I think the mentality of "we'll put it in later" has killed MMOs

[gnetikjakhammer]

nobody wants to take a risk anymore. Most MMOs just deliver the bare minimum at launch, then get feedback and then add things in that should have been in there in the 1st place.

 

Some of you may argue that's the smart thing to do or whatever fairytale explanation you come up with, but the fact of the matter is once you lose that trust with a gamer, you're pretty much not getting it back.

 

Thoughts?

[Cmdluke]

would you prefer them to take another 3 years to release the game so everything that 'you' want at launch can be in it?

 

the problem is that games (especially mmos) have to be released in order for them to get the money to be continually developed. You have to prioritize what is most important to have in at launch and what can be added in later patches.

 

If you took the time to have every single 'standard' feature that all mmos 'should' have, they would all take 10 years to produce.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Cmdluke

[Vydor_HC]

nobody wants to take a risk anymore. Most MMOs just deliver the bare minimum at launch, then get feedback and then add things in that should have been in there in the 1st place.

 

Some of you may argue that's the smart thing to do or whatever fairytale explanation you come up with, but the fact of the matter is once you lose that trust with a gamer, you're pretty much not getting it back.

 

Thoughts?

 

What your saying then is developers do not have an idea of what they want to do with their MMO and just let the customers sway their design choices?

[gnetikjakhammer]

What your saying then is developers do not have an idea of what they want to do with their MMO and just let the customers sway their design choices?

 

Kind of. Aside from voice acting, what long term plans has bioware made clear to the community? They put all their eggs in the basket of voice-overs and it was received half-heartedly by the community. They've indicated NO other alternatives to give them that unique aspect to set them apart from every other MMO.

 

The past month has had no major changes, or even indication that they are planning to shake things up. It's just little trickle "here we'll add this feature because there were SO many complaints" and they don't even get it fully right.

[Amdramnar]

Some of you may argue that's the smart thing to do or whatever fairytale explanation ...

 

Thoughts?

 

You want our fairytale explanation, not sure you I want to throw out valid reasons just so you can troll them.

[Cmdluke]

What your saying then is developers do not have an idea of what they want to do with their MMO and just let the customers sway their design choices?

 

good point. I think some people need to remember that this is the game that Bioware wanted to make, not the game that (insert random QQer's name here) wanted Bioware to make for them.

[inseeisyou]

nobody wants to take a risk anymore. Most MMOs just deliver the bare minimum at launch, then get feedback and then add things in that should have been in there in the 1st place.

 

Some of you may argue that's the smart thing to do or whatever fairytale explanation you come up with, but the fact of the matter is once you lose that trust with a gamer, you're pretty much not getting it back.

 

Thoughts?

 

It is absolutely the smart thing to do from a financial stand point. This "release and patch later" mentality is pretty much present in all video games these days now that it is assumed everyone has the internet (patch distribution) and even consoles can receive patches now...

 

Assuming a reasonably conservative and mathematically manageable subscriber number of 1,000,000, they generated approximately $45,000,000 in revenue by releasing at the end of December instead of the end of March (When perhaps they would have the Legacy system, LFG tool and other "features" that are highly demanded).

 

Bottom line is that even if they lose some subscribers because of the early release, many will simply come back when the "desired" features are in game and for those that don't, it won't represent anything near a $45 million loss.

[gnetikjakhammer]

You want our fairytale explanation, not sure you I want to throw out valid reasons just so you can troll them.

 

It was a jab at the community for their off-the-wall explanations to defend bioware.

[Pheroras]

nobody wants to take a risk anymore. Most MMOs just deliver the bare minimum at launch, then get feedback and then add things in that should have been in there in the 1st place.

 

Some of you may argue that's the smart thing to do or whatever fairytale explanation you come up with, but the fact of the matter is once you lose that trust with a gamer, you're pretty much not getting it back.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

my guess is that the development team hasn't played an MMO before, no other conclusion makes sense to me

 

[lorylke]

would you prefer them to take another 3 years to release the game so everything that 'you' want at launch can be in it?

 

the problem is that games (especially mmos) have to be released in order for them to get the money to be continually developed. You have to prioritize what is most important to have in at launch and what can be added in later patches.

 

If you took the time to have every single 'standard' feature that all mmos 'should' have, they would all take 10 years to produce.

 

You know this game did take at least 3 years to make (from official announcement), and if they didn't spend all their time and money doing voiceovers, this game would've been several times better.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

It was a jab at the community for their off-the-wall explanations to defend bioware.

