Hardmode Flashpoints; No loot variance for premade groups

[DaveMcG]

We did the two normal mode raids tonight so no updates from my crew..

 

Any more reports out there?

[kamhul]

Arround 40 HMs done here , i have seen consular drop ONCE , arround 25+ commando/BH loot , around 10 smuggler loot and around 5 times Jedi knigth loot.

 

PLZ do it in a way we can get tokens or anything , its sad to do 7 straigth HMs and see the trooper loot in every of them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by kamhul

[kamhul]

By the way the loot system its not done to be 25% drop chance for a class , thats obvious, everybody is complaining about it. SO please Fix it or change it as soon as possible.

[GeckoOBac]

Huge amount of runs through all the FPs (even Kaon) with a premade group, with almost no variation in composition.

 

Commando, Sentinel, Vanguard and Sage. Drops are mostly Smuggler gear (though not exclusively, but the ratio is quite high for smuggler).

 

The one time we switched the Sentinel for a Gunslinger we received mostly Jedi Knight gear.

 

 

Note that this issue doesn't seem to apply to Operations, since our raid ALSO lacks smugglers, but I've seen no smuggler tiered gear that I remember of.

Edited January 26, 2012 by GeckoOBac

[Kormah]

I've run about 10 HM's run in the last week. about 9 of those were with my guild and we only have 2-3 people that are static. The main instance I have run is HM BT with one HM Boarding Party.

 

The most I've run is with Two inquisitors (assassin/heals) a imperial agent and a Sith Warrior. When we run this set up only BH (aim) gear drops. We switched out the sith warrior (med/heavy str gear) and imperial agent for Bounty Hunters and then sith warrior gear drops.

 

Its frustrating because I have not gotten one piece of gear and with the commendations the way they are I dont expect to see another piece of gear until a month after I hit 50.

 

I've already canceled my subscription not specifically over this but it was the cherry on the cake so to speak.

[ironwillaa]

Our guild runs a premade group of 4 in HMs and have done probably 10+ runs in the last week. I'd say literally 80% of our loot drops are for AIM/END gear (for BH Tanks) and WE DONT HAVE A BH in the group. I swear there is mis placed number somewhere and it always is rolling a high chance for the one class you don't bring with you. We run with Sith Juggernaut (Tank), sith warrior (dps), imperial operative (heals), sith sorceror (DPS).

[Ace_In_The_Hole]

From what I have read on here it looks like the RNG is probably seeded so it drops for a class that isn't present. That isn't necessarily a bug. It is most likely so everyone isn't running around in full Tiered PvE gear a couple days after they hit 50. As for groups with one of each I haven't ran one of those so I have no idea.

[Sykomyke]

You are ignoring our point; therefore, you are trolling.

 

The point is not if this is possible. Yes, it is possible.

 

The point is that it is extremely unlikely for one group to see this, let alone ~15. I am trying to bring this to the dev's attention so they can see if there is *GASP* a bug that is causing premade groups to see less than random results due to the seed being affected somehow.

 

Is that clear?

 

He isn't ignoring your points. He has accepted them, someone disagreeing with your or requiring you to provide the burden of proof (which is upon you because YOU brought up the theory that you believed RNG was broken) does not make them a troll. If you are that narrow-minded that you think anyone disagreeing with you is a troll I highly suggest you review your definition of reality; or by extension go review what a debate actually means, because you simply aren't living in it.

 

What you both are agreeing on is that it's *improbable* that a string of loot would exist, but it's theoretically possible to exist.

 

What YOU are stating is that it's impossible that a string of loot like this should exist if it was truly random; which you cannot prove. Like the other guy said: You are shooting yourself in the foot because by all definitions you need to mathematically prove that it's impossible, which you cannot do. You can only do this if you see the RNG method.

 

Now, I'm not saying that RNG can be manipulated by player input/actions: (See: Golden Sun RNG Method) but I would really hope that the developers didn't make a system so easily exploitable/broken.

 

Your argument is cyclical at best, the only thing you can do is /bug it in-game and hope it draws some developers attention to take a look at it to ensure it's working as intended. Until then, you have to assume it's working as intended ESPECIALLY since people have stated they have gotten random loot as well.

 

People complain about the PVP RNG method as well: I've opened well over 40 Champion Bags and I've yet to receive a Headgear or Footwear slot item; though I've received 3 chests, 4 pairs of gloves, and 3 pants.

