What does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear?

[Tyranoc]

I think the crying excuse makers who are the self proclaimed PvP master will be happy with the ranked PvP coming out. The good players will be placed against other skilled players. Whilst these little girls who are saying, "Im sooooooo skilled, but its too hard to get gear or fight it" will be fighting other little skilless noobs.

 

It will be like their beloved 10-49 bracket, but full of skilless PvP'ers with no gear and no idea.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Parali
rude call out

[CrunchyGremlin]

Sad.

But who cares.

This pvp is flawed from the ground up.

one side of the game is an RPG the other side is CS where you never lose your stuff.

 

RPGPvP needs an economy, content and a connection to the overall game.

 

gear grind to nowhere is a simple idea for simple people. Enjoy and move on.

 

Too bad because CS with light sabers is fun. Just needs more maps.

[Waagabond]

Guildwars 2.

 

Thats the only word that needs to be said.

 

You press one button, enter pvp, everyone have same gear, its just about the skill.

 

But, I must say I personally enjoy that you are able to earn new armors.

I think that expertise is the problem.

 

And its Expertise in PVP that have destroyed class balance.

 

Scoundrel and operatives was nerfed cause they was running around in high end pvp gear and killing lower level enemies, in the 1-50 bracket, and doing sick damage, or even in the 50 bracket vs none expertise targets.

 

Its a tad crazy that they are nerfing classes based on expertise without actually understanding that its expertise thats the problem, not the class.

 

BUT:

 

Then comes the other problem. If you remove expertise, then raid gear will be the best gear available. So, every pvper worth his salt wil be forced to raid near full time to get the gear he wants.

 

So either make the PVP gear better with the current stats but remove expertise, or..make us pvper get rakata gear from wz commendations in bags just as we get pvp gear.

 

its the only way.

 

Last but not least:

 

When my vanguard( im now playing scoundrel) entered warzones as a fresh 50, in mainly epic lvl 49 gear, I was beating down on champion geared and even BM geared people, with alot of effort, but with success.

 

Expertise gives around 10% damage reduction or 10% more damage, thats actually about it. Its not like its a dimension. The difference is the gear stats, and that I like, there should be a carrot after all the grind.

 

And for those that wants equal pvp there are games like guildwars, and soon guildwars 2 will come out, I suggest you join them.

I know I will play GW2 for sure but might stay in tor as well if it remains any good.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Waagabond

[mordredz]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

 

lol never happens, if there was no gear honestly there would be QQ'ing about the pve guilds rolling everyone blah blah, no ones ever happy, stop crying plz and think before you type its not a complicated thing to do i swear!

[Harryshort]

The 10-49 bracket is the most balanced pvp experiance i have had in swtor, and is the reason i left my level 55 valor charracter to start up a new one.

 

Except that you sometimes end up with some very inexperianced players on your team, it is loads of fun, and the bolster effect works very well.

 

I now also have a level 33 charracter that has only been leveling through warzones. And it suits my casual playstyle perfectly.

 

Edit: But i also have to state that i am also very driven by reward. And in the lower bracket im rewarded with XP. So i probalby wouldnt play much at 50 if i didnt get some kind of reward. As it is now the gear upgrades is the reward at level 50.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Harryshort

[Kaarsa]

For all those claiming that 1-49 pvp is balanced - you have to be kidding me.

 

I read almost all this topic, and then hit 49 on my darkness assasin. I bought him artifact lev 49 for all slots and pvped for whole level. I was dying only in 1v3 situations or when I entered 1v2 without my CDs or half hp. In 1v3 I could still kill 1 oponent and run away (if CD were up). Basicaly noone could stand a 1v1 against me (I was not checking levels of my opponents, so I just assume that they were not other 49 chars with all purples).

 

I am definately not a great pvper, it was just enormous gear advantage that let me be so dominant - when I could reliably crit for 2,5k shock, then 4x1,2 force lighting and another 2k shock soon (not even mentioning wither, trash and discharge in the mean time), and highest incoming damage I saw was around 1,5k, how could anyone beat me?

 

With above gear and some centurion items I had over 14k hp at lev 50, a bit above 4% expertise and I was certainly a greater threat and distraction for champion/BM geared players than those lev 10-30 were to me at lev 49. Would I win 1v1 against champ/BM? Probably not, especially since as I said, I am not a great pvp player. Would 2 of me take down said opponent - of course, when I was stupid enough to went into 1v1 againt champ/BM they usually killed me with around 20-30% hp.

