The true problems with sorcs/sages(from a sage)

[ArchAUstin]

I can tell you right now the biggest problem with the sorc/sage class is the hybrid spec potential.

 

Telekinetic spec offers good utility needed for the TK playstyle, the Root on the knockback, needed if you have 2-3 second casts, Force lift cooldown reduced, with longer lockout and increased shield all good if you are Telekeninetics spec.

 

Now that being said if you aren't TK spec you don't need all that utility.....

 

Balance offers some good utility as well, Lightning ticks make your next spell instant cast, force lift can stun, reduced CD on your main stun.

 

Thing is all of these utility talents are so LOW into the trees.

 

This is why you have people complaining that sorcs are SO OP because every sorc has ALLL of this utility, the utility designed for Telekinetics spec and the Utility designed for Balance spec into 1 hybrid that also deals MORE damage than any other class in the game....

 

So essentially what you have are sorcs with absurd utility combined with absurd damage and no other class comes close to being as good.

 

They are light years ahead of pre 1.1.1 Ops.

[ArchAUstin]

This is the reason sage/sorc is bar none the MOST played class in the game, nothing else even comes close to the sage/sorc population.

[KindBudhArsh]

athough i agree, i dont agree that Sorc/Sages are overplayed by ppl, its more ike the Assassin/Shadow are who i see everywhere left and right...

[onethreeone]

I disagree. As a sorc, I was hitting Top 3-5 every game starting at level 14 when I got sprint (and some even before that). It's not the talents that make them powerful, it's the DPS + interrupts + heals + shield.

 

Maybe Battlemasters will disagree with me, but at least in the 10-49 brackets, Sorcs are only so strong because they're balanced for team play and not solo play.

[ArchAUstin]

They aren't balance at all, BW gave them every tool in the game and also made their damage absurd.

 

While on the other hand making my lvl 50 scoundrel completely USELESS.

 

So now i have to grind up a sage so I can actually be viable in pvp.

 

He is almost 43 though.

[Felioats]

A bigger problem I think is that there's no distinction between the Telekinetics and Balance trees (Sage). There are skills in each that affect the same abilities, even. Neither tree has any particular theme.

 

It's just a design failing, in my opinion.

[Bhorzo]

They aren't balance at all, BW gave them every tool in the game and also made their damage absurd.

 

While on the other hand making my lvl 50 scoundrel completely USELESS.

 

So now i have to grind up a sage so I can actually be viable in pvp.

 

He is almost 43 though.

 

Don't worry, by the time you hit 50, they'll get nerfed. Then you can try to roll the next FOTM class...

[AureanAvra]

There is definitely a difference between Telekinetic/Lightning and Balance/Madness. The real problem is Telekinetic/Lightning just an awful spec to into purely. It has no mobility and basically requires subspecing at least 16 points into Balance/Madness to be successful. Since that is pretty much the defining ability of that tree it makes both specs seem the same.

[Caelrie]

And the war on utility continues...

 

Someday I might understand why MMO players hate utility so much and are so happy only being able to do one narrow little thing.

[staysa]

How can you even tell balance at this point with how many terrible players populate the game? I have yet to play a game with a worse playerbase, skillwise.

[Valketh]

^^

Your epeen is a grand and shining beacon to all the lowly noobs who gaze at you from afar. One could only dream of aspiring to learn the methods of your greatness.

[wombolombograss]

I think the supposed lack of player skill is a GOOD thing at this point in the game. In my opinion it's not because ToR is a difficult MMO to grasp ( as an 3+ year WoW player I picked this game up quickly, but I'm sure I'm missing tweeks and rotation stuff) but rather ToR is attracting new MMO players. that's GREAT! sure there will be some growing pains, but this is not necessarily a race. the PvE stuff is reasonable that I've seen, the PvP is cruel and mean ( Altho i'm horrible at PvE and get schooled in every MMO I play) and the Heroics seem pretty WoWish. Give it time and the player skill will balance out.