[Crawfishies]

Well, half the time I run with my friends (which we have only 5 total),

and yet BH stuff drops more than any freaking thing and he's a healer,

so the whole who has a highest dps stuff is out the door.

 

And we get a mix of things so the RNG is working, to an extent,

but we do get a lot of freaking Inquistor drops, which none of us are.

 

-----

Now for a scary side note on marauder (also on marauder forum) drops.

HM FP, excluding the end boss columi set drops "please",

there are absolutely zero, i mean "0" drops seen for medium armor for

marauders seen by us marauders

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=223842&page=4

Either that is a screwup or the RNG isn't RNG.

 

RNG working? how about 23 straight Champion bags = 0 items, yes ZERO.

[GeckoOBac]

The nature of RNG means they can get very long streaks of identical results. Though in some fields this means it's a crappy RNG (as in cryptography), it still does not mean it's not random.

 

That said, the high number of instances so fare suggest that there's the possibility that indeed something is afoot, either by intent or by bug. Reporting this so the devs can give us a definite answer is the best thing to do.

[Darkschnyder]

I can agree with Gecko's previous post. As a jugg I normally run with a sniper and sorc with a pug dps and out of our 3/4 premade its usually bounty hunter gear that drops. Our pugs mainly consist of the inquisitor classes since that seems to be the flavor of the month on fatman imperial which would support the idea that gear has a higher percentage to drop for the class you are missing

[Shalala]

I've ran a premade group with a Jugg tank, Assassin dps, Merc healer and Sniper dps, so no loot is wasted, we ran it for a good 10 days, about 20-25 flashpoints in total. Most of the gear that dropped (~50%+) was willpower stuff, str/endurance and cunning gear dropped 50-50 (so ~20% each) and merc gear was less then 10%. At the end i (the sniper) have 5/5 columi, the juggernaut has 5/5 columi, the assassin has 4/5 columi, and the merc has tioneese gloves. Basicly everyone has gear xept the merc who still has blue items, while the 3 of us have full epic items.

 

Loot varied, but it never seem'd to vary torwards Heavy armor with Aim

[DaveMcG]

I've ran a premade group with a Jugg tank, Assassin dps, Merc healer and Sniper dps, so no loot is wasted, we ran it for a good 10 days, about 20-25 flashpoints in total. Most of the gear that dropped (~50%+) was willpower stuff, str/endurance and cunning gear dropped 50-50 (so ~20% each) and merc gear was less then 10%. At the end i (the sniper) have 5/5 columi, the juggernaut has 5/5 columi, the assassin has 4/5 columi, and the merc has tioneese gloves. Basicly everyone has gear xept the merc who still has blue items, while the 3 of us have full epic items.

 

Loot varied, but it never seem'd to vary torwards Heavy armor with Aim

 

Thanks for the info on having a balanced group. The one time we took one of each class into false emp, it was still the smuggler jacket that dropped but at least that time it didn't go to waste!

[michael-]

I run with a premade most of the time of: me ( jugg tank) and 3 IA 2 of them dps snipers and 1 a operative healer, we have ran about 8 false emperors HM and so far for the columi chest token we have gotten 1x BH 6x IA, i ran it in PUG on my dps sorcerer with 2 assassins and a Bounty hunter and we got the sith warrior chest, i was pretty mad since i need it on my main (jugg). Edited January 27, 2012 by michael-

[doubleaction]

I've run Kaon Under Siege HM every day since its release. At 2 tokens per run, I have never so much as seen a Trooper token.

 

I do not run with the exact same group each time, though we do tend to have the same classes in the group.

[Saeria]

It's just RNG. I ran False Emperor hardmode with Medic (Imperial Agent), Sniper (Imperial Agent), Sorceror (Sith Inquisitor) and Juggernaut (Sith Warrior) we got a variety of loot. ~We did this every day for a solid week or so to get the second IA chest to drop.

[Archimedez]

Our kind of fixed group consisted out of a vangaurd, two commandos and a gunslinger.

Over the weeks we got about 80% Jedi Knight gear, 10% consular, 10% useable.

There were streaks where we got like 7 JK pieces in a row.

I have done about 50 hard modes and only got the gloves out of it until Kaon dropped the helmet when we had a different setup.

[PhoenixMatrix]

He isn't ignoring your points. He has accepted them, someone disagreeing with your or requiring you to provide the burden of proof (which is upon you because YOU brought up the theory that you believed RNG was broken) does not make them a troll. If you are that narrow-minded that you think anyone disagreeing with you is a troll I highly suggest you review your definition of reality; or by extension go review what a debate actually means, because you simply aren't living in it.

