Expertise: The root of all evil

[Aerojinx]

I miss the days were it took a long time to get geared, and raiding was the only way to get good gear. Made me actually want to raid and enjoy the content. When I got full t1/t2 it was like a job well done then I went around and rolled people in BRM... Good days, death to expertise!!!

[Darth_Philar]

Why dont we just get rid of gear and make everyone play naked? thatd be fair right?

 

its a bloody mmo you have to reward the people who put more time in or theres no point to playing. If you want to compete in a perfectly fair environment go play counter strike or something

 

PvP is not MMO, it is restricted to 8v8.

 

The only way to balance 8v8 is to remove stats and let player skill determine outcomes instead of gear.

 

If you want PvP rewards, then you should get titles, mounts, cosmetic gear, etc. Nothing that will impact the PvP.

[Husanak]

The current 50 bracket is only "TERRIBLE" because you just came from being 49 (meaning you had the biggest advantage known to man) and then went to 50 being at a disadvantage. It's a HUGE change of pace to go from winning without trying to losing while trying.

 

Don't get me wrong the lastest toon is a Sin... I have one Piece of gear thanks too the great grab bag system... so I have a wooping 1% expertise bonus on that toon. I have stacked a toon of crit and surge... and I normaly end up in the top 3 in dmg and seeing as most 50s are not much better then the players in the 10-49 I guard a good 50-60k a match and put down 9-10 medals. So no I don't HATE 50 pvp even with out the fantastic gear. I do notice the difference for sure though... and I don't mean to brag but yes I am good enough to understand what the difference is when I fight someone who is in full gear. I sometimes still beat them... (Again not bragging) beat faces in in one MMO the next one isn't much different.

 

I also think I can say with pretty high confidence that bolster does work in general. No it is not perfect of course... there is no way to make up for missing skill tree points, and the like. In general though the bolstered matches are good. I think most people will agree that pretty much anyone over 24 or so (by then most classes have there main skills) is on pretty even footing. At the very least its a system closer too good pvp then the end game gear tier grind.... and now right now I don't consider the TOR 50 bracket too be that bad... I really am just looking down the road and Knowing that with the system we have right now its going to get worse. Gear will progress and new pvp players will NOT enter pvp in TOR, Bio will Realize how small a community the hardcore pvp subs really is in this type of theme park MMO and we can kill future content good bye.

[Gwal]

Why dont we just get rid of gear and make everyone play naked? thatd be fair right?

 

its a bloody mmo you have to reward the people who put more time in or theres no point to playing. If you want to compete in a perfectly fair environment go play counter strike or something

 

Rewards don't have to be stats that cause balance issues. Clouding your mind WoW is. Creativity much there was before the Clone WoWs.

[Dee-Jay]

Expertise should only reduce incoming damage.

 

Damage increases enough already simply by Strength/Aim/Cunning/Wisdom, Crit-,Surge- and Power increasing constantly.

 

Endurance isn't enough to cancel out that increase.

[Adzzy]

the issue isn't expertise, if there was no expertise but people were running around in full rakata gear, the effect would be the same.

 

The issue is that there are way too many skills that have multiplicative buff effects, assassin shock, juggernaut smash, bh crap, and so forth.

 

That 10-12% give or take doesn't mean crap, it's that high damage stat gear with skills being spammed that are for example, smash, x1.3 here, x2 there, and x1.90 there, oh wow it's that extra 10% expertise is giving them....thats it....

 

Look at your damage against someone in full bm, add say 14%, think that really made a difference?

 

Expertise doesn't mean squat, it's a mechanic to keep pvp gear out of pve, NOT the other way round.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Adzzy

[CapuchinSeven]

the issue isn't expertise, if there was no expertise but people were running around in full rakata gear, the effect would be the same.

 

The issue is that there are way too many skills that have multiplicative buff effects, assassin shock, juggernaut smash, bm crap, and so forth.

 

That 10-12% give or take doesn't mean crap, it's that high damage stat gear with skills being spammed that are for example, smash, x1.3 here, x2 there, and x1.90 there, oh wow it's that extra 10% expertise is giving them....thats it....