And to stay on thread my Sage can do a dozen dirty things to my scoundral before breaking a sweat, but Scoundral is a class that's gonna take finesse. My Sage is a 2 button wonder pretty much, and he's not even 20 yet. My Scoundral has to work for a living and that makes combat a lot more lively.

[Kikkelipoika]

The problem isn't the fact that sorcerers get a lot of utility, the problem is that other classes don't. It's incredibly boring to play a class that doesn't have any tools to build his victory with; like Knights/Warriors. Especially if you're Rage/Focus specced and all your utility is tied to your dps rotation, making the class incredibly inflexible and frustrating to play.

 

The solution to imbalance shouldn't automatically be nerfing, since that only makes classes more boring to play. Try instead to make the other classes competitive.

[Archaegeo]

The point is that sages are well balanced for the game. That doesnt mean break them, but add things as necessary to make other classes more balanced.

 

However, a lot of times the other classes really arent unbalanced, but just not being played well.

 

I get a good operative on me, im dead, same for a trooper healer, i just cant take him down if he knows his class well.

[Skuldar]

Sorcs/Sages are squishy. That's why they have all that utility. They need it to balance how vulnerable they are. For instance, Mercs have much of the same utility and have heavy armor, but they lack interrupts. Operatives have medium armor and stealth, but their 60 sec CC can only be applied before combat. Look at every class that has tons of utility and you'll see a glaring comparative weakness that helps balance it.

 

That is not to say that the combined utility for all classes is equal when applied to PvE or PvP. There will always be slight advantages in certain situations for certain classes with certain specs; I don't see how you'd ever balance away all possibilities of that. Part of the problem with the upcoming Operative/Scoundrel nerf is that it addresses a very situational problematic advantage but affects many more situations faced by those classes. The class as a whole will be weaker just because they were a little too good in some specific situations. This is one reason I would like to see more disconnect between PvE and PvP rulesets, so they could tweak problems in one area without diminishing needed capability in the other.

[genesiser]

Sorcs/Sages are squishy. That's why they have all that utility. They need it to balance how vulnerable they are. For instance, Mercs have much of the same utility and have heavy armor, but they lack interrupts. Operatives have medium armor and stealth, but their 60 sec CC can only be applied before combat. Look at every class that has tons of utility and you'll see a glaring comparative weakness that helps balance it.

 

That is not to say that the combined utility for all classes is equal when applied to PvE or PvP. There will always be slight advantages in certain situations for certain classes with certain specs; I don't see how you'd ever balance away all possibilities of that. Part of the problem with the upcoming Operative/Scoundrel nerf is that it addresses a very situational problematic advantage but affects many more situations faced by those classes. The class as a whole will be weaker just because they were a little too good in some specific situations. This is one reason I would like to see more disconnect between PvE and PvP rulesets, so they could tweak problems in one area without diminishing needed capability in the other.

 

The problem with your argument is the bubble they get.

 

1 bubble more than makes up the armor difference of trooper vs sage with the amount of damage absorbed. Plus, with all their utility they also get an escape move via force sprint. Also, in case you weren't aware... Troopers do get an interrupt, just not the commando advanced class.

 

I'm not hating on sages, I just want an interrupt on my commando trooper.

[urborror]

The bubbles turned the tides in many a battle I oversaw. The bubbles are awesome.

 

I went halfway up the left (healing) and right trees, being unconcerned with endgame stuff, and it seems like a excellent hybrid strategy/class. I lacked the AoE heal, but other Sorc healing tree perks seem so weak as to be a joke (I wouldn't have taken '1% less health used by consumption' if it was 10%, even 20.) It was almost like they nerfed the sorc healing tree since the sorc is so powerful to begin with.

 

Otherwise my healing was robust while I had instant CCing and no cooldown on force lightning.

[Velr]

With my (concealment) OP i tend to favor dieing over healing me from nearly 0% to 100%....

 

It's faster.

OP healing is so terrible when not specced... And it should be like that for all "healers" that don't specc heal.

[Skuldar]

The problem with your argument is the bubble they get.

 

There's no doubt that bubble is powerful, but it costs Force and isn't up constantly like heavy armor is. I think it helps balance the squishiness of the class, but I can see how some (especially those focused on PvP) might see it as too strong given everything else available to the class.