 

What you both are agreeing on is that it's *improbable* that a string of loot would exist, but it's theoretically possible to exist.

 

What YOU are stating is that it's impossible that a string of loot like this should exist if it was truly random; which you cannot prove. Like the other guy said: You are shooting yourself in the foot because by all definitions you need to mathematically prove that it's impossible, which you cannot do. You can only do this if you see the RNG method.

 

Now, I'm not saying that RNG can be manipulated by player input/actions: (See: Golden Sun RNG Method) but I would really hope that the developers didn't make a system so easily exploitable/broken.

 

Your argument is cyclical at best, the only thing you can do is /bug it in-game and hope it draws some developers attention to take a look at it to ensure it's working as intended. Until then, you have to assume it's working as intended ESPECIALLY since people have stated they have gotten random loot as welll

 

People complain about the PVP RNG method as well: I've opened well over 40 Champion Bags and I've yet to receive a Headgear or Footwear slot item; though I've received 3 chests, 4 pairs of gloves, and 3 pants.

 

Do the math of what the odds of having trouble getting some pieces of champion gear i

pvp bags vs getting the same gear from every boss of a flashpont 5

times in a row. You're going to be a bit surprised by the difference in the numbers. You can't prove the rng is broken. But it is possible to prove that it is very very very very very very likely broken, which from what I have seen, it is. Half the people in this thread saying they have gotten random loot were also talking about across different flashpoints, others with different groups... only a few have gotten random loot with the same party from the same flashpoint...and who knows, maybe there is a setup that will work appropriately (after all, bioware must have tested at least on case =P

 

Until then, the odds of what my experience have been happening is so impossibly low, Id be better off buying loto tickets, so in my book, the rng is broken.

 

Also note that some stuff does seem to break the pattern. In our static group, if we beat the Sith Entity in false emperor, 100% of the time jedi knight body dropped. If we didnt, 100% of the time it was trooper. I don't know if its a coincidence as my sample size for that is too small. So maybe other things matter. How many people died? How many times you hit enrage? Which optionals you've done? Who knows. When everything is the same though, for us, same loot. Countless of attempts, and we're not just talking about the final boss. Same tionese, same schematics, everything.

 

And finally, they DID blow up the loot table on an ops. Not the same situation i know, but it does show that they can manipulate (and mess up) drop tables...so its not impossible.

Edited January 27, 2012 by PhoenixMatrix

[Sykomyke]

I'm going to reply one more time in a benign attempt to explain random theory further. After that you can bang your head against a brick wall shouting "BIOWARE'S RNG IS BROKEN!!!111" all you want. I don't care.

 

You have a 25% chance for loot of your class to drop. I'm talking about tokens. I'm not talking about actual static dropped loot, it's already been proven that some bosses only drop certain gear (See Black Talon-Warning Spoilers: The only way to have a chance for the Juggernaut Chest to drop is to choose to keep the Captain Alive and fight the enemy boarding party)

 

Static loot (Actual gear, not token turn ins) is not the discussion of this thread, if it is then I'm done because static loot is just that it's part of a static table that has very little to no variance.

 

Token drops from bosses in Hard Modes is literally a 25% chance to drop for your class. How they determine if it drops is beyond me, I'm not so naive as to try and second guess Bioware OR their RNG system in place. However, you have to realize that despite "you" (read: your group) doing 11 runs in a row and getting the same gear, the statistics for that token dropping are done through the entire game (not just your group). So while you may have gotten the same gear multiple times, in reality you are just hitting the same 25% most of the time.

 

Let's look at this in a different way.

 

Group A runs HM FE and gets a SW/JK Chest piece. This was rolled by the game in the (simplified) variance returned from the RNG as a roll of 14 (in between 1-25) (26-100 being the other classes).

 

Group B runs HM FE and gets a Trooper/BH chest piece. This was rolled in-game as a returned value of 72 (in between 51-75).

 

Next day. You run HM FE again and you get another SW/JK Chest piece because your RNG rolled in the same variance field as before. Group B runs again and they get a DIFFERENT chest piece. You don't know this though. All YOU see is you getting the same gear.

 

The game sees the variance working properly. You're just unlucky because you're looking at your groups rolls as the only rolls in the game, when in reality there are other groups rolling for the same exact thing.

 

Essentially when you look at YOUR groups "chances" alone, you are filtering out all the other people on the server (both republic and imperial) who are rolling on that item.

 

You don't think items are assigned to instances do you?