 

What off the wall explanations? MMO's are never finished, and they have to be released sometime.

[kitharen]

While the Diablo series isn't a traditional MMO it still has some aspects of this genre. Read this post about how brave the devs are when it comes to changing fundamental aspects of the game to deliver the best experience possible: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4325959/Systems_Changes-1_19_2012#blog

 

I find that quite impressive.

 

Reminder: Even though this is Blizzard please restrain from WoW comparisons here.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

While the Diablo series isn't a traditional MMO it still has some aspects of this genre. Read this post about how brave the devs are when it comes to changing fundamental aspects of the game to deliver the best experience possible: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4325959/Systems_Changes-1_19_2012#blog

 

I find that quite impressive.

 

Reminder: Even though this is Blizzard please restrain from WoW comparisons here.

 

Is this a joke?

 

They took out scrolls of identification and removed some stuff. Where was I supposed to be impressed?

Edited February 1, 2012 by SamuraBob_Fl

[just_the_flu]

nobody wants to take a risk anymore. Most MMOs just deliver the bare minimum at launch, then get feedback and then add things in that should have been in there in the 1st place.

 

it's not just MMO's that do this, Every genre is like that.

Companies set a date and they make it, finished or not.

its not like the old days where release dates were postponed because of further testing- you know the days before live updates and patches... the days where games had to be finished and bug free before hitting the market.

[gnetikjakhammer]

While the Diablo series isn't a traditional MMO it still has some aspects of this genre. Read this post about how brave the devs are when it comes to changing fundamental aspects of the game to deliver the best experience possible: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4325959/Systems_Changes-1_19_2012#blog

 

I find that quite impressive.

 

Reminder: Even though this is Blizzard please restrain from WoW comparisons here.

 

You see? THAT is why blizzard is the most successful gaming company in the history of gaming. Even if you take WOW out of the equation, they still have a powerhouse lineup of games that break the mold of the genre.

[TotalKitty]

would you prefer them to take another 3 years to release the game so everything that 'you' want at launch can be in it?

 

the problem is that games (especially mmos) have to be released in order for them to get the money to be continually developed. You have to prioritize what is most important to have in at launch and what can be added in later patches.

 

If you took the time to have every single 'standard' feature that all mmos 'should' have, they would all take 10 years to produce.

 

Neither will they make much money, if the so-called innovative things are missing. Most of these things that other MMOs got, does not take 3 years to develope. They can pretty much be done in a month, which is a good excuse to wait with the release.

A month compared to a million lost subscribers? What do you think will cost the most money?

 

MMO gamers are asking for surprisingly small things, considered what we could be asking for. In this case, I'm sure there's talk about an LFG tool, perhaps an expanded friends network, Guild Tools. Not exactly huge things, that will take years and years to make.

[Cmdluke]

You know this game did take at least 3 years to make (from official announcement), and if they didn't spend all their time and money doing voiceovers, this game would've been several times better.

 

please refer to my second post in this thread (posted below)

 

 

good point. I think some people need to remember that this is the game that Bioware wanted to make, not the game that (insert random QQer's name here) wanted Bioware to make for them.

 

[Cmdluke]

Neither will they make much money, if the so-called innovative things are missing. Most of these things that other MMOs got, does not take 3 years to develope. They can pretty much be done in a month, which is a good excuse to wait with the release.

A month compared to a million lost subscribers? What do you think will cost the most money?

 

MMO gamers are asking for surprisingly small things, considered what we could be asking for. In this case, I'm sure there's talk about an LFG tool, perhaps an expanded friends network, Guild Tools. Not exactly huge things, that will take years and years to make.

 

do you have an extensive programming background that gives you an idea of how long these things take to implement?

 

and a month of delayed release date is quite a bit in lost revenue from not having that month of paid subs.

[gnetikjakhammer]

do you have an extensive programming background that gives you an idea of how long these things take to implement?

 

and a month of delayed release date is quite a bit in lost revenue from not having that month of paid subs.

 

Well according to bioware, this game is planned to have a lifetime of 10 years. So what's one little month worth of subs?

[chrisftw]

i think its funny but essentially MMO's should NEVER be released think about it. each month in development means more content somebody else is pushing out.

 

that means they have to create more content to update their as yet unreleased game.

 

so basically as long as new content is being developed on other MMO's they can never release their game because they have to constantly be adding stuff to appease trolls like you.

 

lets break it down

 

X game has been in development for X years. Y game has already been released and has accrued X years worth of content.

