SWTOR was promising. I liked it untill now.

[AmandaBynes]

Many of the things the OP posted as plusses about WoW are the same reasons I quit that degrading piece-of-trash game.

 

Arena just doesn't fit in trinity-based MMO. Every season, a handful of comps dominate each bracket, or a handful of classes become godly. It has been the biggest factor in the nerf/buff rollercoaster in that game.

 

Also, I don't care about how many BGs WoW has. All but two are YEARS old. And the two new ones are copies of two of the oldest. The only interesting and fun PvP WoW has is rated BG. Even then, you're running six year old BGs over and over and over and over and over. The fact that Bw is releasing a new WZ already is an exponential improvement over Blizz's release history of new PvP content.

 

The token-for-gear system, especially for tier, was a travesty. There is no progression reason to run any end-game content in that game other than three dungeons and one raid. For months, it was two dungeons and one raid. This systems promotes grinding the same content for weeks. Guess what you do after those two weeks, when you've gotten all your gear from three dungeons and tokens? You run the same raid, kill the same eight bosses over and over and over again. When you're not doing that, you stand around on the capital city doing nothing.

 

Three dungeons.

 

One raid of eight bosses.

 

That's WoW's PvE end-game.

 

I'm sorry, but the only things I agree with here are the GTN improvements.

 

Haha typical WoW hater who makes up stuff about WoW. You realize how similar this game is to WoW? I mean everything is so close its scarey. You also must not be 50, the end game is the same thing as WoW, but with cut scenes and less content. You crack me up

[PjPablo]

Really?

 

You would make this judgement without actually seeing the movie?

 

In order to determine that it 'looked ten-fifteen years old' I would have had to seen the movie, yes?

 

My point is that comparing MMOs is a valid exercise. If one had functionality years ago and someone comes out with one today without that basic functionality people are going to question the new product, and yes some may call it inferior. I think that is fair.

[lexiekaboom]

I went to Burger King today, but instead of buying anything or going to another store, I just told them why McDonalds and Tacobell are better.

 

So any day now, expect HUGE changes to the Burger King menu.

[AmandaBynes]

I went to Burger King today, but instead of buying anything or going to another store, I just told them why McDonalds and Tacobell are better.

 

So any day now, expect HUGE changes to the Burger King menu.

 

Food is a necessity. (Although not that nasty 'I want a gut food'.) A video game, especially an MMO, must adapt to survive a lot more aggressively than food chains. Whether you hate WoW, or Aion, or Age of Conan, or Warhammer, if they feel something from those games will help this game survive, they will do it. Its all about the moneys!

[OddballEasyEight]

I went to Burger King today, but instead of buying anything or going to another store, I just told them why McDonalds and Tacobell are better.

 

So any day now, expect HUGE changes to the Burger King menu.

 

Hehehe best response ever

Im stealing that one

[Skoobie]

In order to determine that it 'looked ten-fifteen years old' I would have had to seen the movie, yes?

 

My point is that comparing MMOs is a valid exercise. If one had functionality years ago and someone comes out with one today without that basic functionality people are going to question the new product, and yes some may call it inferior. I think that is fair.

 

You've never seen a commercial for a movie?

 

My point is, if you are going to compare MMO's, just because it's an MMO, then you must compare all movies together too, since they are all movies.

[DarthBubba]

All of your points are invalid because WoW Vanilla had none of that. YOu cannot compare Wow with three expansions and 10 years of content to swtor which has only been out for 6 weeks. Swtor has more pve and pvp than wow had at vanilla. Vanilla wow pvp was defending the Crossroads or Tarren Mills. And when wow finally got Battlegrounds it was the SAME 3 over and over again just like SWTOR. WoW had 1 raid, I remember because I did it over and over again till I was sick. Within a year things in wow hadn't changed. People were complaining and begging for the developers to find a way to stop mass gankings and questgivers or flight masters from being killed so wow came up with their battlegrounds. WoW vanilla had nothing compared to what SWTOR has and it's unfair to compare the two. After ten years I'm sure swtor will have as much or more than wow does.

[Lularapio]

A polished turd is still turd

[commandkill]

I really hope they bring out a patch which decreases the amount of loading screens.

