Most of you just dont get it...

[Bamajawn]

Sounds like an MMO that is coming out later this year...

 

Ha... I have an eye on that MMO. I like the idea and wish SWTOR used it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Bamajawn

[Scoobings]

Make an alt and hit 50, you'll realize quickly how much gear matters. On my Sorc alt, I'd get 3 shot all the time when I was new to the bracket. I got exceedingly lucky on drops, and after several weeks have made it up to 500 expertise. Its #@$# laughable the difference in survivability. People with similar gear present a challange. However there are definitely times where I get attacked by someone that is obviously undergeared-- and often they play EXCEPTIONALLY WELL-- solid interupts, movement and positioning, ability selection; but they have no chance to kill my Sorc healer and I can tank or just walk away from them. If they had better gear, I'd have a real challenge on my hands.

 

Gear is HUGE in this game, and to suggest otherwise is silly.

 

I'm not attempting to suggest that gear doesn't play a role, I'm trying to suggest that there is so little of a time investment to get the gear to completely close that gap that I don't understand why people are complaining.

 

You even said yourself a couple weeks and you hit 500 expertise. Did you get lucky? That was my experience too. I don't think you got lucky at all I think that's just the way it is.

[alanisUDL]

the only gear grind a game should have it to get your gear back after you have had it looted by another player.

 

:love:

 

Oh, how is wish more players played Darkfall Online (as well as wishing it was made by a company that wasn't incompetent).

[Amp_]

I don't think Expertise would cause nearly the hysteria that it does if it wasn't based almost entirely on being rewarded through RNG.

[Roak]

gear progression is mmolite, where epics are guaranteed from instanced pvp

 

skill based is mmorpg where gear matters little (is usually player crafted) and what happens out in the world matters

 

/guru

[Meltheran]

What it ultimately comes down to is a choice of two things, do you want to completely dominate, or do you want quick times between games because more people are playing.

 

The problem right now is a lot of fresh 50's are giving up on endgame pvp because they get rolled repeatedly by the higher gear levels, and the fact that it is just not fun.

 

The only solution I can see that solves the problem of wanting to progress but at the same time keep new players involved, without removing PVP gear and introducing other problems, would be to change the way expertise works. Make it less linear, with lower levels providing more % change and higher levels providing less:

 

(This is just an example and are not meant to represent the real curve!)

100 expertise - 5%

150 expertise - 7.5%

200 Expertise - 9%

250 Expertise - 9.75%

300 expertise - 10.25%

Etc.

 

This way everyone still progresses through the gear, and having better gear still helps with everything, but it is not the deciding factor. Skill and cooperation should be the deciding factor in PVP, not gear.

 

Of course these are just my feelings on the matter.

[Scoobings]

Do you understand that there are people who play 40 hours a week and have 2 unique pieces of gear? That's a big issue with the gear system.

 

Totally. The gear RNG system is total crap.

[Bhorzo]

There is skill based pvp, get all the best gear and test your skills vs the others who have achieved set goal also. If it means you have to struggle and practice vs geared people for a month then pay your due's and get on with it, but dont say you just want it all to be fair and equal from the get go. You then exclude the majority of the playerbase who want to gain strentgh through gear progression.

 

I understand this perspective... it's just not for me I guess. I don't want to "pay my dues" by grinding out 100+ hours, "just to get to the fun parts". I want a game to be fun from the very beginning. This seems to be a difficult concept for MMORPG developers - from MY perspective. But perhaps other people don't have the issues I have with it. It's an MMORPG after all.

[GameNirvana]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

I couldn't have said it better.

[Roak]

:love:

 

Oh, how is wish more players played Darkfall Online (as well as wishing it was made by a company that wasn't incompetent).

 

the bit in brackets is the more important, darkfall was almost amazing, the fact it is pulling subscriptions in should be a pointer to the AAA developers that there is a market for a niche pvp sandbox out there (c'mon ea, money where your balls are and make uo2)

[alanisUDL]

I understand this perspective... it's just not for me I guess. I don't want to "pay my dues" by grinding out 100+ hours, "just to get to the fun parts". I want a game to be fun from the very beginning. This seems to be a difficult concept for MMORPG developers - from MY perspective. But perhaps other people don't have the issues I have with it. It's an MMORPG after all.

