demanded by people who don't seem to be able to function without the game spoon-feeding everything to them.

 

I was considering a response in my mind until I got this far. You seem to be convinced that those of us who are pro meter would be unable to play (in spite of the fact that we're playing right now) without meters. I don't think I really have anything to say to that.

[Mungadai]

Why do we have an invisible game mechanic? It's like not being able to see health or resource bars. What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Why is gravity invisible, why do we have a scientific concept we can not see? It's not like we can't see it in action every day in a myriad of circumstances. What sense does it make to keep gravity invisible to us? What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Some bad answers I want to head off at the pass: "I can sense how much gravity I have when i fall out of a tree" Unless you're a super advanced Ultra-mega robot from Japan, no you can't. You just can't. And even the robot would need to know all the gravitational values anyway, and we just don't have this information. You might have a vague notion of how much gravity is acting upon you, but this is the whole problem I'm on about. Why not just show us like aging or weight gain? I can see someone get old, and i can see people get fat. Why can't we get a clear visual representation of gravity acting on people?

 

And I don't want to hear how you can fall from a 20 story building better then someone else, quit waving around your gravity epeen.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Mungadai

[LyriaFrost]

I was considering a response in my mind until I got this far. You seem to be convinced that those of us who are pro meter would be unable to play (in spite of the fact that we're playing right now) without meters. I don't think I really have anything to say to that.

 

There's a difference between being "pro meter" and "OMG THE GAME MUST HAVE METERS!!!!!111"

 

Like I said, if they add them, that's fine. I personally don't see a need for them. The people who say "They'd be nice to have", hey, I agree with that. They would be "nice to have" for them. It's the people who are frothing at the mouth and DEMANDING them, and calling everyone who doesn't use them "baddies", "noobs", or whatever else that make me roll my eyes. Those are the ones that I tend to compare to "whiners who can't function without them."

 

There are essentially several "levels" of the argument.

 

Rabidly anti-meter/addon

Anti-meter/addon

Neutral

Pro-meter/addon

Rabidly pro-meter/addon

 

I'm somewhere in the middle. Probably tending a little towards the 'anti' side. The people who can calmly argue "This is why they're nice to have, and adding them would be nice because..." are fine. The ones (on both sides) that delve into the extremes are the ones that make me tend towards somewhat inflammatory remarks, which I should probably scale back a bit. General forums always end up making my blood pressure go up.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Axcys]

Man, does anyone remember what it was like before wow spoiled the crap out of everyone? Even in the BWL days in that game there was a threat ceiling with the drakes and everyone just had to be good enough at their job to do it properly. DPS had to watch their numbers and KNOW when they were bursting too hard and tanks had to count off their wing buffets. Every raider had to be comfortable with their tank and know their limits or their own.

 

Man back in the day when people actually had to be decent at a game to get anywhere.... you had to test threat mechanics yourself to quantify them. It's like physics with differential equations vs high school physics. In one they hand you the equations and you plug in the numbers and don't give it a second thought. In the other they make you go get the equations yourself. So put on your big boy pants, go test threat mechanics yourself, don't raid with baddies, and stop crying about everything thats not made easy for you. I swear, its like mmo's these days are a preschool playground.

[nethervoid]

Why don't they post boss strategies? Why should we have to figure that out for ourselves? I mean it's just additional information.

 

Threat is invisible to make the game harder. If you show threat, it becomes significantly easier.

[Thundergulch]

Man, does anyone remember what it was like before wow spoiled the crap out of everyone? Even in the BWL days in that game there was a threat ceiling with the drakes and everyone just had to be good enough at their job to do it properly. DPS had to watch their numbers and KNOW when they were bursting too hard and tanks had to count off their wing buffets. Every raider had to be comfortable with their tank and know their limits or their own.

 

Man back in the day when people actually had to be decent at a game to get anywhere.... you had to test threat mechanics yourself to quantify them. It's like physics with differential equations vs high school physics. In one they hand you the equations and you plug in the numbers and don't give it a second thought. In the other they make you go get the equations yourself. So put on your big boy pants, go test threat mechanics yourself, don't raid with baddies, and stop crying about everything thats not made easy for you. I swear, its like mmo's these days are a preschool playground.

 

This man gets it.

::clapping::

[Blotter]

Man, does anyone remember what it was like before wow spoiled the crap out of everyone? Even in the BWL days in that game there was a threat ceiling with the drakes and everyone just had to be good enough at their job to do it properly. DPS had to watch their numbers and KNOW when they were bursting too hard and tanks had to count off their wing buffets. Every raider had to be comfortable with their tank and know their limits or their own.