[Lularapio]

All of your points are invalid because WoW Vanilla had none of that. YOu cannot compare Wow with three expansions and 10 years of content to swtor which has only been out for 6 weeks. Swtor has more pve and pvp than wow had at vanilla. Vanilla wow pvp was defending the Crossroads or Tarren Mills. And when wow finally got Battlegrounds it was the SAME 3 over and over again just like SWTOR. WoW had 1 raid, I remember because I did it over and over again till I was sick. Within a year things in wow hadn't changed. People were complaining and begging for the developers to find a way to stop mass gankings and questgivers or flight masters from being killed so wow came up with their battlegrounds. WoW vanilla had nothing compared to what SWTOR has and it's unfair to compare the two. After ten years I'm sure swtor will have as much or more than wow does.

 

So you expect everyone to be paying this game for 10 years in order to get basic tools this game was unable to make at launch, right?

[Skoobie]

So you expect everyone to be paying this game for 10 years in order to get basic tools this game was unable to make at launch, right?

 

You expect a game to launch with all the features of a 10 year old game, but with less time to do it in?

[AmandaBynes]

You expect a game to launch with all the features of a 10 year old game, but with less time to do it in?

 

So new games shouldn't compete with the existing MMO market? I can tell you run a business. That is always the excuse, and its a poor one.

[Skoobie]

So new games shouldn't compete with the existing MMO market? I can tell you run a business. That is always the excuse, and its a poor one.

 

I wasn't making an excuse, I was asking a question.

 

And it's a fair question.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Skoobie

[Lularapio]

Why ask a question that you already have the answer for it?

 

Do you think they would take 5 years just to implement a stupid group tool in the game?

 

Explain me why then there's a pvp queue tool and there is not one for flashpoints.

 

The way you guys militate against LFG tools, bioware should as well remove PVP queue tools and make everyone start their own damn pvp group and run to the warzone instance itself.

 

See what I did there?

[skyvortex]

I went to Burger King today, but instead of buying anything or going to another store, I just told them why McDonalds and Tacobell are better.

 

So any day now, expect HUGE changes to the Burger King menu.

 

Burger king makes good burgers.

See the difference?

[DarthRik]

Why ask a question that you already have the answer for it?

 

Do you think they would take 5 years just to implement a stupid group tool in the game?

 

Explain me why then there's a pvp queue tool and there is not one for flashpoints.

 

The way you guys militate against LFG tools, bioware should as well remove PVP queue tools and make everyone start their own damn pvp group and run to the warzone instance itself.

 

See what I did there?

 

but the rewards for pvp are give out side of the warzone, there is no loot that is dropped

 

pvp groups and pve groups are two diffrent things

[ErisktheRed]

Hello

 

I got to level fifty about one month ago from now and I couldn't stop bragging about how amazing this game was. I was on these forums daily trying to fight away the people who hate this game and making suggestions for end game. Quite simply you can call me blinded and obsessed. I couldn't face denial that this game actually is bad.

 

Here I am now then telling you why I dislike the game and seeing if I can relate to those who back up this game that had promise but has lost it.

 

1) PvP:

PvP was promising. Huttball was new and enjoyable (imo) and the other two warzones were attractive and easy to get used to. However after playing these same three warzones over and over with no differentiation is a drag. Especially having to get to valor 60 for the best gear simply either farming rare empire kills in illum (I say rare because each one I attack has 5 people on back-up behind them) or farming those three warzones alot!!

 

"Why can you not play this game just because you enjoy playing?" I did enjoy playing but come on, be logical. Doing the same three things over and over simply doesn't maintain it's excitement.

 

2) PvE: Just flashpoint after flashpoint and the only reason to do it is for the gear piece at the end to be traded for columi. No decent gear any other way. Flashpoint drops were terrible. Took forever to find a full group even tho its only 4 man. No reputation gains to buy gear from reputation vendors etc. Just a boring one way street.

 

The reasons behind why WoW was enjoyable with PvP

• Dueling in durotar/elwynn added competitiveness against own faction. Cannot happen here because there is no dueling area within 10 seconds from the main part of the fleet without going through a loading screen.
  
• Arena. Yes arena added excitement to PvP and added competition. I enjoy competition and therefore is why SWTOR has lost its edge for me. No matter how much you hate arena it is still better than anything SWTOR has to offer at this moment. It consists of rewards if you are good and is not dependant on others. It feels personal to you making a team. Just endless hours could be spent trying to increase rating and the feeling of winning was great.
  
• Ratings for arena and battleground groups. Added competition and elitism. Made the community thrive in a bad or good way. Depends how you think about it.
  
• Battleground were alot larger than SWTORs and added an MMO feel to it. Mounting included.
  

 

The reasons behind why WoW was enjoyable with PvE

• It didn't just involve token rewards from dungeons. The actual gear from dungeons was useful. Made people have a sense of excitement when killing a boss waiting for loot to drop. Wasn't free access to token gear at the end of each dungeon.
  