 

1-49 is extremally unbalanced. It is fun, that is true, but 50 bracked is more balanced without a doubt. You just have to spend those few credits and a bit of time to achieve some minimal level of gear to not be a complete liability to your group, dont try to 1v1 better geared chars only because you were owning everyone when you were 49 and they were 20 and everything will be ok:)

[Torleen]

The 10-49 bracket is the most balanced pvp experiance i have had in swtor, and is the reason i left my level 55 valor charracter to start up a new one.

 

Except that you sometimes end up with some very inexperianced players on your team, it is loads of fun, and the bolster effect works very well.

 

I now also have a level 33 charracter that has only been leveling through warzones. And it suits my casual playstyle perfectly.

 

Edit: But i also have to state that i am also very driven by reward. And in the lower bracket im rewarded with XP. So i probalby wouldnt play much at 50 if i didnt get some kind of reward. As it is now the gear upgrades is the reward at level 50.

 

In a GAME some of the reward should be enjoyable game play. Right now grinding for gear is just not enjoyable. At all.

[Furyofwar]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

 

Or they are looking to kill lvl 10s. 1-49 bracket is a joke and to easy.

[Gryphandor]

While I have not read this entire thread. I will say that I have found it to be a bit more enjoyable to move on to another toon for PVP once lev 50 is hit. But that is due to the bag system not working right and all the exploits and hacks that make lev 50 PVP a nightmare.

 

While there is hacking and cheating in the 1-49 bracket on my realm it isn't too bad and you also have to wonder why many people bother to cheat at that level even though I have reported more people then I care to mention for hacking or cheating during Warzones.

 

Still the biggest thing right now to me is how bored I am of the same 3 Warzones over and over. I am having a hard time understanding why this game was released with only 3. That bored feeling is a major reason I leave a Warzone that I know for certain will end in a loss. The fun of just staying and doing what I can is long gone. Also has no benefit!

[CrunchyGremlin]

While I have not read this entire thread. I will say that I have found it to be a bit more enjoyable to move on to another toon for PVP once lev 50 is hit. But that is due to the bag system not working right and all the exploits and hacks that make lev 50 PVP a nightmare.

 

While there is hacking and cheating in the 1-49 bracket on my realm it isn't too bad and you also have to wonder why many people bother to cheat at that level even though I have reported more people then I care to mention for hacking or cheating during Warzones.

 

Still the biggest thing right now to me is how bored I am of the same 3 Warzones over and over. I am having a hard time understanding why this game was released with only 3. That bored feeling is a major reason I leave a Warzone that I know for certain will end in a loss. The fun of just staying and doing what I can is long gone. Also has no benefit!

 

Content content content.

Gear grind would be almost insignificant and maybe even enjoyable if the PvP content was greater than then the grind.

[RolyartNala]

Having gear matter in pvp is honestly the dumbest thing about MMO pvp.

 

When you can win a fight before a shot is launched just because you outgear somone does not make a good game.

 

The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick?

This.

 

Personally, I think it's time to think sideways regarding PVP rewards. Allow PVP to be an alternate avenue to acquire endgame gear, even separate endgame gear, but differentiate it by look or set bonus rather than by Expertise. Furthermore, PVP should provide more vanity rewards to keep people playing, such as titles for specific achievements (like winning Alderaan with a 3-cap ten times) or vanity gear that can ONLY be acquired through PVP (Imperial Royal Guard outfit).

 

Edited February 16, 2012 by RolyartNala

[_Marou_]

People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets.

 

Lets really think about what that means.

 

It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again.

 

It means that PVP is MORE exciting when your adrenaline is pumping because you are in a pitched battle with someone who does the same damage and takes the same damage you do and it really comes down to quick thinking, reflexes and strategy that you EARNED through practice rather then because you have a statistical advantage over your opponent. Where the timing of every shot counts. And obviously that is going to be more exciting then losing simply because your opponent hits far harder and takes far less damage.

 

Gear based "PVP" is not a test of a player vs a player unless people really think that because someone was able to do more repetitive tasks over and over again because they don't have kids, or a job or a life (Or simply are willing to sacrifice those things they should be spending more time on) is somehow something that people can be tested for and be lauded as if they "accomplished" something.