 

Man back in the day when people actually had to be decent at a game to get anywhere.... you had to test threat mechanics yourself to quantify them. It's like physics with differential equations vs high school physics. In one they hand you the equations and you plug in the numbers and don't give it a second thought. In the other they make you go get the equations yourself. So put on your big boy pants, go test threat mechanics yourself, don't raid with baddies, and stop crying about everything thats not made easy for you. I swear, its like mmo's these days are a preschool playground.

 

And there we have it. Nailed it. Asked, answered, and buried next to Jimmy Hoffa. Moving on...

[CaptainHagbard]

Why is gravity invisible, why do we have a scientific concept we can not see? It's not like we can't see it in action every day in a myriad of circumstances. What sense does it make to keep gravity invisible to us? What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Some bad answers I want to head off at the pass: "I can sense how much gravity I have when i fall out of a tree" Unless you're a super advanced Ultra-mega robot from Japan, no you can't. You just can't. And even the robot would need to know all the gravitational values anyway, and we just don't have this information. You might have a vague notion of how much gravity is acting upon you, but this is the whole problem I'm on about. Why not just show us like aging or weight gain? I can see someone get old, and i can see people get fat. Why can't we get a clear visual representation of gravity acting on people?

 

And I don't want to hear how you can fall from a 20 story building better then someone else, quit waving around your gravity epeen.

 

I usally don't like real-life-illustrations for MMO-specific problems, because they mostly start with "If I buy a car...". But that one is actually pretty good and illustrates the point very well.

[Aloro]

With not showing the target of my target there are some mobs that you can't actually tell who they are targeting. This droid which has no discernible front is attacking someone in melee range as lasers are not hitting a ranged but there are so many effects going on I can't tell if it is hitting me or not.

 

Fair point; sometimes it isn't obvious who has aggro, with certain mobs. But then I'd really like to have target of target in game, which solves this problem pretty nicely.

[Littletza]

I'm actually enjoying reading this thread and I can actually understand the OP. I'll add that I do enjoy the people saying "you don't need it because I never loose aggro". Trust me, you do - you're just lying through your teeth because you'll never team with only smart dps:D

 

As for some suggestions as to why:

 

• There are no timed raid encounters as of yet where DPS are in a position to up their DPS to ludicrous levels and therefor would need to monitor their threat levels. This means the devs could focus their energy on other aspecs of the game (meaning that when the mechanic is required, it will be introduced - either through BW or third party addon like Omen)
  
• The dev working on the threat meter ran into issues with refresh rates and GPU whining (pure speculation on my part)
  
• BW wishes to divert the focus from the usual wow-spreadsheet gaming towards a more 'oldschool' style of play where you play the game rather than download the BIS/level manual and play by those instructions.
  

 

There, 3 different options to dive into.

[SlickDevlan]

Man, does anyone remember what it was like before wow spoiled the crap out of everyone? Even in the BWL days in that game there was a threat ceiling with the drakes and everyone just had to be good enough at their job to do it properly. DPS had to watch their numbers and KNOW when they were bursting too hard and tanks had to count off their wing buffets. Every raider had to be comfortable with their tank and know their limits or their own.

 

Man back in the day when people actually had to be decent at a game to get anywhere.... you had to test threat mechanics yourself to quantify them. It's like physics with differential equations vs high school physics. In one they hand you the equations and you plug in the numbers and don't give it a second thought. In the other they make you go get the equations yourself. So put on your big boy pants, go test threat mechanics yourself, don't raid with baddies, and stop crying about everything thats not made easy for you. I swear, its like mmo's these days are a preschool playground.

 

+9000 internets!

 

I remember when Omen became mandatory. On or near patch days were always fun because Omen was always a little out of whack. It made doing content with certain people who couldn't play without it...interesting.

[Blotter]

This forum really is worthless. No one even reads the posts, they just make a new post without having the slightest clue about any points that are being made. It's not a discussion, it's a spam fest. Worthless, completely worthless.

 

Welcome to the intertubez.

[Joonbeams]

Why is gravity invisible, why do we have a scientific concept we can not see? It's not like we can't see it in action every day in a myriad of circumstances. What sense does it make to keep gravity invisible to us? What possible reason could there be for this?

 

Some bad answers I want to head off at the pass: "I can sense how much gravity I have when i fall out of a tree" Unless you're a super advanced Ultra-mega robot from Japan, no you can't. You just can't. And even the robot would need to know all the gravitational values anyway, and we just don't have this information. You might have a vague notion of how much gravity is acting upon you, but this is the whole problem I'm on about. Why not just show us like aging or weight gain? I can see someone get old, and i can see people get fat. Why can't we get a clear visual representation of gravity acting on people?

