Reverse Engineering isn't the answer for discoveries

[Mistress-Rarity]

And I can't figure out why this was included in the first place.

 

Crafting is two-fold. To provide yourself and others with items and/or make a profit. Destroying items you create does not make the items rarer, it just makes artisans more frustrated.

 

The Crafting system in this game is so RNG based that the last thing we need is people destroying perfectly good product for what.. A chance? It's non-sensical. Discoveries should be made when you create the product not by destroying the product. The result would drive people to create more items, and thus add more product to the Galactic Trade Market, more variety, and a more stable economy. It would also encourage people to craft more items in the low and mid-tiers.

 

Destroying products to give you the magical blue recipe makes no sense. There is no return investment, except a very small amount of materials you put into the product (Which is also RNG based), leaving you in this perpetual circle of crafting, reverse engineering, and crafting just to unlock a recipe.

 

Having that middle step is redundant and wastes effort, enforcing this "Mantra" that "Crafting is useless until 400" (Except for biochemists); and as of right now it is. Crafting is already overshadowed by Flash Points, Commendation vendors, etc. Why punish crafters more by asking them to destroy product that they spent a lot of time and effort in making?

 

Shouldn't we be encouraging people to distribute their product? Not the other way around!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Mistress-Rarity

[SamuraBob_Fl]

You end making a lot of excess product leveling crafting. With everyone making 20 Might Hilt 8's, they'd be almost worthless.

 

Reverse engineering lets you get some mats back and maybe a better recipe. I like system anyway, it's more interesting than buying recipes from a trainer.

[Mistress-Rarity]

Yes, but that excess product could go into the GTM. I don't know about you, but my GTM is dead to everyone except 50s. This isn't an economy. It's just plain wrong.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Yes, but that excess product could go into the GTM. I don't know about you, but my GTM is dead to everyone except 50s. This isn't an economy. It's just plain wrong.

 

That's fine.

 

My point is that the mats I get reverse engineering are likely worth to me than the ridiculously low return I'd get selling the items.

 

You actually can make money selling low level purples though.

[Mistress-Rarity]

That's fine.

 

My point is that the mats I get reverse engineering are likely worth to me than the ridiculously low return I'd get selling the items.

 

You actually can make money selling low level purples though.

 

This whole comment makes me want to face palm. It's like you want to condemn low level players to torment because they aren't level 50 and therefore don't have any product they can buy. The reason purples DO sell so well at low levels is because they're rarer than Spectral Tigers. Virtually nobody sells them because there's not a lot of reason to.

[Minguss]

Unless you can craft the best items that players want it will always be broken. There is nothing to aspire to when the best thing you or any number of people together can make is still not as good as an item they can get elsewhere . It can be an almost immpossible task, super-rare, take massive groups, whatever..

 

The best items should be made by a collaberation of combat and crafting players or there is no crafting system. Its a dliance, a hoby, a deviation from the exciting world of shoot this and click that into the worrd of pay this, craft that, now destroy it in the hopes you can make something better (or afford to) before you have grown out of it of find something better.

 

How many people had jetpacks in SWG for the first year or two? RIS armor? Bounty Hunter armor, for crist sakes Mando armor was impossible to make without the best combat people and the best crafters! This sytem is a joke compared to sytems designed 10+ years ago that had simplicity as well complexity.

 

My only regret is that i payed for 6 months and a CE box to put next to my Conan one on the shelf...

[SamuraBob_Fl]

This whole comment makes me want to face palm. It's like you want to condemn low level players to torment because they aren't level 50 and therefore don't have any product they can buy. The reason purples DO sell so well at low levels is because they're rarer than Spectral Tigers. Virtually nobody sells them because there's not a lot of reason to.

 

No, I don't see it that way at all.

 

Staying in good gear leveling was pretty easy. I got oranges as quest rewards, and then used quest rewards and commendations to keep them in updated mods. I didn't see any particular to look to the GTN for gear while leveling.

[iResist]

I personally LOVE the reverse engineering as it is!

 

You don't get as many people flooding the GTN with their crafts, making the stuff you DO put on their more VALUABLE!

 

I make purple level 25 implants for a good profit.

 

The crafting in this game is the best crafting I've played in any game to date. It is not too complex and not too simplistic. In other games, I can never be bothered to try crafting because it's just a chore even when the system is simplistic, but with this system I can have my companions do the chores for me!