 

The grind olympics? Is that something you want to be remembered for? You were better at wasting more time in your life then someone else so you "win"?

 

If we are going to have brackets, I think we should have a bracket where Expertise is shut off. ESPECIALLY if you are thinking E-sport. And ESPECIALLY if you are going to have a PVP rating system.

 

I have a feeling that bracket would be far more populated.

 

EDIT TO CLEAR UP A MISCONCEPTION: I do not feel that gear should no longer be acquirable through PVP. I feel that gear should be attainable through PVP, and be on par with gear in PVE. And that the advantage gear affords be curbed in PVP across the board. I am not asking for PVE to cause someone to win PVP. Resilience was the wrong answer. Expertise is no better.

 

This, give me a 50 WZ that has normalized stats so that gear is not part of the equation at all. I don't even care if it's called "practice mode" and it gives no commendations. I don't play for commendations at all. Gear progression is utterly boring. I don't like raiding, why would I want the most yuck aspect of raiding screwing up my PvP time.

[L-RANDLE]

In a GAME some of the reward should be enjoyable game play. Right now grinding for gear is just not enjoyable. At all.

 

What is stopping you from Re-Rolling? If you enjoy that bracket so much, then play in it.

 

 

You bought a RPG and you hate gear/progression? Talk about irony. Your hypocrasy knows no bound....

[L-RANDLE]

This, give me a 50 WZ that has normalized stats so that gear is not part of the equation at all. I don't even care if it's called "practice mode" and it gives no commendations. I don't play for commendations at all. Gear progression is utterly boring. I don't like raiding, why would I want the most yuck aspect of raiding screwing up my PvP time.

 

This is even worse... Another who has fell to a Jedi mind trick that a RPG is not a grindfest (and bought the game anyway). This is the one and ONLY instance where you have to grind it out, whereas most other RPGs were much more severe. Maybe I like to grind (and not bored) in order to have my advantage, so I can compete with leet PvPers (LOL)..... Get over it.

 

 

The thread is starting to get into the "fun-bad" territory...

Edited February 16, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[_Marou_]

This is even worse... Another who has fell to a Jedi mind trick that a RPG is not a grindfest (and bought the game anyway). This is the one and ONLY instance where you have to grind it out, whereas most other RPGs were much more severe. Maybe I like to grind (and not bored) in order to have my advantage, so I can compete with leet PvPers (LOL)..... Get over it.

 

 

The thread is starting to get into the "fun-bad" territory...

 

heh, nobody said you'd haveto play that way. You could grind out and compete in "rewarding" PvP. I just don't give a flip. 10-49 was fun the whole way through. 50 is just boring and lame. It's not fun to faceroll people because you outgear them, nor is it fun to be the recipient of said facerolling.

 

At least, that sort of thing is not fun if you PvP for the fun of competing with and killing other players.

 

Guild Wars 2 gets it, it's why gear/level is irrelevant in their "scenario based" PvP. I'd like that option in SWTOR. Fun PvP is it's own reward, and I don't need anything else. If I wanted "phat loots" or got any satisfaction from that whatsoever I'd be doing PvE.

[L-RANDLE]

heh, nobody said you'd haveto play that way. You could grind out and compete in "rewarding" PvP. I just don't give a flip. 10-49 was fun the whole way through. 50 is just boring and lame. It's not fun to faceroll people because you outgear them, nor is it fun to be the recipient of said facerolling.

 

At least, that sort of thing is not fun if you PvP for the fun of competing with and killing other players.

 

Guild Wars 2 gets it, it's why gear/level is irrelevant in their "scenario based" PvP. I'd like that option in SWTOR. Fun PvP is it's own reward, and I don't need anything else. If I wanted "phat loots" or got any satisfaction from that whatsoever I'd be doing PvE.

 

LOL. ANOTHER GW2 reference! I swear why don't ya'll just play that....

 

So......... you either faceroll everyone or get facerolled by everyone? So what happens when two equally geared/skilled players meet? Oh and BTW, THAT NEVER HAPPENS [/sarcasm].

