DarthBloodloss Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) the main benefit of biochem outshines other top of the line crafted items even if we had unlimited resources. no other crafting skill can perma buff you and give you 1.5k HP and 50 defense. That alone makes it such a good skill for raids. when you are learning how to do certain instances, stacking some extra HP is going to help. once you have it down and aren't going to take as much random damage, you can switch to the +135aim (or other main stat) and +40? power to increase your DPS. Hard to get that from any other skill. You can also make a biochem version of a relic (called an adrenal) which doesn't take up a slot. having a 3rd relic (or 2nd if you use a matrix cube) will let you always have a relic to use. (outside of cooldown times). With 2 relics, you can pop one, wait for CD, then the other, and youll have a small gap while waiting for the first one to CD. With the biochem adrenal, you can use a 3rd one to fill in that gap. I have a Champion Crit Relic, a Champion Power Relic, and a Biochem Power Adrenal. I constantly cycle between the three. I also have a defense biochem adrenal for huttball when Im the ball carrier and need that extra bit of defense to score. Edited January 31, 2012 by DarthBloodloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plicitous Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I know this is difficult for you and your ilk to understand but there are a considerable number of MMO players out there who aren't hardcore min-maxers. *Gasp!* Crazy huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwaysx Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) the main benefit of biochem outshines other top of the line crafted items even if we had unlimited resources. no other crafting skill can perma buff you and give you 1.5k HP and 50 defense. That alone makes it such a good skill for raids. when you are learning how to do certain instances, stacking some extra HP is going to help. once you have it down and aren't going to take as much random damage, you can switch to the +135aim (or other main stat) and +40? power to increase your DPS. Hard to get that from any other skill. You can also make a biochem version of a relic (called an adrenal) which doesn't take up a slot. having a 3rd relic (or 2nd if you use a matrix cube) will let you always have a relic to use. (outside of cooldown times). With 2 relics, you can pop one, wait for CD, then the other, and youll have a small gap while waiting for the first one to CD. With the biochem adrenal, you can use a 3rd one to fill in that gap. I have a Champion Crit Relic, a Champion Power Relic, and a Biochem Power Adrenal. I constantly cycle between the three. I also have a defense biochem adrenal for huttball when Im the ball carrier and need that extra bit of defense to score. Theoretically in terms of damage alone, Synthweaving/Armormech provides more. Refer to the previous page. However, in practicality.. Edited February 1, 2012 by Alwaysx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenetke Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I think they need to remove the reusability personally. It either makes biochem too appealing if it stay exclusive, or it eventually removes any economy for buying stims from vendors or eventually from biochemists when everyone already has the reusables. IMO it should be limited use. Like 15 uses or something. Maybe a critical could be unlimited, but that gets into the same issues as above. I like the idea mentioned that you get a boost to crafted items if you have that skill. Could solve some of the issues of having other crafts be "useless" in the endgame. If crafted gear is slightly worse than raid gear, it could be boosted to be slightly better if it's your skill. Why do you need raid level gear if you don't raid? This whole argument is just silly tbh. They aren't done nerfing biochem, because it's still useful. They will nerf it more, until it's like all other crafting "useless". Then they will start on cybertech. I have never seen a game try so damn hard to kill off one of it's features so badly. They should just fix it by introducing consumables to each crafting profession. arms get a consumable that gives a bonus to damage last 1 hour can be re to get a blue version and then to get a purple reusable version that requires a variable amount of arms. armor/synth a consumable that gives a bonus to ...armor artifice consumable that works on lightsabers Then make each of them cost as much in mats as a stim for biochem. People would then complain about the material requirements, even though biochem has been paying it since the start but who cares. for arms/artifice they could even introduce some cool consumables. one that increases elemental damage dealt by x% one that increases physical damage dealt by x% one that increases shield, or deflect by x% one that gives the weapon a x% chance to heal you for y% of the damage dealt They could do similar with armor synth. I'm not the first to suggest this though, and I doubt I will be the last. This was even suggested during beta. The game has been live for a bit, and not even a response to it except the QQ people got another skill nerfed. So likely they will just continue to nerf till crafting is just undesirable at all. But ultimately, biochem is the 'best' skill. I hope that Bioware goes back and looks at this again. It's a tricky balancing act. Do you nerf something or buff something else? Does your solution create new problems? I mean, giving armormechs an armor buff sounds innocent enough, but does that lead to tanks being expected to take armormech or syntheweaving? If armstechs get a damage buff, does that mean that DPS classes will be expected to take armstech as their skill in