 

Look at your damage against someone in full bm, add say 14%, think that really made a difference?

 

Expertise doesn't mean squat, it's a mechanic to keep pvp gear out of pve, NOT the other way round.

 

Which is why the stat is better on PVE gear, then both PVP gear and PVE gear can have the same stats which means new players can enter PVP in PVE gear and not dominate but not be out geared (new players are the life blood of PVP) but because of the extra single PVE stat that PVE gear will have (making bosses hit for less etc) PVP gear would be useless in endgame PVE.

 

There are other ways, so many better ways of dealing with these problems.

[lordniah]

And again, you're wrong- the people that hit level 50 in the first one or two weeks the game was live all leveled up through PVE. Leveling up through PVP is much, much slower. The people who were actually interested in learning PVP in this game and played more warzones to learn their character step by step got to 50 much later.

 

The other thing you get wrong is that people don't actually want to be as powerful as a character that's a month older the instant they arrive at 50. They don't want to spend a month not feeling useful in PVP after they were highly useful between at least level 25 and 49. Then they hit 50 and stop having fun in PVP for a few weeks. That's a design fault, pure and simple.

 

I agree with most of the things you are saying in this thread, but I think you are wrong about pve being a faster way to level. I leveled my first character to 50 using just pve, and it took me like 3 weeks of gaming maybe 6 hours a day on average. I did no space dailies and absolutely no pvp.

 

On my alt, I am leveling with space dalies and pvp, and it is going much quicker. The problem with pve leveling is that you spend a lot of time walking to quest objectives, reading conversations, or looking for groups. None of that awards experience. If you want to speed level, you need to grind pvp and space, and then only do your main story missions and whatever other missions you want to get commendations for gear.

Edited January 30, 2012 by lordniah

[Delavager]

Don't get me wrong the lastest toon is a Sin... I have one Piece of gear thanks too the great grab bag system... so I have a wooping 1% expertise bonus on that toon. I have stacked a toon of crit and surge... and I normaly end up in the top 3 in dmg and seeing as most 50s are not much better then the players in the 10-49 I guard a good 50-60k a match and put down 9-10 medals. So no I don't HATE 50 pvp even with out the fantastic gear. I do notice the difference for sure though... and I don't mean to brag but yes I am good enough to understand what the difference is when I fight someone who is in full gear. I sometimes still beat them... (Again not bragging) beat faces in in one MMO the next one isn't much different.

 

You pretty much counter all arguments made against the level 50 bracket with this statement. If you do top 3 in damage and are overall fine in the level 50 bracket without battlemasters gear then that counters 100% of cases against the 50s bracket gear disparity.

 

I also think I can say with pretty high confidence that bolster does work in general. No it is not perfect of course... there is no way to make up for missing skill tree points, and the like. In general though the bolstered matches are good. I think most people will agree that pretty much anyone over 24 or so (by then most classes have there main skills) is on pretty even footing. At the very least its a system closer too good pvp then the end game gear tier grind.... and now right now I don't consider the TOR 50 bracket too be that bad... I really am just looking down the road and Knowing that with the system we have right now its going to get worse. Gear will progress and new pvp players will NOT enter pvp in TOR, Bio will Realize how small a community the hardcore pvp subs really is in this type of theme park MMO and we can kill future content good bye.

 

It makes it better, and that's true.

 

The biggest unsaid issue is that it's because the game is still "new". When you are in the 10-49 bracket everybody is still "new". Most players don't have a level 50 toon yet. A few months from now or a year from now the 10-49 bracket will be HORRIBLE because it will be full of alts who know what they are doing AND are 39 levels above you. New pvp players won't make it to 50 because the 10-49 bracket will be more of a deterrent that they will end the pvp game sooner.

 

It's ironic because months from now the argument is going to be the exact opposite in that players will cry that the 10-49 bracket is unfair and then it is pointless to do pvp till you get to level 50 where it's more fair.