 

My focus is on PvE, so I'd hate to lose that bubble because it has saved me from many a questing disaster and helps make up for the armor deficit tanking companions are saddled with. That bubble is sometimes all that keeps me from being relegated to a chain-healing fool while my companion slowly chips away for five minutes.

[Talsyrius]

↑Sage heal is terrible when you arn't speced in it too, fyi.

[MagizZziaN]

The problem with your argument is the bubble they get.

 

1 bubble more than makes up the armor difference of trooper vs sage with the amount of damage absorbed. Plus, with all their utility they also get an escape move via force sprint. Also, in case you weren't aware... Troopers do get an interrupt, just not the commando advanced class.

 

I'm not hating on sages, I just want an interrupt on my commando trooper.

 

That buble only takes top 1.5k dmg. And then im really generous. So ur point in this is pretty much invalid. Its just another utility to save ur ***. Troopers have heavy armor, sage/sorc light. Honestly you troopers are allready having an advantage. They should make other classes more competitive, instead of nerfing classes that aint really broken. Just not played well mostly.

 

If they keep nerfing classes, then im out of here so fast. I hated WoW for it. And im not going back in that endless cycle of screwing over a good game.

 

I love it here bioware, so please dont f*ck this game up...

[Karenai]

I can tell you right now the biggest problem with the sorc/sage class is the hybrid spec potential.

 

Telekinetic spec offers good utility needed for the TK playstyle, the Root on the knockback, needed if you have 2-3 second casts, Force lift cooldown reduced, with longer lockout and increased shield all good if you are Telekeninetics spec.

 

Now that being said if you aren't TK spec you don't need all that utility.....

 

Balance offers some good utility as well, Lightning ticks make your next spell instant cast, force lift can stun, reduced CD on your main stun.

 

Thing is all of these utility talents are so LOW into the trees.

 

This is why you have people complaining that sorcs are SO OP because every sorc has ALLL of this utility, the utility designed for Telekinetics spec and the Utility designed for Balance spec into 1 hybrid that also deals MORE damage than any other class in the game....

 

So essentially what you have are sorcs with absurd utility combined with absurd damage and no other class comes close to being as good.

 

They are light years ahead of pre 1.1.1 Ops.

 

I am a hybrid sage. You are complaining about all this cool cc, because it is low in the trees.

Well let me tell you something: We do not spec all that cc.

It would be stupid and beside the point to put points into "all those great cc".

Why? Because those points are needed elswhere and are not so great either. It would gimp our damage way to bad.

 

I do not know what kind of "hybrids" you are meeting.

 

The only thing very much OP and very much needed, to even have the slightest chance vs. someone who is not a brain amputee is our shild. We are very, very squishy so we need it, but if you, like me, start to spam it on your team it is godly.

 

PS. dou you even know our cc? These skillpoints you mention are crap. 15sec cooldown on a 1min cooldown, for a cc that EVERYONE breaks. A cc that breaks from dots, from looking funny at the target. A cc that has a 2sec casttime.

10sec cooldown an a 1min cooldown stun, yeah...which holds up to 4sec and fills up the resolve bar to full.

2sec stun an a one minute cooldown cc, which makes it a 2sec stun, if the target had no cc whatsoever prior to that.

 

You want to talk about utility? Talk about meele stuns which stun you even with a full resolve bar. Talk about beeing stuck because some crazy lightsaber dude is jumping at you for what feels like seconds and stuns you right after that fnishing with several 5k+hits. Talk about meeles goining imune at 5% hp runing half the map to heal up. Talk about vanishing at 5% losing all dots and beeing imune to aoe. Talk about inivisible bomb defusing and planting. Talk about getting kicked or pulled into the green stuff in the pit, while your aoe kick has a huge delay and kicks what feels like half a meter.

Talk about cast delay for reps.

 

All that big numbers at the end of the match? Hover with you mouse over my damage. Biggest hit 3500 and that's if I am lucky and get my 3sec cast with all procs and every stim/trinket on a fresh lvl 50 target. Than hover over your damage with your 6k+hit or more.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Karenai

[slonep]

Can we all agree that there is an overpopulation of posts like this in the forums?