 

Well said.

[GRINnBARRETT]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

Not going to bother reading the whole thread as this guy has nailed it. PvE players want gear progression, pvp players just want to play. At least that's my style of playing.

[Treebyrn]

None of the answers to those questions have any bearing since the game has only been out a little over a month.

 

What?? People wanting to play their 1-49's in warzones instead of their 50's after the game has only been out a month should be a major flag that something is not right.

 

So I do think the answer to those question have some bearing.

[lordniah]

The MAJORITY of MMO's playerbase want gear progression. They want to gain str through gear, and then impose their str on the less geared / less skilled. It is an MMO, where YOU become the HERO at the expense of others.........

 

Competitive gaming exists at the end of the gear progression, everything prior to the END of the content is not competitive, its the grind.....

 

All the crying for equal stats ALREADY exists.......its called full battlemaster vs full battlemaster.

 

Actually, I choose to no longer play 50 bracket pvp beause it is not competitive and I don't play games to not have fun. This means that you will not be able to farm me and get better gear. Effectively all your pvp gear is worthless, because it's not really good for raiding and that's basically what you are going to be doing for end game content, because I guarantee you that most players are like me. I know this for a fact because most of the 50s I played with on republic side are now gone. The only ones that remained are the ones that were lucky enough to get geared quickly.

[Kryptorchid]

I understand this perspective... it's just not for me I guess. I don't want to "pay my dues" by grinding out 100+ hours, "just to get to the fun parts". I want a game to be fun from the very beginning. This seems to be a difficult concept for MMORPG developers - from MY perspective. But perhaps other people don't have the issues I have with it. It's an MMORPG after all.

 

This, and hasn't one of BioWare's goals been to make the game enjoyable from level 1 all the way through Endgame? I mean, they have acheived that IMO with the Class Stories and Bolstered PvP, but for some odd reason, they make the game non-enjoyable for fresh level 50s in PvP. Makes no sense to me.

[Bhorzo]

I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive (Skill-based vs Gear-based). Gear plays a factor and I simply don't see anything wrong with that. As I say, and keep saying, it's not a decisive role however. If you are truly the better player you can overcome a 10%, or even 20% swing of things being in their favor.

 

That's great... when you win. It's great to win over someone who has a 20% gear advantage.

 

BUT... what about when you lose? Did you lose because of gear or skill? You'll NEVER know. And that's a terrible feeling.

 

 

Will they have the advantage and will it be really difficult? You bet, but the more likely scenario is if they have better gear it's likely they've been playing longer and have a better understanding of game mechanics than you.

 

Let's be realistic here. If I've played an MMORPG like WOW for 6 years, and PVPed a lot, I can pick up SWTOR and do very well, very easily. Compare this to someone who's never played an MMORPG before... or perhaps has never played a PC video game at all.

 

When I was level 16 I was getting rolled by level 50s in PVP gear who keyboard turned and backpeddled. It was depressing.

 

Levelling to max level and getting some gear doesn't make you skilled.

[Kolbenito]

Part of MMOs is knowing your class and how to gear and spec properly. That alone makes it a different world from other game genres. Sorry, but no current FPS that anyone cares about is a zero progression game besides Halo Reach. Your skill cap in those games is also just a lot lower because there are only so many things to be good at.

 

If you don't like gear being a factor in pvp, MMOs are a terrible genre. In any competitive PVP that is worth a damn the gear gap will be non-existant or very small. The same will be true in swtor when you have 8 full Battlemaster geared players in both sides in rated games.

 

That is how any skilled pvp in this genre works. End game is not reaching level cap in any MMO that is worth playing, which is what you are asking for.

[Scoobings]

That's great... when you win. It's great to win over someone who has a 20% gear advantage.

 

BUT... what about when you lose? Did you lose because of gear or skill? You'll NEVER know. And that's a terrible feeling.