 

Another thing. The introduction of ranked warzones will fix a lot of these issues because those with full battlemasters gear won't be in the lower ranked warzones which the newer level 50s will be.

[dadamowsky]

Good luck keeping subscribers with that business model. In fairness this is what GW2 will do. We don't have a use case for it used in any other game.

 

I think it will work for GW2 because .... here's the important part .... there is no subscription required

Good luck keeping subscribers when lvl 50 means a choice: massive fun-less grind or end of any fun at all in PvP.

 

There are ways to reward succesful and skilled PvPers: titles, outfits, mounts, rankings, exclusive content zones etc. But when reward allow to beat most skillfull player by the mediocore one, just because the mediocore has enough time and luck to grind his PvP stat gear... that's discouraging enough to limit future 50s (or even - future TOR buyers) desire to play at all. I'm rolling second one to have a chance to play and have fun with all game's aspects (force bless the 10-49 bracket), I'm not sure if I want to roll third just to stop at 45+ to roll 4th and have any fun from all game contents and aspects.

 

You're right, GW2 will have better competitive PvP. Possible to enter at any time from game's purchase/release, not forcing people to grind for gear to mean something in the game. Based on skill not the dedication of farming comms and buying bags. In addition with no subscription. Do you really believe that TOR's PvP scene, with current PvP state, will outlast such combo? I do not.

Edited January 30, 2012 by dadamowsky

[Noollig]

The 10-49 bracket is quite good and has gotten some pretty good reception. It seems bioware should try to make the 50s bracket more like 10-49. I have a level 25 alt that can top the charts and get plenty of medals, while providing something to the team. The 10-49 spread seems like a big difference, but a fresh lvl 20 that just put on all their new pvp gear will have better stats than that 49 who hasn't had an upgrade in 9 levels. The lower level players may not have all their skills yet, but they can still contribute. Imagine a warzone where everyone is 49... that should be what the level 50 bracket is like.

 

Expertise isn't a solution to any problem, it just causes problems. RIFT has Valor, the equivalent stat, but because of the issues it caused as gear improved, they tried to normalize it. So now, the first pvp gear set you can buy is cheap, easy to obtain, and has the exact same amount of Valor as the highest level set. So a pvp noob with some pvp currency saved up can hit 50 and buy a set of armor that gives them the same amount of valor as a dude 30 pvp ranks higher than him. The guy 30 ranks higher still has better stats though, and still has the upper hand because his gear is better.

 

Expertise is a system that widens the gap between fresh 50s and the 50s who got gear faster. The guys who hit 50 first fought people close to their own gear level during the grind, not facing a team of players who had way better stats, and dealt more damage while taking less.

 

A guy in a full BM set is still going to have better stats than a fresh 50, so they already have that advantage, but then on top of that, they deal extra damage and take less damage. That just discourages people. Changing expertise to only reduce damage taken doesn't help any either. The guys with the better gear will still be doing more damage while taking less.

 

A raider who comes into a warzone wearing a set of raid gear... well they should be on the same level as the guys who did enough PvP to get the equivalent PvP gear set. Same goes for a PvP geared player who goes into a raid wearing gear he got while PvPing, why should he be gimped?

 

Aside from that, expertise cancels out damage dealt/received, but still gives 10% more healing. So really, healers are the only ones that come out on top when fully geared.

 

Personally, I like the idea of stat normalization no matter what gear you are wearing while in a warzone.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Noollig

[Pwny_Express]

The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. No, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive.

 

So then make the special stat a PvE stat that only works against NPCs in raid encounters and wouldn't affect players. Then the raiders build up gear to get to the next raid encounter to get gear for the next, etc. without screwing up PvP or trivializing other encounters.

 

These sorts of specialty stats have no place in PvP.

 

There are any number of other solutions as well. I've heard putting stat caps in PvP, taking away the random component to champ bags, easing up the grind, putting in a beginner set that gives you 6% out of the gate.