 

A boss is given a loot table with a variance, this is the same reason we see shared classes with tokens (I see a chest piece that says "Sith Warrior/Jed Knight" as the required class. Loot tables are shared between both sides, so in reality you aren't fighting a boss with a singular table, you are fighting a boss with a shared loot table. The loot table is rolled upon when that boss is defeated and the loot is spawned in his corpse for your group. The rolls for that loot table are being used by multiple people all the time, not just your group.

 

I hope you understand why your viewpoint is very flawed now. If not, there's nothing more I can explain and I hope your mother is proud of you regardless.

[DaveMcG]

the statistics for that token dropping are done through the entire game (not just your group).

 

You think that it keeps track of the drops for EVERY group running the instance across the whole game and tries to randomize it?

 

Interesting theory, but I don't believe it is done that way in any other MMO, so why would that do that here?

 

Thanks for explaining your view however.

[JLapp]

You think that it keeps track of the drops for EVERY group running the instance across the whole game and tries to randomize it?

 

Interesting theory, but I don't believe it is done that way in any other MMO, so why would that do that here?

 

Thanks for explaining your view however.

 

I think he is saying that the validation of randomness done by bioware is done on an aggregate basis, not per-group. So while the few groups that have posted in the thread have seen a limited variation in what has dropped for them, it is very possible that when they view all drops made by the boss that there is a fairly uniform amount of drops between classes.

 

I won't rule out that there is something funny going on with the system they have for determining what drops, there very well could be some adjustment made to a RNG that isn't behaving correctly (in beta they had a problem with conversation rolls...they were suppose to have an adjustment for people who weren't winning rolls but instead it was making it so one person would win about 95% of the conversation rolls).

 

The thing with this thread is that we are looking at a very small subset. With all the people playing this game, extreme situations will happen. People have a natural inclination to not trust a RNG and only notice unique results. The people who are seeing expected results are in all likelihood not going to post it on the forums. Dave has even solicited any mention of non-uniform drops other threads to post it in here.

 

Maybe it is the fact that I'm not seeing the problem that is creating my view, but all I have gathered from this thread is there are some people that are getting unlucky with their drops.

[DaveMcG]

Well, it is still a small % of the games population that is running hard mode FP's 2-3 times a day. It gets even smaller when you consider people that are only running with the same 3 partners. I have also asked anyone that is running with the same people all the time to post if they DON'T see this trend, and I'm still waiting for those people to show up.

 

The idea that other groups drops are impacting ours is silly though. That's like saying a friend flipping a coin in another room of my house would change what flips I see.

[DarthChagras]

Hey all,

 

Our standard group has been running hardmodes for the last 2 weeks. It's typically a guardian tank, sage healer, commando dps, and sentinel dps. We are seeing next to zero variance in drops when running with this premade group.

 

The couple times we have swapped out a member or two, is the only time we've seen different drops.

 

Take False Emperor for example. We've run it 13 times and seen the smuggler jacket 11 of those times. Twice it's been the Trooper jacket and those 2 times we had swapped out members.

 

Are other premade groups seeing this? Don't bother telling me random is random. I know how streaks are possible, but I'd love to know if other people that run with the SAME GROUP are seeing very little variance in drops.

 

Cheers!

 

I run with the same group as well

Sorceror Healer

Juggernaut Tank (Me)

Marauder DPS

Marauder DPS

 

and we always get BH Aim, or IA Cunning gear. That's it. I've gotten the Gloves drop from the 1st boss in Kaon HM, and the other night our Sorc got two pieces from BT HM other than that however it's been all BH and Agent gear....

[JLapp]

The idea that other groups drops are impacting ours is silly though. That's like saying a friend flipping a coin in another room of my house would change what flips I see.

 

 

I'm saying if you flip a coin and get heads 5 times, and I flip the same coin 5 times and get all tails, the coin is probably balanced.

 

Your conclusion would be that EVERY time I flip the coin I am going to get tails and every time you flip the coin you are going to get heads.

Edited January 27, 2012 by JLapp

[Jinxblog]

For all the people who keep getting the same class loot in HMs:

 

Does the same person loot the boss/chest in your premade? Is it always the guardian tank? Always the greedy little smuggler? The healing sorc?

 

While NOTHING is proved, our little group noticed that we would always get an OVERWHELMING amount trooper gear whenever the smuggler would loot the chest/boss. The more we rotated who would loot, the more variance in gear we got.

 

Try it out, it may produce some results for you

Edited January 27, 2012 by Jinxblog