 

 

 

 

Let's be realistic here. If I've played an MMORPG like WOW for 6 years, and PVPed a lot, I can pick up SWTOR and do very well, very easily. Compare this to someone who's never played an MMORPG before... or perhaps has never played a PC video game at all.

 

When I was level 16 I was getting rolled by level 50s in PVP gear who keyboard turned and backpeddled. It was depressing.

 

Levelling to max level and getting some gear doesn't make you skilled.

 

That's true, I won't know until I get some gear. But that's so easy to do that I really don't see the problem.

 

They backeted the lower levels out (which I think is great) now what they need to do is slip valor rank into the match making code and increase the queue pools (X server PVP) and vuala, problems solved.

 

Fresh 50s pvp against other fresh 50s and progress into the higher valor ranks and get better gear to compete.

 

The problem is with implimentation in this iteration of the game, and not the fact that gear progression exists. Some of us like having goals to shoot for beyond PVPing just for the sake of PVP.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a PVPer at heart but the PVP needs some serious work before it can just rely on merits alone.

 

I want my character to get stronger. That's part of the fun for me. Should I have to fight you when I'm stronger? No probably not, but until BW fixes that I think THAT is the real problem, and no simply the fact that I get to enjoy my progression.

 

If it really makes you happier to not play in the level 50 bracket then go crazy. I, on the other hand, am having a blast and I'm not a battlemaster.

[lordniah]

Sounds like that is a problem between the player and their Therapist and MMO companies should not be getting involved in trying to make them feel better about their RL. If someone can't handle dying in a meaningless video game, I've got no respect for their existence.

 

Guild Wars said MMORPG on the box and it didn't have a gear grind in pvp. Seems like it was a really popular game among the pvp crowd, especially in Asia.

[alanisUDL]

Part of MMOs is knowing your class and how to gear and spec properly. That alone makes it a different world from other game genres. Sorry, but no current FPS that anyone cares about is a zero progression game besides Halo Reach. Your skill cap in those games is also just a lot lower because there are only so many things to be good at.

 

In good MMOs, it is knowing your class and how to PLAY it correctly.

 

If you don't like gear being a factor in pvp, MMOs are a terrible genre. In any competitive PVP that is worth a damn the gear gap will be non-existant or very small. The same will be true in swtor when you have 8 full Battlemaster geared players in both sides in rated games.

 

This game likely won't be around long enough for 16 geared battlemasters; or at least not that often. The grind will cause too many people to lose interest and move onto other games. If at the end you just have people in the same gear fighting each other, why bother with the stupid gear progression in the first place? Seems like a huge waste of time, and you just lost a large % of your playerbase in the process.

 

That is how any skilled pvp in this genre works. End game is not reaching level cap in any MMO that is worth playing, which is what you are asking for.

 

Most people would prefer to have fun for the entirety of playing a game. There is too much competition in this market for people to put up with the "waiting to have fun" that post-WoW games employ.

[Kolbenito]

So pretend that gear was a non-factor in PVP. Every new level 50 is the same as all other level 50s in PVP.

 

How could you make that work with raiding? If you do nothing raiders a year from now will crush you like bugs with their massive gear advantage and you are stuck back in square 1.

 

You now need to do PVE for your PVP gear instead of PVP to be competitive.

 

Or Bioware has to implement some cheese to protect you from raiders whenever you come across them in any PVP scenario (world pvp, illum, warzones) so you don't get your face stomped. A really great way to piss off the raiders would be to make their gear so it has some artificial disadvantage in PVP or just has no progression/scaling in the first place.

 

One of the ways this game does not compare to FPS and RTS games is that you don't have players progressing and competing in PVE and PVP at the same time. Anything you do in the campaign in CoD is separate from what you do online and vice versa. MMOs that have both don't work this way nor should they.

 

MMOs have been through all this, nothing new is being argued in this thread. Bioware modeled what works in other games they just did the bag system very poorly. This may have been intentional so that every 50 didn't have Battlemaster gear the first month the game was out but could have been done better.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Celebrus]

In good MMOs, it is knowing your class and how to PLAY it correctly.