 

I'd prefer a solution that removes expertise altogether because it kills the PvP population by discouraging new players from bothering with it. Players who've been in a long time don't need a statistical advantage, they already have one by knowing their class and being more organized than newbie pvpers. Just add special cosmetics, titles, etc if they need to show their status as the ultimate leetsauce.

 

Gear isn't the only way to progress either. Instead of gear they could add a special PvP tree with minor buffs that help out, for which you earn skill points by pvp-ing. Things with a long cooldown, but which could be useful in certain situations (snare breaks, a couple seconds run speed, critical protection, etc).

[Stradoo]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

 

I was a fresh 50 just last week and did just fine. Maybe you should learn to play smarter.

[Xaradus]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

 

Why would you use your opener when they have a shield up?

[DosPeros]

Why dont we just get rid of gear and make everyone play naked? thatd be fair right?

 

its a bloody mmo you have to reward the people who put more time in or theres no point to playing. If you want to compete in a perfectly fair environment go play counter strike or something

 

While playing naked has it's appeal I think this would move the game into the adult category and reduce the player base. I have already put a slave girl outfit on Kira and have to hide her character when my daughter enters the room.

 

The issue is not gear/expertise... the issue is not valor... the issue is how people attain it and the purpose of the mechanic. That is the system that is broke.

 

Unfortunately there is always a subset of a population willing to exploit any type of mechanic to obtain an advantage. There are legitimate game mechanics and illegitimate.

 

Here is an example illegitimate:

 

Valor Farmers: Groups who meet at a predetermined time strictly for the purpose of mass valor farming.

 

Specifically one group patiently waits to be annihilated re spawn and then annihilate the other group. While possible and maybe even allowed... not exactly my idea of "someone who worked hard to get battlemaster gear.

 

Here is an example of legitimate:

 

Two factions facing off across a bridge attempting to fish players into the mob for quick annihilation. While also not what was intended it at least allows the smaller (read Republican) faction an opportunity to hit it's daily. In this case no one just lets the other side kill them the team have created a strategy and method which allows each side an opportunity to win...

 

I did not start my PVP grind till level 50.... big mistake which I will not make on my alts, However since then I have begun the PVP grind. I have been a victim a lot lately but I am starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. I have reached rank 34 in valor and now have 4 pieces of champion gear...

 

I am fine with the grind .... I just wish I had confidence that the opposing Battlemasters had achieved their success through the legitimate methods.

[DimeStax]

You are right.... your post was a waste of bandwidth .

 

You're just another person complaining because they are too lazy to get gear. Get over it. This is an MMO, if you want to play a game solely based on skill go play an FPS. However, even those these days have an experience system where certain upgrades are given based on achievements unlocked or time played so you probably still won't be happy. Nothing in this world is fair, either keep up or leave.

[DimeStax]

WAAAAAAAAH! I get killed by people better geared than me in an MMO! WAAAAAAAH! I'm gonna go on the forums and rage about it! WAAAAAAAAAH!

 

You're talking about scrapping gear from an MMO which is talking about scrapping the fundamental core concept of EVERY MMO: the progression of a character through itemization. You people whining need to move on to another type of game because all MMO's are this way.

Edited January 30, 2012 by DimeStax

[Pwny_Express]

WAAAAAAAAH! I get killed by people better geared than me in an MMO! WAAAAAAAH! I'm gonna go on the forums and rage about it! WAAAAAAAAAH!

 

You're talking about scrapping gear from an MMO which is talking about scrapping the root fundamental core of an MMO... progression of a character through itemization. You people whining need to move on to another type of game because all MMO's are this way.

 

 

They needn't be. They just are because no company is brave enough to try something different. "Because everyone else does it," isn't necessarily a good argument in favor of this type of gear system.

[DimeStax]

Like I said, even FPS games are moving toward experience based systems. If you have an idea for a new type of game and know how to implement it, go design it and stop asking someone else to do your work for you.

[Parrothead]

Expertise is not the root of the problem, it is merely a symptom.