order to compete? And what sort of benefit would cybertechs and artificers get? It might not be easy, but I really think that something has to be done. Not if they make it a consumable that anyone can use, just like stims. Then anyone can use them. The people that have the skill could re them into blue, then reusable purple that would require the skill just like biochem. Edited February 1, 2012 by Tenetke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kheldras Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ..cause my Smuggy is close to 400 Cybertech, and i love the craft? I took Biotech for my 2.nd Char though (before i knew if reusable packs), as i always land at something alchemy. Its useful, and saves tons of brought Medkits & Buffpacks but its boring... maybe i get Synthweaver or Armstech on my 3rd... to build some Orange wearables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vekien Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 im not 400 cuse i cant find a single schematic lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supic Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 btw do not forget that biochem can craft items as well - critically crafted implants from schematics that drop from BT HM for example are still lovely so u get both adrenal advantage and crafting one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borghe Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) but again, coming from a STAT argument, which is where everyone was throwing around adrenals, armormech/cybertech/synthweave will currently give you better STATS with BIS bracers and belts (and for cybertech, BIS ear and BOP grenades) the main argument I'm hearing time and time and time again for biochem simply comes down to the cost of adrenals.. because really, the reusable rakata stims is what we've already gone over as far as the stat boost goes. The reusable rakata stims over the level 48 non-BOP stims is a +24 stat boost. so if it comes down to cost for adrenals... a few things to remember.. running all of the SOLO dailies will net you around 160K credits a day. running ALL of the dailies will net you around 275K per day. also the people suggesting 10-15 adrenals per raid night are going REALLY high frankly. you use adrenals during burn phases, and I would go so far as to say I only personally use adrenals during fights where we look like we have a chance. if we are still learning mechanics and likely to wipe on a mechanic, I'm not spending an adrenal on that fight. If we have the DPS without me using an adrenal to beat enrage, I'm not using an adrenal. basically I am only using an adrenal if beating enrage is going to be close and everyone using an adrenal or not using an adrenal will make the difference. and that 20-25 adrenal number... ummm.. whoever said that, you're just throwing money out the window, seriously. What, are you using adrenals on EVERY wipe? We have 2 down in hard EV in our first two days of raiding, and I haven't gone through even 10 adrenals.. according to some of your crazy math I should have expected to go through 40-50 adrenals by now!!!! no thanks.. I'll keep my cybertech and craftable columi ear pieces for now, and throw my buddy 100K every once in a while (half a day's dailies.. oh noes..) to get some persistent stims and +crit adrenals. Edited February 1, 2012 by borghe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supic Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 2 borghe - cyber will craft u ONE earpiece while biochem will craft u TWO implants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novastinger Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yes as a dps I easily use 20-40 adrenals in a night of operations, but I am biochem (switched from 400 synthweaver), so that doesn't cost me anything. I'll pop it everytime it's up when hitting the meaty part of my dps rotation (along with relic), and the only time to refrain is if a boss is coming up next, or you want to save it for a specific burn phase of a boss. Another nice part of biochem is you basically have no need to RE anything (the RE process is the antithesis of fun). Just get the rakata stim/medpac/adrenal and do daily quests for implants, or wait for a suitable operations biochem implant schematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borghe Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) 2 borghe - cyber will craft u ONE earpiece while biochem will craft u TWO implants craftable implants are BOE. it provides no advantage to biochems. craftable rakata gear is BOP meaning only the crafter can use it. and I covered that the ear piece for cybertech was only one. but they also get grenades... cybertech is basically like engineering in WoW.. very tough to take 1:1 against the other professions because of all of the non-stat perks. vanity vehicles, grenades, etc. Yes as a dps I easily use 20-40 adrenals in a night of operations, but I am biochem (switched from 400 synthweaver), so that doesn't cost me anything. I'll pop it everytime it's up when hitting the meaty part of my dps rotation (along with relic), and the only time to refrain is if a boss is coming up next, or you want to save it for a specific burn phase of a boss. Another nice part of biochem is you basically have no need to RE anything (the RE process is the antithesis of fun). Just get the rakata stim/medpac/adrenal and do daily quests for implants, or wait for a suitable operations biochem implant schematic. I'm a scrapper smuggler, and honestly, you are throwing money away. If your op is only getting a boss down to 60%, your adrenal was wasted. If your op wiped during the first burn phase, your adrenal was wasted. If you can't be near guaranteed to make it to the second burn phase of a boss, using an adrenal on the