 

And I don't want to hear how you can fall from a 20 story building better then someone else, quit waving around your gravity epeen.

 

This is a joke right? Nice one, haha. Almost had me there for a second.

[Joonbeams]

I'm actually enjoying reading this thread and I can actually understand the OP. I'll add that I do enjoy the people saying "you don't need it because I never loose aggro". Trust me, you do - you're just lying through your teeth because you'll never team with only smart dps:D

 

As for some suggestions as to why:

 

• There are no timed raid encounters as of yet where DPS are in a position to up their DPS to ludicrous levels and therefor would need to monitor their threat levels. This means the devs could focus their energy on other aspecs of the game (meaning that when the mechanic is required, it will be introduced - either through BW or third party addon like Omen)
  
• The dev working on the threat meter ran into issues with refresh rates and GPU whining (pure speculation on my part)
  
• BW wishes to divert the focus from the usual wow-spreadsheet gaming towards a more 'oldschool' style of play where you play the game rather than download the BIS/level manual and play by those instructions.
  

 

There, 3 different options to dive into.

 

Finally, someone actually trying to answer the question.

[lordgracy]

Ok so in most MMOS there is no visible threat meter natively. The reason why tanks dont really need them is because the devs usually code the threat algorythms to favor a tank that knows how to play his class and if they are using thier rotations properly and generating threat on the proper targets at the proper time there should really be no issue.

On the other hand it would be a nice to have just to see for theorycrafting purposes. Also the devs algorythms might be off. I hear a lot of people complain about the gaurdian jugg aggro and that its not adequate. Could just be heresay though.

[XLauncher]

There's a difference between being "pro meter" and "OMG THE GAME MUST HAVE METERS!!!!!111"

 

Like I said, if they add them, that's fine. I personally don't see a need for them. The people who say "They'd be nice to have", hey, I agree with that. They would be "nice to have" for them. It's the people who are frothing at the mouth and DEMANDING them, and calling everyone who doesn't use them "baddies", "noobs", or whatever else that make me roll my eyes.

 

Look at the first page or so of the thread. I'm sure you read them, but I'm just asking you to glance at them again and refresh your memory. The OP asked a simple question about game design philosophy and was descended upon by posters presuming him to be helpless without meters. It's no surprise that sort of frustration would lead to people on the other side of the matter responding in kind.

 

I can play MMOs quite fine without being accurately aware of my threat and it's been frustrating wading through this thread, having accusations of being bad levied at me because I enjoy manipulating solid variables more than I enjoy relying on a nebulous "feeling."

 

But, I've changed my mind. You seem reasonable enough at the moment, so let's talk.

 

The reason I call your method a "gut feeling" is because you're relying on the sum total of your experiences. In of itself, that's not a bad thing; the opposite, really. However, your experiences, assuming you play with a wide variety of people, are wildly different. The feeling of threat you worked out while playing with Tank A may get you killed while playing with Tank B because Tank B's connection is awful and he doesn't run a rotation as fluidly as Tank A. Then you may play with Tank C who puts out ridiculous amounts of threat and could allow for damage much fiercer than you're putting out.

 

So, in your example, DPS A's experience with his Make Hole in Mob attack may be that he can use it twice before he needs to use Poke Mob with a Q-Tip a few times before the heat's off. That experience won't be valid in every case. The only way he would know is to develop a new experience with you, which will then not be valid in every case.

 

It's all very trial and error. Which is one way to design a game. I'm proposing that it's not the best way to design a game, but as I said many, many pages ago, I can respect Bioware's decision to go that route.

 

In contrast, we have the threat meter. For a moment, nevermind that this means fights could be designed around the assumption that players could accurately control a mob's aggro and would be more challenging by default. Let's just focus on the mechanic of a meter itself.

 

All a meter does is give you information. It tells you that you have x amount of threat more than the next guy. It doesn't tell you what you should do about that. It doesn't tell you, "oh, you have more threat than this enemy has health remaining, ignore it and work on the next one." It doesn't tell you, "if you stun this enemy now, you'll still lose threat, but it'll be immobile long enough for one your taunts to come off cooldown." I could go on, but you have the idea. A meter's use is to provide information to make decisions about the next several seconds you wouldn't reliably be able to make on your own if, like many of us, you aren't Rainman.

 

This idea that all people who use meters do so as a crutch is complete and utter nonsense. As the Sith say, information is power.

Edited February 2, 2012 by XLauncher

[Mashien]

I asked WHY we can't see them.

 

I never said I desperately needed them.