 

The real problem is that there is no PvP. What we have is CvC (Character versus Character) where stats determine the outcome. Some moron at some other MMO company some time in the past decided that the best way to make a PvP system was to take their current PvE system and let the characters fight each other. Then another moron decided that system didn't work very well so they felt the best way to fix their broken "PvE pretending to be PvP" system was to add more PvE to it (in the form of a "PvP stat"). Now everyone copies that method because it is easier than changing it, plus most gamers have been conditioned into believing that PvP Progression is a good thing.

 

If you want a true PvP game in your MMO, you need to realize that there cannot be any aspect of PvE in the PvP. No character can be inherently better than any other character of the same class, and that while filling thier role, every class cannot be better than any other class. When the outcome is determined solely by player skill and all stats (and other PvE elements) are completely removed, only then will you have PvP.

 

This is a good post.

[DimeStax]

I don't know what kind of game you guys want, but it's not anywhere near to an MMORPG type game. Pacman is <~~~~ way.

[DosPeros]

WAAAAAAAAH! I get killed by people better geared than me in an MMO! WAAAAAAAH! I'm gonna go on the forums and rage about it! WAAAAAAAAAH!

 

You're talking about scrapping gear from an MMO which is talking about scrapping the fundamental core concept of EVERY MMO: the progression of a character through itemization. You people whining need to move on to another type of game because all MMO's are this way.

 

I often feel people are taking these types of discussions personally. I understand that you may feel it is just the way it is and deal with it so you wish everyone else would shut up, but I think many of us realize that the game will die without a diverse community of players.

 

I am still trying to get my head around why people feel it is so necessary to have PVE specific gear and PVP Specific gear. If both paths get you to the same type of gear what does it matter which route you took to get there? I have yet to hear any argument which supports these divergent paths?

 

Conceptually even a fantasy world should have an internal logic which is constant within itself. PVE/PVP are different games because of the style of play but should not be different because the laws of physics are different in one place from another.

 

A great PVE'er will most likely get owned by a great PVP'er in 1v1. Whether each is armed with plastic spoons or battlemaster gear. This is the same as playing against the computer in chess.

 

Gear is a commodity. Certain commodities have positive benefits that are suppose to enhance a characters abilities and to some degree offset a players short comings. But the biggest factor in success at any of the options should be the innate abilities of the player to choose and use their in game acquired skills and abilities at the right time.

[xxdragonragexx]

Geeze another person who do not understand the difference between expertise and gear progression.

[Xinika]

Dear developers,

 

Ive played PvP in Dark Age of Camelot, Warhammer Online and Age of Conan and the truth is, Expertise probably is the worst implementation of PvP Progress ever.

 

Expertise is the reason my class (operative) and smugglers are in the process of being nerfed hard, without any compensation.

 

10K Crits? On who? By whom? In PvE with 50 and decent gear I hit lower level weak mobs with maybe 3.3 K damage (with player buffs, no stims) with my opener as it is.

Overpowered? how? I mean afterwards my damage is mediocre, and my survivability is laughable.

 

So, now with zero competence, I enter PvP and get roflstomped by people who farmed themself to rank 60 and run 700 or so expertise.

 

I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead

 

Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage.

 

So yeah, a player spending time to rank up in pvp should have an advantage over a fresh level 50 without any ranks. But not by that margin. We are not talking about 20 or 30% more power, we talk about 100 or more percent in comparison (zero expertise versus full).

 

So what is the reasoning for this? There is none and the level 50 bracket does not help, unless you add pvp-rank based brackets in addition. Which is a lame excuse for balance.

 

Better would be to get rid of expertise and instead add an DAoC/WAR like Realm Ability system or an alternative skill tree to spec with pvp skill points like AoC. Allow for small boost to the characters stats, maybe allow new skills or additions to the class, but not or never simply apply such a boost to raw damage, mitigation or healing like that.

 

As it is now, a fresh 50 has to go through hours of pain, of being farmed, slaughtered and being mostly useless by all those rank 60 people.

 

my .2 credits

 

No.

/2char

[KingEoj]

The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. No, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive.

 

i started a thread on this, and its getting blindsided by misinformed/ignorant people who think that the pvp gear is so great.