 

I have a lvl 46 Sorc. I play PVP. I consider myself to be a slightly above average PVPer. I get wasted all the time by good players. I waste bad players all the time. I don't see and overpopulation of hybrid spec Sorcs. It seems to me that there are a bunch of different classes that have a bunch of different skills, some are powerful skills, some are not. You have to play smarter sometimes instead of saying the class is OPed. Try an interupt. Try teaming up on a guy. Where's the proof of this? Where are the Youtube vids of lvl 30 Sorcs/Sages laying waste to lvl 45 toons in warzones? I do well in PVP cause I play my *** off! I use every trick in my bag to make sure I win and that's how it should be.

 

Here's the situational mistake I see players make against me in PVP all the time....

 

If you like the mystery of why you're getting wasted by Sorc/Sages all the time read no further.

 

I'm on the edge of the battle. I cast Crushing Darkness, Affliction, and Death Field on you as you're attacking my teammate. You're already at 90% health. You then start your attacks on me. I interrupt your main skill, which you most likely lead with, and proceed to FL you to death because my DOTs have already got you down to 50% health and one of my teammates has also targeted you. You die. "GD Sorcs are overpowered" I see in /general. So you attacked me after I blindsided you (not a Sorc specific ability) and tried to rush me at 50%ish HP while my teammate and I destroy you and because my main DPS ability has a big flashy light it's my classes fault for being OP...

 

Similarly let me explain a situation I find myself in quite a bit. I'm running though a WZ. Suddenly I'm stunned by a stealthed Operative. I'm bubbled so that'll help a bit... I wait out the first stun and it lifts as I'm at 75% health. I pop a heal, stim, and both my relics. I'm stunned again. I can't break cause even though I thought it might my cool down from hasn't finished from the last time the Operative wasted me. Another enemy player joins in the fun. I’m stunned again. I die.

 

These are normal PVP interactions. There’s nothing OP’d about them. You shouldn’t be able to take out any character when you start your assault from a position of weakness.

 

If you're looking to spam two buttons all day and are under the impression that as you lvl up those two buttons should just get better and better until those two buttons are the best at whatever class abilities those buttons are used with... that's just not how MMOs are anymore. This is a modern MMO. Play more. Read more. Level up. Gear up. Try to have fun.

Edited January 27, 2012 by slonep

[genesiser]

That buble only takes top 1.5k dmg. And then im really generous. So ur point in this is pretty much invalid. Its just another utility to save ur ***. Troopers have heavy armor, sage/sorc light. Honestly you troopers are allready having an advantage. They should make other classes more competitive, instead of nerfing classes that aint really broken. Just not played well mostly.

 

If they keep nerfing classes, then im out of here so fast. I hated WoW for it. And im not going back in that endless cycle of screwing over a good game.

 

I love it here bioware, so please dont f*ck this game up...

 

A sage in epic gear will have about 16% dmg reduction, a trooper will have about 28% dmg reduction (unless in tank spec). The bubble absorbs around 2.5k, not 1.5k. The trooper takes an average of 12% less dmg per hit. Say people are hitting for 2k, it'll take about 12 hits taken to equal the amount the bubble absorbs.

 

So no, my argument isn't invalid.

[Leiloni]

A sage in epic gear will have about 16% dmg reduction, a trooper will have about 28% dmg reduction (unless in tank spec). The bubble absorbs around 2.5k, not 1.5k. The trooper takes an average of 12% less dmg per hit. Say people are hitting for 2k, it'll take about 12 hits taken to equal the amount the bubble absorbs.

 

So no, my argument isn't invalid.

 

Well I don't know where you got that 12 hits calculation from but I can tell you from playing both that the bubble is not as great in reality as it looks like on paper. Especially when you're stunned/cced while people beat right through your bubble. Then you're left with no bubble and a debuff so you can't reapply it and you go down fast because you're in paper armor. Merc on the other hand can withstand a lot of beating all the time and isn't reliant on a CD to do it.