 

I never complained that I couldn't play, or that the game was broken without them.

 

I asked WHY we can't see them.

 

You insist on talking about ANYTHING BUT THIS. You know why? Because you don't know. So could you please just stop now?

 

Im going to stop reading here.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Mashien

[Littletza]

Im going to stop reading here.

 

You have asked a question NO ONE HERE CAN ANSWER, we are not Bioware. Not only that you then you proceed to take a dump on anyone that treats this thread as a discussion.

 

You have got to either be trolling, or fail to understand the word "Forum"

 

reread my reply on previous page.

[Joonbeams]

Look at the first page or so of the thread. I'm sure you read them, but I'm just asking you to glance at them again and refresh your memory. The OP asked a simple question about game design philosophy and was descended upon by posters presuming him to be helpless without meters. It's no surprise that sort of frustration would lead to people on the other side of the matter responding in kind.

 

 

This. This is what's amazing about this thread. The OP at least NEVER said, "OMG I need a threat meter now or Imma gonna die!" He never argued that it was vital to tanking. Never said he couldn't hold his own. Never said many of the other strawmen responses here. It was a simple question about why this particular mechanic is has no visible meter.

 

"It makes you have to actually play by feel rather than by rigid algorithms" is a fair answer even if one disagrees. "It's not needed" or "Stop wanting to be spoonfed" are non-responsive, pointless strawmen responses -- at least to the question put forth by the OP.

[LyriaFrost]

Look at the first page or so of the thread. I'm sure you read them, but I'm just asking you to glance at them again and refresh your memory. The OP asked a simple question about game design philosophy and was descended upon by posters presuming him to be helpless without meters. It's no surprise that sort of frustration would lead to people on the other side of the matter responding in kind.

 

Sadly, that's game forums for you. Hyperbole and accusations fly wildly in every direction. Hell, I posted that I don't see a need for them and function just fine without them, and someone started instantly haranguing me for being a "noob", telling me I was "an idiot", etc. While the OP's initial query wasn't inflammatory, I think to some people it came across as something like "Why can't we see this? We need to be able to see this!" There are always going to be people on both sides of an issue that go WAY beyond civil discourse on the matter. It's what internet forums are about, sadly.

 

I can play MMOs quite fine without being accurately aware of my threat and it's been frustrating wading through this thread, having accusations of being bad levied at me because I enjoy manipulating solid variables more than I enjoy relying on a nebulous "feeling."

 

Oh, trust me, it's been frustrating for me too.

 

But, I've changed my mind. You seem reasonable enough at the moment, so let's talk.

 

Alright then.

 

The reason I call your method a "gut feeling" is because you're relying on the sum total of your experiences. In of itself, that's not a bad thing; the opposite, really. However, your experiences, assuming you play with a wide variety of people, are wildly different. The feeling of threat you worked out while playing with Tank A may get you killed while playing with Tank B because Tank B's connection is awful and he doesn't run a rotation as fluidly as Tank A. Then you may play with Tank C who puts out ridiculous amounts of threat and could allow for damage much fiercer than you're putting out.

 

It will differ based on skill level and gear, to be certain. But the base levels will always be the same. Like I said in another post, if I know for a fact that Tank Attack-A generates enough threat to maintain aggro for two DPS Attack-B's (barring wildly over-geared/buffed DPS). Lag, gear, etc will always be a factor, so those just have to be circumstantial. They'd affect people even with meters, as they'd have to drop back substantially if the tank's lagging.

 

The thing is, DPS classes generally tend to have aggro-dumping moves to deal with situations like that. The tank goes to build threat, you begin your attack sequence, and if you pull aggro, you simply have to make a mental note of "Tank may not have the best gear/may be tanking in a different fashion/lagging/etc" and scale back a bit, to determine their rhythm for this particular tank. To me, that's actually FUN. I enjoy it always being different, and never knowing with 100% certainty what I can get away with. Or pushing it to see just what I CAN get away with. This is called "making the tank sweat."

 

So, in your example, DPS A's experience with his Make Hole in Mob attack may be that he can use it twice before he needs to use Poke Mob with a Q-Tip a few times before the heat's off. That experience won't be valid in every case. The only way he would know is to develop a new experience with you, which will then not be valid in every case.

 

It won't be, no. But like I said, that's part of the fun. And that's what separates "great", "good", "adequate", and "poor" tanks. As well as DPS. And healers. You have to constantly be able to adjust, on the fly, to make sure things work smoothly. With a meter, a large part of that is taken away; you always have that little window saying "Hey dummy, back off DPS" or "hey dummy, generate more threat", etc.

