Darth_Philar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think the core of the problem here is that we have allowed greedy executives to re-define what MMO PVP is into something they hope will keep us playing their game longer. They are trying to apply the PVE grinding formula to PVP as far as what will keep people coming back. Gear progression is nonsense. Give us some RVR objectives that impact the game world we play in. THAT will keep us coming back. Or if you really must cater to the "donkeys" who think that the carrot on the stick they got is a magical item that makes them valid as human beings then give us a bracket where Expertise does not work. Like I said before, any kind of statistical advantage makes PvP impossible to balance and makes it based on gear instead of skill. Gear is worn by the character, not the player meaning it isn't PvP, but Character versus Character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxablemango Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So... did any of you ever play Dark Age of Camelot?? A MMO that was created before the WoW Generation of MMOs ruined the genre? Gear didn't matter in PvP (until Trials of Atlantis but that came after WoW ) because it was not awarded in that manner and everyone had stat caps that were pretty simple to achieve. You wanted Gear? You did the mindlessly easy PvE or crafted. Oh my lord, a game where crafted gear is equal to PvE gear. Gear wasn't better or worse, it was simply unique because of where it came from. It had special visual models, effects etc. You PvPed for the overall RvR campaign and for Realm Ranks which granted spec points for special Abilities, stats etc. There was progression, it just didn't come in the form of gear, and it provided a truly unique build to your character. Clearly, not all MMOs have to be based on a redundant Loot treadmill. DAoC was the 800lb Gorilla in its day before MMOs became... trendy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JingleHell Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Love to know where people are getting this 20% figure from for Expertise. Given the DR, I'm pretty sure that would take about tier 7 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KronikInsomniak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 There is no 1-49 bracket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The problem is, how do you get people to pvp if gear doesn't matter and they don't have that carrot on a stick? I remember the days when MMO PvP was a means to kill other players. PvPing for gear is stupid. The moment that MMO PvP went wrong, was the moment they started to treat PvP like PvE. PvP has NEVER been about running instances over and over again for gear. And that's all it's about now. And the moment MMOs in general went wrong, is the moment that they not only took out ALL forms of risk, but also began rewarding the loser, too. Unfathomable. Ever heard of kids' baseball leagues where they don't keep score because they don't want kids to feel the pain of losing? Welcome to MMOs. Where everyone is *********** coddled. Enjoy your grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I remember the days when MMO PvP was a means to kill other players. PvPing for gear is stupid. The moment that MMO PvP went wrong, was the moment they started to treat PvP like PvE. PvP has NEVER been about running instances over and over again for gear. And that's all it's about now. And the moment MMOs in general went wrong, is the moment that they not only took out ALL forms of risk, but also began rewarding the loser, too. Unfathomable. Ever heard of kids' baseball leagues where they don't keep score because they don't want kids to feel the pain of losing? Welcome to MMOs. Where everyone is *********** coddled. Enjoy your grind. Well said Sevvy, and I didn't recognize you for a min with the new avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fashybinder Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Lets really think about what that means. It means that people would rather do the PVE grind AGAIN then put up with being the equivalent of being grey mobs in WZs who's purpose seems to be to entertain no one but the people who are lucky enough to have more free time or unlucky enough to simply have no life who get to kill you over and over again. No, its because they want to pwn noobs. When you get to 50, do your two dailies then leave and within a week you will have (within 5%) of the expertise of a guy who spends 16 hours a day doing warzones. Seriously, 2 dailies and the casual = as geared as the hardcore. Evenmoreso at battlemaster when the hardcore and the casual 1-2h a day player can be equally geared. TLDR: Rerolls are to pwn noobs, gear isnt the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felene Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) That pure pvper won't get any good gear for pvp until lv50? Carebear logic of fair gear is everyone have to pve for gear, regardless if you are pure pve or pure pvp. Edited February 1, 2012 by Felene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grilltusk Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) What makes the 1-49 bracket so "fair" is that 30-49 have a clear advantage over 10-29 for many classes. Don't act like everyone is on equal footing with no differences at all, that isn't even remotely true. As much as I agree with the OP and with you partially, the difference between 10-29 and 30-49 is much smaller compared to newly dinged 50s vs fully geared 50s. Now if Bioware would allow players to collect more than one champ bag prior to 50 things might change a little bit, at least that way the newly dinged people can have some point to start from, or give crafters the ability to make a few bits and pieces with some expertise at 50. Preferably a combination of both. Edited February 1, 2012 by Grilltusk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aowar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I miss the player crafter based economy of SWG. Where someone could actually be KNOWN for being a good crafter. And have that be something of note. Wait but that would give you an unfair advantage in the market and therefore you cannot possibly favor such a thing. After all you want everyone to be on equal