Edited January 26, 2012 by iResist

[JCommando]

I find it annoying that I must have spent over two hours trying to learn an epic recipe for a red crit crystal for ME to use and my friend who just got to 400 crafting got 2 blue recipes and 1 epic one without even trying.

 

RNG is ridiculous.

[Mistress-Rarity]

I find it annoying that I must have spent over two hours trying to learn an epic recipe for a red crit crystal for ME to use and my friend who just got to 400 crafting got 2 blue recipes and 1 epic one without even trying.

 

RNG is ridiculous.

 

That's an entirely different issue, but one that needs to be looked at. AT least if you make product, you don't feel so burned because you can sell that product on the GTM. You can still Reverse Engineer it if you want some materials back, but finding the recipe would not longer REQUIRE you to RE it.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Mistress-Rarity

[Mannic]

It actually works out almost perfectly because to skill up a craft you invariably will run out of mats, and you're going to have to do some RE anyway. If you don't want to "waste" mats to get the epic recipes, don't. The epics are not meant to be easy to get and, IMO, as it is now they are far too easy to obtain. Personally, I'd prefer them to be the kind of thing that only a dozen or so people on a server have rather than something every crafter can have if they just do the grind.

[Dharst]

I don't mind the Reverse Engineering... to a point, but then I've also wasted a whole stacks of mats that took me 4 hours and 10K in missions to collect- made 22 greens, RE them all, and never got the blue recipe... and I haven't bothered to craft again since. Hell, I don't even play that level 23 toon.

 

Throw up my hands and to hell with it. It's too much effort to have nothing to show... and/or my luck really is that bad and I'm better off quiting now.

 

As someone mentioned earlier- my biggest regret is I paid for 3 months in advance... and I'm only 4 days into that time.

[iResist]

I don't mind the Reverse Engineering... to a point, but then I've also wasted a whole stacks of mats that took me 4 hours and 10K in missions to collect- made 22 greens, RE them all, and never got the blue recipe... and I haven't bothered to craft again since. Hell, I don't even play that level 23 toon.

 

Throw up my hands and to hell with it. It's too much effort to have nothing to show... and/or my luck really is that bad and I'm better off quiting now.

 

As someone mentioned earlier- my biggest regret is I paid for 3 months in advance... and I'm only 4 days into that time.

 

The way I look at it, if money is an issue for trying to RE stuff, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place and only RE stuff that you use just to level your crafting, don't try to go for a specific schematic unless money is not an issue.

 

 

If you approach it from that direction, you will have no trouble.

Edited January 26, 2012 by iResist

[Lokai]

while i dont totally disagree with OP system does feel unique which is good, and can actually MAKE epics from get go. I think my major gripe is and especially early on have like boots belt which are like say level 9 then gloves are 11, and gradually goes up issue is that by time can wear robe/pants of that crafted set belt bracers ect are worthless...

 

That said are alot of RNG systems people just hate in this game and crafting 30 items and getting no proc is just an example of this. Should be a SURE fire way to get items, and patterns and settle for patterns in commendation venders for all the procs so if i was unlucky i could blow commendations on schematics in general.

 

But larger issue is that for time and cash spent on most of epic items can craft its usually not worth the effort... because quest gear is either very close or better in some cases. Add to it that reason MOST of us took armor and weapon smiths was unique looking moddable items is pretty much non-existant. At level 50 i have... maybe 1 low level orange item, and 2 parts per armor type of a level 50 set and rest of that set is blue so i cant even make full modable armor sets like i hoped...

 

Crafting system has alot of issues for me and while i love crafting... main reason i rolled syntheweave is pretty much void atm because of lack of modable sets. Also why cant we break down all items we find? i mean are tons of items that are force user related that i can't break for materials! why? clearly some early ones we can so why not later ones? would vastly improve my ability to skill my craft and not waste all those greens!

 

Additionally why cant we reverse engineer orange modable gear we have and gain ability to craft those items(not on a proc a 100% chance) that way we could see those on GTN! also why does modable gear with 0 mods have a level requirement? thats just...makes...no...sense! >< !?! so many gripes with it!

[LeonBraun]

You end making a lot of excess product leveling crafting. With everyone making 20 Might Hilt 8's, they'd be almost worthless.

 

Reverse engineering lets you get some mats back and maybe a better recipe. I like system anyway, it's more interesting than buying recipes from a trainer.

 

This is exactly the right answer... I never have to vendor stuff and get mats back while I level... It's a good system.

[Pink_Saber]

Sometimes you get your recipe fast, and sometimes you get it slow... but it evens out. That's the nature of an RNG-based system. It's pretty cool when you get it fast, but in any case, on average, it'd work out exactly the same.