• The token grind for gear that was worth XXXX amount of tokens wasn't long. It was only 2 weeks of lock time or so. Compared to SWTOR this is short.
  
• One of my favorite features of WoW when it was in WoW was the daily heroic where you had to kill a specific boss in a specific dungeon.
  
• Dungeon finder was easy to use and using it gave rewards.
  

 

The reasons why WoW was enjoyable

• Community was larger and auction house was thriving. Had an actual economy. Felt good.
  
• Events that took place when events took palce in reality. E.G christmas events that gave you decent rewards from doing christmas stuff or valentines day etc etc.
  
• You could re-do you characters hair style at the barbers.
  
• Professions felt great once they were leveled to the max. Felt like you achieved something.
  
• Fishing, Archaeology, First aid etc
  
• You could attack the enemy cities. Also attack towns and cities alone as long as you avoided elites because guards were only normal mobs. In SWTOR guards are champions for most places.
  
• Flying mounts
  
• Quick travel with portals.
  
• Daily quest zone had dailys close together and it interacted with opposite faction. So it could also be pvp. Zones were small and easy to complete. Not a drag. Illum daily area doesn't have much zones shared with imperial and is quite the drag in illum.
  
• Guilds had reputation/amazing rewards for being exalted with guild. Heirlooms to level alts with. Mounts etc.
  
• The ammount of gear varied massively and it wasn't allways the vendor gear that was the best. Unlike SWTOR where you can only rely on vendor gear.
  

 

The reasons why Rift was enjoyable for me (I played no part in pvp so I have no idea what it is like)

• Frequent world events / updates. Rifts opened and invasions happened where community would group up.
  
• Zones were shared with opposite faction at higher level instead of split into two halves.
  
• PvE gear was aquired only from bosses. Vendor gear was not necessary the best gear again. Also crafted gear was good and there was crafting daily/weekly.
  
• Crafting was updated frequently
  
• Training dummys
  
• Multiple currencys from rifts. Allowed purchase of gear that could be used at end-game level.
  
• Reputation mounts.
  
• Reputation
  
• 10-man instances were completely different to 25-man. 10 man rifts were available and 5 man.
  
• two tiers of dungeon at launch.
  
• and more!
  

 

Good points obviously. But everything said comparing with WoW was a process and progress it wasn't there at launch either actually SWTOR reminds me a lot of WoW AT launch... that being said... BW isn't reinventing the wheel here, they should know from WoW's experience and Rift and others to implement AT launch... that's lacking now. It's just clear many aspects weren't ready for launch.

 

The funny thing is I am confident SWTOR will go direction of WoW and hopefully Rift now as listed by OP, when thjey could have just done similar at the start.

 

I just think MMO aspects of the game wasn't ready at all, it's very evident - frankly, they spent so much time on awesome class stories and VOs (and not complaining here that SHOULD come first) they neglected end-game aspects and PvP. What it is now just seems like a system put there as a placeholder until they figure something better to implement.

[Lularapio]

stop wasting air and space

 

it's not too hard to get the point of the examples given tirelessly by every unsatisfied member posting here

[Superastro]

I miss arenas... Yes to competitive gameplay!

[Skoobie]

stop wasting air and space

 

it's not too hard to get the point of the examples given tirelessly by every unsatisfied member posting here

 

Too bad the concept of patience and understanding goes right over most heads.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Skoobie

[WarTornPanda]

So, go back to WoW or Rift.

 

Stop complaining, go do what you enjoy doing.

 

If I ever have the chance to participate in the creation of an MMORPG, the first thing I will try to do is make it a ban worthy offense to tell people to go play a different game. So tired of this attitude.

[StrawberryMochi]

I went to Burger King today, but instead of buying anything or going to another store, I just told them why McDonalds and Tacobell are better.

 

So any day now, expect HUGE changes to the Burger King menu.

 

except I did buy Burger King for two months, and the problems havent been fixed, which is why I will go eat at McDonalds or Tacobell.

 

see waht i did thur?

[Leithian]

This argument again?

 

WoW had development time, too (announced Sept '01, released Nov '04; estimated 4-5 years' work in all). Then it launched, and then it had ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS of development. Tens of millions of dollars went into that game after it was released, for year after year after year.

 

All that stuff that people love (and hate) about WoW didn't magically appear overnight. And Bioware has no way to copy and paste any of it into SWTOR, even if they wanted to.