footing. Bring back communism!!! It will work this time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbican Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What Does the 1-49 bracket teach us about PVP gear? Nothing. Your precious bracket will soon be filled with level 49 twinks who get moddable gear... put level 49 artifacts mods (126 rating) in their gear (which can all be bought from GTN or farmed) leaving the game about 30 seconds before it ends (after dominating it of course)... no exp, valor, credits, etc perma 49 twink. Gear and level still matter significantly in this bracket. I agree with your point that PVP shouldn't be gear based and rather skill based... but most players sub up because they are chasing that carrot on the stick, when they get that said carrot they unsub, until new carrots are added. I truly do hope that for rated warzones they give you gear / consumables etc... purely balanced skill based competition... that just give vanity rewards such as speeders, customizable armor sets (moddable skins), and titles. Hopefully ranking will be enough of a reward to satiate many of e-peen to keep subs healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolbenito Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 So... did any of you ever play Dark Age of Camelot?? A MMO that was created before the WoW Generation of MMOs ruined the genre? Gear didn't matter in PvP (until Trials of Atlantis but that came after WoW ) because it was not awarded in that manner and everyone had stat caps that were pretty simple to achieve. You wanted Gear? You did the mindlessly easy PvE or crafted. Oh my lord, a game where crafted gear is equal to PvE gear. Gear wasn't better or worse, it was simply unique because of where it came from. It had special visual models, effects etc. You PvPed for the overall RvR campaign and for Realm Ranks which granted spec points for special Abilities, stats etc. There was progression, it just didn't come in the form of gear, and it provided a truly unique build to your character. Clearly, not all MMOs have to be based on a redundant Loot treadmill. DAoC was the 800lb Gorilla in its day before MMOs became... trendy.. If this game had trivial PVE and the designers wanted it to follow DAoC this could work and would probably be fun. However, SWTOR has non-trivial PVE with very good gear from raiding. You simply have to understand that gear matters in games that have both. The only way around it is some mess where you bolster everyone 24/7 to make up in the potentially huge disparity in someone's gear. If someone could do whatever in any gear their lazy *** could be bothered to get that would be horrible design and people would just leave the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trews Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Competition is about WINNING. Not about being fair. People do what it takes to win. They grind for hours and hours on end to get the gear they need to WIN. What you are saying is the equivalent to rigging the olympics to give normal people a chance to beat trained and gifted athletes. Those guys "no lifed" it to get where they are. They had to put WORK in to be competitive. You might say "well this is just a game durr" but so is basketball and football, and those games you watch are played by people who bust their asses to be where they are. This thread just epitomizes american laziness and a feeling of entitlement. Um...actually you are completely wrong. It's like lining 10 runners up for the 100 meter dash and giving 2 of them steroids simply because they have ran more races than the other 8 runners. Sounds fair right? Winning the race should be the goal, as opposed to running enough races to earn steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JingleHell Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 As much as I agree with the OP and with you partially, the difference between 10-29 and 30-49 is much smaller compared to newly dinged 50s vs fully geared 50s. Now if Bioware would allow players to collect more than one champ bag prior to 50 things might change a little bit, at least that way the newly dinged people can have some point to start from, or give crafters the ability to make a few bits and pieces with some expertise at 50. Preferably a combination of both. You can have 5 champ bags. Convert WZ to merc till you hit 1k merc, then re-cap WZ. At 200/200 per bag, that = 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 What makes the 1-49 bracket so "fair" is that 30-49 have a clear advantage over 10-29 for many classes. Don't act like everyone is on equal footing with no differences at all, that isn't even remotely true. Oh I would like brackets for all level groups. That is not the issue. The issue is that 10-49 bracket is more fun overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aowar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Um...actually you are completely wrong. It's like lining 10 runners up for the 100 meter dash and giving 2 of them steroids simply because they have ran more races than the other 8 runners. Sounds fair right? Winning the race should be the goal, as opposed to running enough races to earn steroids. I can play that game also. You suggest that a new employee should be given the same 100k salary for showing up to work as the 20 year vet who has vastly more experience. In your world this is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Wait but that would give you an unfair advantage in the market and therefore you cannot possibly favor such a thing. After all you want everyone to be on equal footing. Bring back communism!!! It will work this time! Wrong. Because anyone can get money together to buy it. I don't have to volunteer to get rolled over and over and over and over again with people who out gear me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazule Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think we should all run around WZ naked with a stick and whack on each other! (i hate pvp gear but above statement is the only solution to it in this game, it is what it is and if you dont like it THAT much you should unsubscribe as your quality of life is going down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbiggggy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 