 

There's no real gain to be had in a fixed system... you'd trade the possibility of getting a recipe faster than possible for... what? Making everything average? Making all discoveries exactly the same?

 

I'm not seeing the fun in that at all.

 

Removing the RNG won't make your average time-to-discovery any shorter, and I think that's really what's at the bottom of all this. People seem to want their rewards handed to them sooner, every time. I can't say I'm willing to get behind that.

 

I mean, what else could it be? It's pretty simple math to figure out that, over time, it all works out evenly. Let it be a little unpredictable. It won't kill you.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

OP has some good points.

 

The problem with reverse engineering, or "transmuting" (as the idea was originally stolen from), is that it is essentially an end game trade skill tactic that was used in previous mmos to give max level crafters additional items craft, and to make more powerful weapons and armor as the game progressed beyond the limits of standard crafting. In this way, RE works. Especially if one is stuck at 400 and needs to RE products for materials to use in making more powerful items.

 

The discovery system is indeed, pointless. I would reverse engineer the item for the mats alone. Especially since sending my companions out takes forever, and there is no guarantee of success. Why harvesting nodes for product and rares was partially removed, I do not know. I also have no idea why there are such huge variances in node levels. They should progress appropriately with one's level. Anyway, back to the point. Discovery of schematics should be available on the creation of an item and not on the destruction of one. The OP has a legit point there.

 

As far as the TradeNet goes and developing the issue with item flood, blah blah blah, it has nothing to do with reverse engineering. It has everything to do with crafting being absolutely worthless and one's ability to get everything they need via questing and dailies.

 

The crafting system in this game is neither fun or working appropriately. It is broken.

 

Discovering recipes, trying different combines, being able to use crafting stations YOURSELF, and participating in the crafting process as a mini game, are all additions that should have been addressed. Because now, we have level fifty characters and four hundred level crafters standing around with their thumbs up their holes, waiting for companions to return and craft. What is there to do? In other games, I at least had the option to hit hotkeys and counter things in the crafting process. I'm not saying that should be required. Not everyone wants to stand around and push buttons, but if one wants to do it at a crafting station as an alternative to waiting an hour for companions, I have no idea why one shouldn't be allowed to do so. It was obviously intended that way, especially in beta, because there were crafting and mod stations everywhere. Guess BW didn't have enough time (laughable) to implement it?

 

Anyway, if the TradeNet ever starts working correctly, it would be nice to see a more player driven driven economy with crafting than a daily/flashpoint/op/raid incentive. In some games I've played, there are actually epic crafting raids one can do. Look to EverQuest 2. There are thousands of players who, honest to god, resubbed to use that crafting system and to decorate their homes. No lie.

 

Good day, and may god have mercy on your souls.

[iResist]

The crafting system in this game is neither fun or working appropriately. It is broken.

 

.

 

That is just your opinion, I and most people I know think it's fun and like it.

[Guanthwei]

What does RNG mean?

[Daedricshots]

You do realize that in reality science and engineering learn how things work and improve on designs by *Gasp* reverse engineering it. Not by random creation are they enlightened on better designs.

[daemian]

I haven't had a problem with it.

 

I've ended up with enough surplus products even at low levels to more than supplement the costs of reverse engineering, provide me and my companions and leave me with a profit.

 

Additionally, the process of reverse engineering is enough to act as a barrier to more casual crafters, providing those who do pursue it fully with a reward for their effort. In my opinion.

 

It may not seem worth it at the end game (don't know, I'm not there yet), but there are a lot of people between level 1 and 50 who seem to be buying what I make.

[Mentocs]

What does RNG mean?

 

Random Number Generator

[TiiRahnedancer]

I've been making credits from my armor and artifice crafts. Blue recipes don't take that long to get usually. Purples can take a little while for me to learn due to the time and money it takes to farm the mats for blues to RE.

 

I feel like it's worth the time and money investment to get the purples though as they nearly always sell. I don't really make money off of greens, even if they are exceptional. So for that reason alone I like the RE system as it is. I get crafting xp, some mats back, and a chance to learn a better recipe off of junk that likely won't sell.

 

Anyway, those two characters are only in their mid 30's and still making credit at the GTN from their crafts. Maybe it's the servers I'm on? I did notice that on one server I don't get as many sales on the Republic GTN. Probably due to Imp/Rep population imbalance.

Edited January 26, 2012 by TiiRahnedancer