 

I understand why people feel this way, and I'm sympathetic in part. I, too, want to play games that are well made, and I want to hold the devs to a high standard in that regard. I don't want to accept a bad product and just say, "That's how things are."

 

However, people like you take it too far and become illogical and unreasonable when you proclaim that every feature from a game you love is expected to be in new games. I understand why you'd WANT this, truly I do, but I don't understand why you'd EXPECT it. To do so is to ignore basic truths about software design and development. Maybe you don't know much about software design and development. Maybe you don't care that what you're asking for cannot happen and isn't reasonable. That's ok; you don't need to know or care. But ignorance and apathy aren't a sound foundation for your arguments.

 

You might say I'm being a fanboy, or mindlessly defending mediocrity. I'm neither. I'm simply trying to ground this discussion in reality, rather than the sense of entitlement that's so pervasive here.

 

All this stuff you want? It takes time and money. No MMO has ever launched with all of this stuff. That last statement, alone, should be a gentle clue about realistic expectations.

 

Look at it this way. If you go buy a new car from a new manufacturer, and it costs the same price as a Honda Civic and the monthly payment is the same as a Honda Civic. Just because Honda have been around a while you'd still expect your new car to have the same features, cd player , a/c , electric windows etc.

 

They haven't got to develop anything, same as a new car manufacturer doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. All the tools are there for all to see, mostly created by the community and then implemented as base content into games such as WoW.

 

Game developers who want to keep a healthy community have to provide what has become the standard if they wish to maintain a player base. I promise you in any industry a product released with less features than a predecessor will fail. Rift is an example of this, hundreds of hacked accounts due to no security key. No mods at launch made a few more leave, before the game was 6 months old the servers were getting closed.

 

Shiny new graphics will only hold people for so long, its the functionality etc that keeps people coming back. this game can only survive if it appeals to the mass market because all these games are in part community driven. No community no game. Telling people to leave and go back to WoW will destroy this game. You need a community and some of the changes people are asking for are not game breaking. They remove some time sinks and allow for a better flow of game play.

[Skoobie]

Look at it this way. If you go buy a new car from a new manufacturer, and it costs the same price as a Honda Civic and the monthly payment is the same as a Honda Civic. Just because Honda have been around a while you'd still expect your new car to have the same features, cd player , a/c , electric windows etc.

 

They haven't got to develop anything, same as a new car manufacturer doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. All the tools are there for all to see, mostly created by the community and then implemented as base content into games such as WoW.

 

Big difference between cars and games.

 

The reason these car companies don't have to develop anything, is because other manufacturers are supplying the cd players, ac's, and research to the car manufacturers. If they had to do it on their own, then yes, it would take some longer then others.

 

This doesn't happen in games. The game companies DO have to develop features to work on their engine. There's no 3-rd party supplying LFG tools to Blizzard and Bioware. (Not including community content). And I seriously doubt Bioware can just walk into Blizzard and ask how they implemented their LFG tool. And even if they could, it still probably wouldn't work the same way on a different engine.

 

You go to a movie theater.

You pay the same amount for a ticket/popcorn/drinks as you did when you saw Avatar.

Do you now expect this movie that you are seeing to have the same "features" as Avatar did?

Edited February 5, 2012 by Skoobie

[Horanax]

I read about 3 pages of this 48 page long thread so I am likely not the first to point this out but here it is anyway.

 

There are a number of you that are saying "just leave and play <insert game here>" and a number more that are saying why some other game is better than this one. The problem I believe here is a lack of understanding between the two parties, something which I hope that we can eventually fix so that way we can make this game better.

 

Those that are saying just to leave:

Understand that the people who are posting about another game being better don't wish to leave but they don't feel like they have a choice. The problem is that they aren't phrasing things the way you expect them too, and you flaming them just makes them angry and then we are spending all our time fighting each other instead of fixing the game.

 

Those that are saying another game is better:

Understand that even though many of you are trying to give what you consider to be criticism in hopes of bringing issues to light such that they can be fixed, but the way in which you are doing it isn't easily understood and often offensive. Try rewording things and making them constructive criticism instead of just criticism. I will give an example.

 

WoW has a better grouping system for instances. <Not helpful>

SWToR would be better served if we had a system that grouped us for flashpoints or a chat channel that could be read on all planets and stations. <Helpful>

 

 

I know that there will always be some that don't fall into either one of these categories are are people that just like to flame and some that really do just want to criticize, but there are many that are getting lumped in with no thought process. Here is hoping we can get better communication between the community so we can help create a game that will last a long time.