pretty much everything the op said thats what i have been doing got my sin to 50 hated the gear system and im behind all the exploiters that hit 50 first by miles so i am just re rolling characters and playing in the 10-49 bracket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Um...actually you are completely wrong. It's like lining 10 runners up for the 100 meter dash and giving 2 of them steroids simply because they have ran more races than the other 8 runners. Sounds fair right? Winning the race should be the goal, as opposed to running enough races to earn steroids. Well said. See how they try to turn that around on you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trews Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I can play that game also. You suggest that a new employee should be given the same 100k salary for showing up to work as the 20 year vet who has vastly more experience. In your world this is fair. If the new employee is more skilled at the job than the 20year vet, then why should the vet get the money? Just because he's been there longer? Edited February 1, 2012 by Trews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkbloom Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I sometimes wonder--why not just have gear "bolstering" in L50 Warzones just as there is level bolstering in 1-49? The way it would work is that everybody's stats would be different, based on the ratio of their own stats to each other. But, everyone would have the same total amount of stats. So if a player had lots of endurance compared to other stats, then they'd have more hit points. But it would be comparative, not absolute. This way, the min-maxers could still have fun trying to figure out the best possible ratio of stats to each other. But no matter how well you min-maxed, you would never be that much better or worse than anyone else. All stats would have caps to them, to prevent someone from wearing (for instance) one piece of gear and getting 100% expertise or something. Sure, the gear progression would be a lot less important, but so what? People would still want the top level gear just because it's "cool", or because it has the perfect ratio of stats, or whatever. Edited February 1, 2012 by Darkbloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleen Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I can play that game also. You suggest that a new employee should be given the same 100k salary for showing up to work as the 20 year vet who has vastly more experience. In your world this is fair. Again, you are 100% wrong. As what you are describing above is not a "game" it's a "job". I don't pay to have a job. I get paid by a job. This is a game. His runner/steroid analogy pwns you like a 10000 crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannicus Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 All that needs done (beyond a replacement of the horrible RNG bag system) is for Expertise to be replaced with more and more meaningful stats comparable to PvE (also, worthwhile crafting, but that'll never happen in a themepark anyways). In a gear-based, stat-based game, as much as personal skill makes a difference, your superiority of stats can still be even more impactful than your level of skill depending on factors such as class, build, and how designed the game is towards rewarding better stats. There's nothing inherently wrong with PvP gear in such a setup because it is QUITE stupid to lose so handedly to someone clearly inferior to your skill level solely due to the stat disparity. Losing cuz you don't PvE raid and there's no other available progression to even the playing field is exactly why PvP gear was ever introduced. Character progression, and progression in general, is a staple of the MMO. This is especially true of themeparks because they consistently reward progression with a better character. Given SW:TOR's design, there's nothing wrong with PvP gear. What's wrong is Expertise. This is especially true given that the Bolster system rather effectively neutralizes the impact of gear and superior stats. Expertise is the same exact problem that once existed when some raider would decide to start PvPing and win only cuz of his gear. Now, players who DO PvP are punished because of the same reason, but only because they haven't PvP'd "enough", as well as those who seek to enter the PvP side of the game late. It's an arbitrarily separated progression line and has only gone from one broken side of the spectrum to another broken side. Now, with a PvP stat, your level of skill and gear is near meaningless without said stat, and by having that PvP stat you cannot jump into any meaningful PvE endgame. It's the same problem all over again. Meaningful PVP would be nice. Something not just warzones over and over would be wonderful, especially open world related because this breeds community and roleplay. While the bolster system should and can be improved upon and further equalize things to reward skill over stats (especially if they introduce real open world and meaningful PvP), they need to replace Expertise entirely. It's the equivalent of (since some posters are using the FPS argument) giving players who do CTF all the time special rewards that reward playing CTF and giving them an advantage over others who are new or don't, and then doing the same thing for those who do deathmatch, wherein the rewards are mutually exclusive and worthless in the other game type. It'd be like giving a scout in TF2 two flag caps for the price of one just cuz he plays CTF a lot or a demoman immunity to sentries in assault maps just cause he plays that all the time, unfairly giving an advantage to a player just cuz they play a particular side of the same coin more often or exclusively over another. tl;dr remove Expertise and normalize its stats compared to same-tier PvE gear and all will be well (oh, and the bag system, but that goes without saying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetrump Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 People are leaving the 50's bracket and re-rolling characters so that they can continue to PVP in the 1-49 Brackets. Bioware thinks they are doing this for the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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