first burn phase is a waste. and any raid leader who "requires" adrenals to be used every burn phase and pre-potted on every pull is a moron if the boss hasn't been downed and isn't near being downed. look at it this way.. adrenals (or pots.. this is OLD math) basically contribute around 2-5% DPS PER PERSON on CD. This means if every DPS pre-pots and pots for burn perfectly, raid DPS goes up 5%. It also means if you are the only one doing it in a fight, raid DPS goes up only 1.25%. Are you 5% away from killing the boss? are you 1.25% away from killing the boss? If you guys aren't close in killing the boss, you are wasting them. Now it's your money to waste... and you certainly saw this in wow. I mean why wouldn't an alchemist pot up when they are cheap as hell relatively? but honestly... this emphasis being placed on adrenals for PVE ops is hilarious. they are potions people, to be used during the burn phases on fights that are close. no different mechanic than wow. now pvp might be a different story... and if biochem is "required" for PVP, that is a whole other issue. but for PVE, biochem is hardly required. if you want cheap adrenals and stims, have a blast... but some of the BIS gear comes from synthweaving, armormech and cybertech (and supposedly armstech schematics are now dropping in hard ops as well) and currently the BIS gear is pretty much near a wash with the rakata stims and adrenals. Edited February 1, 2012 by borghe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endriago Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Im annoyed it hasnt been addressed. I think the best partial fix until the others profs get a perk or two is that they should just remove the requirement that only biochem crafters can use the reusables. That way they will still get credits for selling them, and anyone can use them... This! Good fix till the other CS's get fix'd. Although we all know that biochems would charge some ridiculousness amounts of money for them, at first. and people would buy into it, at first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerolegacy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I'm a scrapper smuggler, and honestly, you are throwing money away. If your op is only getting a boss down to 60%, your adrenal was wasted. If your op wiped during the first burn phase, your adrenal was wasted. If you can't be near guaranteed to make it to the second burn phase of a boss, using an adrenal on the first burn phase is a waste. and any raid leader who "requires" adrenals to be used every burn phase and pre-potted on every pull is a moron if the boss hasn't been downed and isn't near being downed. He's biochem though, so using the purple adrenal isn't used, therefore no cost. If most of the ops are biochem, and they're popping their adrenals every fight, it definitely makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluejayoo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I can only speak for myself, but I find Artificer fun. I admit it's not particularly useful at the end game, but it is interesting to me to be able to make different colored crystals. I have been tempted to switch to biochem, but my guild is pretty open and isn't requiring biochem for raiding... yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrkLore Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Because I like Cybertech just fine tyvm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevNYC Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 He's biochem though, so using the purple adrenal isn't used, therefore no cost. If most of the ops are biochem, and they're popping their adrenals every fight, it definitely makes a difference. Right, but his larger point is that the "savings" from using Biochem are overstated given that the non-Biochemists shouldn't be blowing through consumables at such a high rate anyway. Biochems are saving a ton of money only in comparison to people who are wasting a ton of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell_Solo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I went the other direction, I switched from Bio-Chem when I was a lvl 19 Smuggler to Cybertech. Mainly because I like creating gadgets more than potions and drugs. I wish I had a better reason, but I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farbod Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Hardcore raiders and min/maxers basically go biochem. RPers and casuals have more fun doing other things. The sad thing is that there is a line drawn because of the imbalance that biochem has created... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodymoon Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Because I craft critted orange Lightsabers for the rest of the guild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufuSwho Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Besides the tinkering that they will surely still do to existing craft skills, I don't think 400 will remain the cap forever. With a new crafting cap, each skill has a possibility of having it's own unique benifit. Most likely you will see people favoring certain skills in waves as nerfs and enhancements of crafting skills progress. Balance is hard to acheive in an MMO. Instead a constant shifting of tides seems to be the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanealpha Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Go Biochem everyone...yeah EVERYONE go Biochem....no need to have ANY other crafting skill...just go Biochem. If EVERYONE goes Biochem you'll be better off. ...and I'll rake in the credits supplying all those people for their non-Biochem needs, and the price of Biochem items for my use will be driven down to rock bottom prices due to over supply. Go Biochem! Edited February 1, 2012 by thanealpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kil-Gorbane Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with this earlier post... "They should just fix it by introducing consumables to each crafting profession." I personally think that it is crazy that as an artificer/treasure hunter/archaeologist that it takes forever (400/400/400 with 10K companion affection) to find the purple gemstones that are required for 47+ equipment (4 C Gems for any lightsaber piece). To put this in perspective the materials for a 47 Saber hilt (purple Guardian 22, Might 22, etc.) cost about 45k on the AH as of this morning. And I am struggling to sell a finished product for 55k (AH deposit is about 6.5k). So forget the fact that I essentially dropped multiple 100k worth of credits to get to that point in crafting and find the blue-> purple schematics. But I have to continuously find/purchase the purple gemstones that go for 10k a piece on the AH. But finally when I reach the semi-end game products i can barely turn a profit off the high end crafts? I just recently got the Magenta +33 crit schematic. The materials cost about 80k for that. I have people only wanting to pay 100k for it when I provide the materials. Do you know how long it takes to go up up and down that mountain on Hoth by myself as a Rep (even when I'm drinking the stupid cup)? Or how about when I have to find people on Ilum to kill the boss, and even then I can max collect 6 uncut Magenta crystals if I am fast enough and have the materials. (BTW, it costs 20k alone to change out one of these crystals from your ligthsaber) I understand that all the crafts require initial capital investment (lvl up the schematics, find the materials). And I do not mind the grind. However, The problem is that the majority of these crafts are 1 time purchases. They are monetary sink holes. When you craft a consumable; by default your demand does not flux. When you craft a non-consumable; the demand will continuously decrease. This issue is compounded when you factor in the fact that vendors sell customization products. From lvls 10-47 you can get your crystal colors from vendors without needing a crafter. AND then you can remove it for a minimal charge. (I know that the same argument can be made for stims and meds since you can buy these products from vendors too, but not at end game lvls...) Now I am for easy play, easy customization, and easy repair but the fact remains... the majority of crafting classes have by default diminishing returns and decreasing demand. Some solution thoughts:- I am not suggesting a specific nerf for one craft, but just make all the crafts useful.- Useful consumable products for all crafts- Funnel some of the repair/customization costs back to the crafters. If you imagine a color crystal and stim as the same --- both require schematics and scavenging of materials. A crystal will degrade over time and the stim gets used. It is cheaper to become a bio-crafter and make your own reusable stims/meds. Because when compared to the only 'consumable' element for the other crafts - repair - they are easily and cheaply repaired by the NPC vendors. The crafter is involved once in the entire process.- Remove consumables. Why do we need these? Just enhance the equipment and customization. If you want additional stats, make it exclusively obtained from a crafter. If you want a med, make it a reusable first aid kit.- I even liked it when slicers were flush with money. Then that truly trickled down the money to everyone else. This could work, its not like the real world. Inflation is kept in check by steady BW vendor prices for stims/meds/armor/weapons. After all, when these commodities are held steady and money is made out of thin air (slicer missions and lockboxes) there is no issue with inflation - everyone gets rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Duck Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Because I craft critted orange Lightsabers for the rest of the guild. wasn't aware you could make a lightsaber ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrablade Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Cybertech (main): Cause I make my own mounts for one, reusable grenades for pvp that gives me more options to cc, and finally I can make all the purple ship parts for when space combat gets expanded for my guild. Space pvp is coming folks, just wait. Armormech: My alt makes all the oranges to sell on the ah and I make a killing for my main. Artificing: Alt makes crystals that I can sell or use for my main. Anything more humiliating for sith then dying to pink blaster fire? Biochem: I have my sage running this so she can get implants while leveling, oh and for my main as well. Cheaper stimpacks once she gets to lvl too. Edited February 1, 2012 by Tetrablade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLapp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I have biochem on my main. When I created my alt I really wanted to try a different set of crew skills but after looking at what I could do with the other ones I had no reason not to also choose biochem on my alt (I did drop diplomacy for slicing since that wasn't needed). I like the idea of having blue stims and adrenals have multiple uses per item (like 10 per item, or maybe 5 uses for a stim and 15 uses for an adrenal). I think the main issue is that it is completely unaffordable for non-biochem users to get any kind of similar benefits to reusable items. I think that would maintain a benefit of being biochem but also allow those who want to do a different crafting skill to be able to purchase decent consumables are a reasonable price. Edited February 1, 2012 by JLapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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