 

You missed the sarcasm of the previous post. So I'll just let you know that my previous posts say.."I don't like to grind". But I am also not being such a baby about and run to cry on forums saying "OH GRINDING IS SO BORING, NOT FUN, PROGRESSION NEEDS TO GO, I SHOULD BE ON THE SAME LEVEL BY PUTTING IN X HOURS (EVEN THOUGH HE PUT IN 20X HOURS)...BLAH, BLAH".

 

 

BW MADE IT EASY FOR YOU!!!: REROLL (even with the same class if you want to....)

 

I like PvP and eventually would like to try raiding, so I will grind (and will not whine about it).

 

 

You like PvP, you will not grind because it is not fun (reroll or stf and/or quit).

Edited February 16, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[_Marou_]

LOL. ANOTHER GW2 reference! I swear why don't ya'll just play that....

 

So......... you either faceroll everyone or get facerolled by everyone? So what happens when two equally geared/skilled players meet? Oh and BTW, THAT NEVER HAPPENS [/sarcasm].

 

You missed the sarcasm of the previous post. So I'll just let you know that my previous posts say.."I don't like to grind". But I am also not being such a baby about and run to cry on forums saying "OH GRINDING IS SO BORING, NOT FUN, PROGRESSION NEEDS TO GO, I SHOULD BE ON THE SAME LEVEL BY PUTTING IN X HOURS (EVEN THOUGH HE PUT IN 20X HOURS)...BLAH, BLAH".

 

 

BW MADE IT EASY FOR YOU!!!: REROLL (even with the same class if you want to....)

 

I like PvP and eventually would like to try raiding, so I will grind (and will not whine about it).

 

 

You like PvP, you will not grind because it is not fun (reroll or stf and/or quit).

 

People post comments like mine because hitting level 50 and going to PvP is like having a monkey that acted like your friend suddenly throw poo in your face. Bioware's design for PvP is inconsistent between the leveling up experience, and the level cap experience.

 

Possible Solutions:

 

1) Remove stat/gear normalization from the 10-49 scenario based PvP so people know what they are getting into up-front. This could have saved me a considerable amount of time as I'd have immediately unsubbed.

 

2) Make the level cap scenario based PvP normalize stats/gear the same way as the 10-49.

 

3) Offer an optional flag to play stat/gear normalized WZ's at 50 for no reward. People like me could play there and get no rewards (and not care that we got no rewards). You could keep doin what your doing and have all the fun that provides you.

 

----------------------------------------

 

I don't think Bioware has to choose. There is no reason they can't give me what I want while still letting progression based players do the "meaningful" stuff. I'm fine with getting NOTHING for doing normalized WZ's at 50. I enjoy them for what they are, not what they give me.

Edited February 16, 2012 by _Marou_

[L-RANDLE]

People post comments like mine because hitting level 50 and going to PvP is like having a monkey that acted like your friend suddenly throw poo in your face. Bioware's design for PvP is inconsistent between the leveling up experience, and the level cap experience.

 

Possible Solutions:

 

1) Remove stat/gear normalization from the 10-49 scenario based PvP so people know what they are getting into up-front. This could have saved me a considerable amount of time as I'd have immediately unsubbed.

 

2) Make the level cap scenario based PvP normalize stats/gear the same way as the 10-49.

 

3) Offer an optional flag to play stat/gear normalized WZ's at 50 for no reward. People like me could play there and get no rewards (and not care that we got no rewards). You could keep doin what your doing and have all the fun that provides you.

 

 

What are you talking about? Did you buy this game solely to PvP? Seriously!!!? You get XP when you play 10-49, just like in open world. What is so inconsistant about that? Did the though ever occur to you that you might be undergeared when you hit 50? Did you even quest? Sorry, but there is no excuse for being undergeared in this game except for lazyiness (or not having fun, or only PvPing ,whatever you want to call it). YOU BOUGHT A RPG BECAUSE OF ITS PVP? LOL, LIKE I SAID "JEDI MIND TRICK" THIS IS NOT STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT. If you get owned by an elite AI(+HP, +GEAR, whatever) while questing, the same or worst should happen in PvP.

 

 

The problem is your and others (TORLEEN) stance: "Even things out"

 

Translation 1: "I want to keep my lvl'd abilities. I still have an edge over some in my bracket by means of available abilities, lower CDs, etc..... I can still faceroll; without grinding......"

 

Translation 2: "New level 50 sucks, my advantage is gone and I am being facerolled. I don't want to go grind, its boring..........(light bulb flashes)............. Screw BM's. They should be nerfed. They only beat me because of their gear."