 

 

 

This game likely won't be around long enough for 16 geared battlemasters; or at least not that often. The grind will cause too many people to lose interest and move onto other games. If at the end you just have people in the same gear fighting each other, why bother with the stupid gear progression in the first place? Seems like a huge waste of time, and you just lost a large % of your playerbase in the process.

 

 

 

Most people would prefer to have fun for the entirety of playing a game. There is too much competition in this market for people to put up with the "waiting to have fun" that post-WoW games employ.

 

Define good.

 

You bother with gear progression because it provides a reward to players that are dedicated to the system and devote time to it. Because it keeps people playing. Because no matter how much you "like" to PvP, repeating something day after day with no hope of it changing or of it granting you something becomes repetitive and dull. At least this way, when it becomes repetitive and dull, which is inevitable whether you love it or not, you still have something else to play for.

 

Most people ARE having fun for the entirety of the game, because most people are actually playing it, enjoying and thriving in the system, while you sit here "progressing" your ability to annoy people and not provide anything but your personal feelings on the matter. You are not solving the issue by making wild, baseless claims, and trying to speak for everyone when you really are part of a vocal minority.

 

There aren't many here to argue against you, because those that would are already in the game enjoying the "grind".

 

And also, this:

So pretend that gear was a non-factor in PVP. Every new level 50 is the same as all other level 50s in PVP.

 

How could you make that work with raiding? If you do nothing raiders a year from now will crush you like bugs with their massive gear advantage and you are stuck back in square 1.

 

You now need to do PVE for your PVP gear instead of PVP for it.

 

Take away PvP gear, and now raiders dominate PvPers with their raiding gear, and you've done nothing but completely wreck the PvP system.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Celebrus

[fungihoujo]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

Except, half the threads here are 'can't get my gear bags so I'm rage quitting!' or, 'I got all my gear, nothing to do, quitting'.

 

People may SAY they don't like gear systems- but most people will leave without a carrot.

 

Blame it on people being dumb- pvp should be for the sake of pvping. Ah well, I enjoy the game anyway, and it's not too hard to get gear.

[Bhorzo]

That's true, I won't know until I get some gear. But that's so easy to do that I really don't see the problem.

 

They backeted the lower levels out (which I think is great) now what they need to do is slip valor rank into the match making code and increase the queue pools (X server PVP) and vuala, problems solved.

 

Fresh 50s pvp against other fresh 50s and progress into the higher valor ranks and get better gear to compete.

 

The problem is with implimentation in this iteration of the game, and not the fact that gear progression exists. Some of us like having goals to shoot for beyond PVPing just for the sake of PVP.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a PVPer at heart but the PVP needs some serious work before it can just rely on merits alone.

 

I want my character to get stronger. That's part of the fun for me. Should I have to fight you when I'm stronger? No probably not, but until BW fixes that I think THAT is the real problem, and no simply the fact that I get to enjoy my progression.

 

If it really makes you happier to not play in the level 50 bracket then go crazy. I, on the other hand, am having a blast and I'm not a battlemaster.

 

I think getting gear is "easy" when most people are at your level. But if I rolled an alt tomorrow for PVP... getting to 50 and getting geared would be a little more... let's call it "time consuming".

 

X-server PVP would be great, cause you're right, you could then bracket based on skill or experience (eg valor rank).

 

I think you CAN have fun PVP and have gear progression too - as long as it's reasonable, and people with similar skills/gear play together. I have FUN in SWTOR PVP when I'm not being rolled by geared 50s. A little gear difference is okay. (But I don't think you can have ANY gear difference at all when you're talking about competitive, skill-based PVP... but I guess that's something we aren't really expecting from SWTOR at this point.)

 

The lack of X-server match-making is really puzzling to me.

[Malice_Nihilim]

Please prove me wrong then. What titles came out that were:

 

A) MMO

B) Were successful

C) Did not have gear based progression, or eventually move over to a gear-based progression when the game started to fail?

 

Asheron's Call, DAoC off the top of my head. Generally everything but EQ pre-WoW.