 

That means X game must stay in development no minimum than the amoutn of X years Y game has been running.

 

That means that Game X must always and forever be in development to never be behind the curve until money runs dry and the studio shuts down the game never seeing the light of day.

Edited February 1, 2012 by chrisftw

[gnetikjakhammer]

i think its funny but essentially MMO's should NEVER be released think about it. each month in development means more content somebody else is pushing out.

 

that means they have to create more content to update their as yet unreleased game.

 

so basically as long as new content is being developed on other MMO's they can never release their game because they have to constantly be adding stuff to appease trolls like you.

 

lets break it down

 

X game has been in development for X years. Y game has already been released and has accrued X years worth of content.

 

That means X game must stay in development no minimum than the amoutn of X years Y game has been running.

 

That means that Game X must always and forever be in development to never be behind the curve until money runs dry and the studio shuts down the game never seeing the light of day.

 

 

 

To be missing the basic functions of an MMO in the year 2012 is extremely embarassing, ESPECIALLY considering the budget they had.

[Cmdluke]

Well according to bioware, this game is planned to have a lifetime of 10 years. So what's one little month worth of subs?

 

to EA? using the modest number previously mentioned in this thread of 1,000,000 subs, that is $15,000,000.

 

that is quite a large sum of cash to throw away when you can release such a massive game with a few bugs and a few missing 'standard' features.

[AHChrist]

You know this game did take at least 3 years to make (from official announcement), and if they didn't spend all their time and money doing voiceovers, this game would've been several times better.

 

Yeah, I kept reading how Bioware made great games. This is my first bioware game and I really don't see it. This is a pretty basic attempt at an MMO. They got no server forums....COME ON MAN! You can't drop that ball.

[Code_Airwolf]

i think its funny but essentially MMO's should NEVER be released think about it. each month in development means more content somebody else is pushing out.

 

that means they have to create more content to update their as yet unreleased game.

 

so basically as long as new content is being developed on other MMO's they can never release their game because they have to constantly be adding stuff to appease trolls like you.

 

lets break it down

 

X game has been in development for X years. Y game has already been released and has accrued X years worth of content.

 

That means X game must stay in development no minimum than the amoutn of X years Y game has been running.

 

That means that Game X must always and forever be in development to never be behind the curve until money runs dry and the studio shuts down the game never seeing the light of day.

 

 

LOL!

 

 

In car: Development team

Big Ben: Game's Release!

[Bipper]

I agree with this, although I suspect most in the forums will give the usual responses.

 

To me it's like a new company releasing a car based on a typical spec from the 1980's or earlier (manual windows, no aircon, no fuel injection, etc, etc) and promising that at 'some point in the future we'll upgrade your model'. Same could apply to a TV, stereo, satellite sports channel that only has hockey, fencing and bowls, but promising football, rugby and golf are to come 'at some point'.

 

To be competitive and create a loyal fan base you have to start by supplying what your typical fanbase has come to accept as the 'current standard'.

 

I'm just sitting looking at the GTN window. You can't perform a search until you've selected a section and then somethines a subsection too. Suppose I don't *know* where the item I'm looking for is filed under? It's a total joke of a design. Maximum of 50 items for sale at a time, again...why? If it's due to server load then it suggests BW is seriously under specced in their hardware department, or the coding beneath it is badly written.

 

Maximum of 2 (3 with the char viewer) windows open at a time? Errr...this is 2012, right? I swear the undelying operating system allows a few more than that to open (and that *is* the liimitation), so again...bad coding?

 

I don't PvP, nor have I a char at 50 so can't speak for raids, but the forums are full of complaints about both.

 

I just don't understand the thinking that's behind this. Like or loath the top MMOs that are out there, they were where BW expected to pull people from to try their game and hopefully stay. Rift, Wow and others have acceptable interfaces, decent (if basic) tools such as the Auction Houses and *should* have been used as a bare minimum base for SW:ToR, not picked up after launch with a vague promise to possibly do something about them in the future.

 

I'd also say BW seriously need to look at their customer interface with their fanbase. Rift launched just over a year ago, run European and US servers (both accessible to anyone from either country) and manage to patch overnight in both the US and Europe AND manage to do it (for small patches such as we've seen from BW so far) in less than an hour.

 

I like SW:ToR, well, the levelling experience - I'm deliberately taking it slow, but I really believe BW have let themselves down. They could have done so much better. It's not like they didn't have good, established examples out there to base things on.