 

 

Even though it pains me, I have to be the anti-common sense repellant.

[gryhmr]

I have a friend who dinged 50 yesterday. He is already in 2 pieces of Champion and two pieces of Centurion. Why did this stupid thread get ressed? Are people still not understanding how easy expertise is to get?

[_Marou_]

What are you talking about? Did you buy this game solely to PvP? Seriously!!!? You get XP when you play 10-49, just like in open world. What is so inconsistant about that? Did the though ever occur to you that you might be undergeared when you hit 50? Did you even quest? Sorry, but there is no excuse for being undergeared in this game except for lazyiness (or not having fun, or only PvPing ,whatever you want to call it). YOU BOUGHT A RPG BECAUSE OF ITS PVP? LOL, LIKE I SAID "JEDI MIND TRICK" THIS IS NOT STAR WARS BATTLEFRONT. If you get owned by an elite AI(+HP, +GEAR, whatever) while questing, the same or worst should happen in PvP.

 

 

The problem is your and others (TORLEEN) stance: "Even things out"

 

Translation 1: "I want to keep my lvl'd abilities. I still have an edge over some in my bracket by means of available abilities, lower CDs, etc..... I can still faceroll; without grinding......"

 

Translation 2: "New level 50 sucks, my advantage is gone and I am being facerolled. I don't want to go grind, its boring..........(light bulb flashes)............. Screw BM's. They should be nerfed. They only beat me because of their gear."

 

 

Even though it pains me, I have to be the anti-common sense repellant.

 

Just different types of players. One wants to compete in grinding. The other wants to compete strategically and with reflexes/reaction time. I don't think Bioware has to give up either type.

 

Alot of us have been around the block MMO wise. I had my full set of arena gear in WoW and facerolled everyone in BG/WZ's. The disparity here is (as bad) or worse than WoW at level cap. I don't have the energy or inclination to "do my time" getting facerolled so I can faceroll everyone else while they "do their time". This isn't a prison, it's supposed to be entertainment.

[Belbullab]

I have a friend who dinged 50 yesterday. He is already in 2 pieces of Champion and two pieces of Centurion. Why did this stupid thread get ressed? Are people still not understanding how easy expertise is to get?

 

i'm with you. pvp gear is great. i earn it by pvping a lot and have an advantage over someone who doesn't. in addition, i'm way more skilled at pvp because of all of the practice. a level 50 raider should not stand a chance against a level 50 pvper in pvp.

[YanksfanJP]

The thing that cracks me up about the system is that the people who want skill to matter the most are the same ones powergrinding to gear themselves out as quickly as possible so that skill matters as little as possible.

 

Not saying they're wrong to do so, just that the system is hilarious like that.

[SageH]

Remove the PVP gear and you will be complaining about getting rolled by everyone who raids in a few months. Swtor has only been out for 5'ish weeks. A couple of content patches down the road and you would fall over dead when a raider even looks at you.

 

Absolutely not. The bolster system proves that if they wanted to, they could make gear irrelevant. The bolster system could simply override everyone's stats and give them equal numbers across the board, thereby making pvp a game of skill vs a game of gearing. In fact, this is the road I hope BW goes down one day. It would make rated WZ's much more interesting and challenging knowing that every opponent you went up against was equal to you in numbers, thereby allowing skill to truly take its place in pvp where it belongs, on top.

[Carbonated]

the 10-49 bracket on my server has a rep premade of 5 troopers and 3 sages. Guess what the 50 bracket told me.

[CrunchyGremlin]

What is stopping you from Re-Rolling? If you enjoy that bracket so much, then play in it.

 

 

You bought a RPG and you hate gear/progression? Talk about irony. Your hypocrasy knows no bound....

 

this is incorrect.

 

gear grind can be a component of an RPG but a gear grind by itself is not an RPG.

See "world of tanks" for gear grind and character progression with no RPG.

 

I bought and continue to pay for an RPG i expect an RPG.

 

But what i got is an RPG that has PvP with RPG elements.

This makes the PvP structurally the same as WOT which is free to play.

 

As long as the focus of PvP is gear it will not be good enough.

That doesnt mean the gear grind has to go.

It means the PvP is missing a major element that is greater than the gear grind.