 

It's all very trial and error. Which is one way to design a game. I'm proposing that it's not the best way to design a game, but as I said many, many pages ago, I can respect Bioware's decision to go that route.

 

It's trial and error initially, yes, until you get a feel for how your group works together. But that's the case even WITH meters. Everybody plays slightly differently.

 

In contrast, we have the threat meter. For a moment, nevermind that this means fights could be designed around the assumption that players could accurately control a mob's aggro and would be more challenging by default. Let's just focus on the mechanic of a meter itself.

 

All a meter does is give you information. It tells you that you have x amount of threat more than the next guy. It doesn't tell you what you should do about that. It doesn't tell you, "oh, you have more threat than this enemy has health remaining, ignore it and work on the next one." It doesn't tell you, "if you stun this enemy now, you'll still lose threat, but it'll be immobile long enough for one your taunts to come off cooldown." I could go on, but you have the idea. A meter's use is to provide information to make decisions about the next several seconds you wouldn't reliably be able to make on your own if, like many of us, you aren't Rainman.

 

Meters provide information, yes. That's a given. However, IMO, what it does is make things "easier". You will always know, at a glance, whether or not you can go full-out, have to hold off, etc. You could be half-afk dealing with something, glance back at the screen, and instantly know exactly how much you can do -- because the meter is telling you. Everything else you mentioned all comes down to player skill -- knowing when to use their abilities, etc.

 

I suppose ultimately, my personal view is that meters (especially if used en-masse) lower the necessary skill ceiling to do things. They allow for less attention to be paid to what's going on, as they direct more of the player's attention ot the meters, rather than watching for timings, watching for tank/dps/etc using certain abilities. The MAXIMUM skill ceiling is still there, of course, but the meters, addons, etc, allow someone who may not be as skilled to progress as far, or even farther, than someone who doesn't use them -- simply because to a certain extent, the meter DOES "play the game for them" by announcing things that they would otherwise have to learn through practice, trial and error, etc.

 

This idea that all people who use meters do so as a crutch is complete and utter nonsense. As the Sith say, information is power.

 

Not ALL people who use them do so as a crutch. But you cannot argue that there aren't those that do. There are plenty of people who WOULD perform far worse than they do, if the meters were taken away. Simply because they haven't learned how to play without them.

 

(Jeez, this post is long)

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Vitellius]

Once the threat meter became a largely popular community add-on, Blizzard implemented one within the game, that showed EXACT numbers, which were different from the community calculated ones at the time.

 

 

In other words, Blizzard revealed their threat mechanics.

 

They had to. At that point, the cat was out of the bag. Blizzard designed a game (as most MMOs are designed) to work were the threat was invisible. Once players found a way to read it, then there was a split in the game play.

 

On one hand you had players that were playing as intended and on the other you had players with a distinct advantage. Since nobody wants to be at a disadvantage it became something that everyone HAD to have.

 

Now, Blizzard is in a corner. If they continue to develop new content without threat meters in mind, then players will continue to have an advantage. If they DO make new content with threat meters in mind, then players will HAVE to look to a 3rd party program.

 

The only option: Design new content knowing that players have a threat meter and provide that threat meter officially in the game.

 

Players get used to that, then come here to a game that is just like most MMOs and wonder why it's not here. Going as far as to believe it handicaps them somehow.

[Kasperion]

Meters provide information, yes. That's a given. However, IMO, what it does is make things "easier".

Then why are you not crusading to have health meters removed from the game?

 

"Good" players would know through the in-game visuals who in their group/raid was taking damage and will eventually learn to guess just "how much" damage is being taken. So why not remove such an obvious "dummy gauge" and play the game as you believe it should be played?

 

Every argument against threat meters can be made against health meters to the same effect:

 

"I know my X ability generates enough threat for 2 of my DPS'ers Y abilities" can easily be translated into "I know my X heal generates enough health for 2 of the bosses Y abilities". And so on, and so on...

 

Seriously, at least be consistent in your philosophy. If you want to disallow meters because they make the game "easy", then the health meters have to go, too.

 

Heck, I don't even care one way or the other about threat meters, I just cannot stand the hypocrisy.

[TheHeadCapper]

You learn to understand how much threat your are putting out through playing the game. This is how we did it in MMO's that don't hold your hand like WoW for years.

[trashguy]

It really is simple, it isn't needed. People are still relying on their crutches they used in other MMOs. Personally i liked the days before all the UI mods with meters galore. It changed the game play to a bunch of nerds arguing over spread sheets. A combat log would be nice though, although I can't play it off when I miss a shield wall

[GalacticKegger]

It's invisible until the healer meets it face first, then it becomes quite visible.