Hardmode Flashpoints; No loot variance for premade groups

[Felcat]

We're never going to get a comment from Bioware, either.

 

There wont be a quote because nothing will change your mind.

 

You are ignorant of how statistics work, and you fail to grasp how anecdotal forum posts are not useful evidence.

 

 

The loot system is random, its as random as any random number generator can be. It's not broken, Bioware is not trying to slow down players by making useless gear drop, or shunt gear in OPs to all one player, etc etc.

 

But that won't matter to the people who's minds are locked onto the idea the game is some how designed against them, just like nothing will change the minds of people who are locked onto the idea the Moon Landing didn't happen.

[Eileithia]

There wont be a quote because nothing will change your mind.

 

You are ignorant of how statistics work, and you fail to grasp how anecdotal forum posts are not useful evidence.

 

 

The loot system is random, its as random as any random number generator can be. It's not broken, Bioware is not trying to slow down players by making useless gear drop, or shunt gear in OPs to all one player, etc etc.

 

But that won't matter to the people who's minds are locked onto the idea the game is some how designed against them, just like nothing will change the minds of people who are locked onto the idea the Moon Landing didn't happen.

 

You must not be seeing what I'm seeing then because in a true random situation in multiple runs of the same zone getting the EXACT SAME ITEM every time (never any varience) is not impossible but extremely unlikely, and the chances of this happening get lower and lower the more you run. We're not seeing these chances decrease. Ship boss in False Emperor either only has 1 piece of loot or there's something seriously funky going on. (I know for a fact there is more than 1 item it can drop, but our group has NEVER seen anything different)

 

We have seen very limited varience in other drops, and if the conspiracy theorists are to be believed, this could be due to the random DPS we PUG, but this specific one just blows my mind and solidifies the fact that something is wrong with the RNG.

[Daltin]

There wont be a quote because nothing will change your mind.

 

You are ignorant of how statistics work, and you fail to grasp how anecdotal forum posts are not useful evidence.

 

 

The loot system is random, its as random as any random number generator can be. It's not broken, Bioware is not trying to slow down players by making useless gear drop, or shunt gear in OPs to all one player, etc etc.

 

But that won't matter to the people who's minds are locked onto the idea the game is some how designed against them, just like nothing will change the minds of people who are locked onto the idea the Moon Landing didn't happen.

 

Your ignorance is your downfall. You are reading only what you want to, obviously. You are ignoring the STATISTICAL IMPROBABILITIES for things that are supposed to be 25% across the board, -NEVER- dropping for people after 30 consecutive attempts.

 

25% is NOT a small number in the world of percentages. I threw out this gem of a challenge in a previous thread.

 

I challenge anyone to do the following:

 

1) Flip 2 Quarters , one in your left hand, one in your right hand.

2) Do this 13 times.

3) Achieve the following:

a) Left hand flipping Heads

b) Right hand flipping Tails

c) 11 of 13 times.

 

Maybe one person does this.. If the stars are aligned, maybe two people do this in a small time frame.

 

For THIS EXACT SCENARIO to occur, to MULTIPLE PEOPLE, on a -Daily Basis-, across multiple days, and weeks.. is ABSURD.

 

You are doing math an injustice by spouting off "rng is rng" claims when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

We've narrowed it down to the following:

 

The issue occurs when the SAME FOUR PEOPLE run Hardmodes together over the course of days and weeks.

 

The issues is RESOLVED when the players find DIFFERENT PLAYERS to play with.

 

Sucks when you only have 12 people doing Hardmodes on your entire server, with one group running at 2PM EST, 8pm EST, and 1am EST.

 

 

 

Stop ignoring the facts just to cause a scene. This thread isnt for you. It's for the people who are experiencing this issue and are trying to provide Bioware with the Who:What:When:Where:Why as to why it's happening.

 

Why are we doing this? Because we like this game, and want it to succeed. We don't want it to fail. If we did, we sure as hell wouldn't be on here, compiling days and weeks of data for Bioware to look at and go through.

 

Shut the hell up, and get off this thread.

[Felcat]

Your ignorance is your downfall. You are reading only what you want to, obviously. You are ignoring the STATISTICAL IMPROBABILITIES for things that are supposed to be 25% across the board, -NEVER- dropping for people after 30 consecutive attempts.

 

Shut the hell up, and get off this thread.

 

 

Improbability and impossibility ARE NOT THE SAME.

 

Hire 1000 people to flip quarters for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week

 

Do this for a few months and YOU WILL GET odd streaks that have a stupidly low chance of happening.

 

Every time a boss drops a Columi token, it is an independent roll, how many times you've killed that boss has no effect on the odds of the token being selected this time.

 

But like I said, your mind is locked in, so you just tell people to shut up at the end of your posts for disagreeing.

[Daltin]

Do this for a few months and YOU WILL GET odd streaks that have a stupidly low chance of happening.

 

Months. Not HOURS.

[Daltin]

Never said it was an impossibility. You're the one whose mind is so closed that you are ignoring the factual basis of the claims of the people experiencing this issue. Just because you do not see this, does not mean it's not occuring .

 

I'm going to forward you here.

 

http://ask.metafilter.com/80046/Coin-flip-odds

 

That's just for the standard Heads Tails on one coin, not two coins at once.

 

Is it possible for a group to receive the same item, at a 25% chance, 30 times in a row?

 

-ABSOLUTELY-.

 

But when it happens to every group that runs with the same 4 people every night, that's not a GIGANTIC RED FLAG To you? Maybe there has been a breakdown of communication somewhere, or something. But i highly suggest you go back and read through the entire thread.

 

There are common threads being shared between the people that have this issue. The largest, as i've said multiple times in the thread, as well as in this single post, is that it occurs with people who run ..

 

The

Exact

Same

Group

Multiple

Times

In

A

Row.

 

Break the group up? Pug a DPS? Pug a healer? Pug a tank? -PROBLEM SOLVED-. This has been CONFIRMED by multiple people in this thread that have experienced this issue.

I apologize sincerely for periods of rudeness directed towards you, but understand its coming from the frustration of people saying "there's not a problem", just because they haven't experienced it.

 

However, on a low population server where 12 people total are doing hardmodes, this is not an option.

[Daltin]

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1747/how-to-determine-if-coin-comes-up-heads-more-often-than-tails

 

The odds of someone getting an item that has a 25% equal drop chance, 11 times consecutively, is .000000238418579%.

 

This % of a chance is occuring multiple times a day, to multiple people. Always with people running the same group of 4 people through Flashpoints.. This is what im trying to convey.

 

The sheer size of this statistical anomaly is so large, that the chances of it occuring to one of us is so high, we should get an honorary commemoration on the front page of the website for it happening.

 

But, it is happening to a lot of us. This is the problem.

[Graburr]

The loot system is random, its as random as any random number generator can be.

 

see, as a player, I don't really care. IF I wanted to bow down to the almighty RNG, I'd give my money to an korean f2p mmo provider.

 

running taral v normal solo to finish my set (which in itself is f*cked up because the loottable has drops for EVERY spec and even the imp variant), I always get the same loot. considering this, there is maybe one or two item difference when I run it, but I ALWAYS got a +aim generator of the first boss, willpower gloves off the second and the exact same breastplate from the droid.

 

mind you, I run that thing alone.

 

so it might be truly RNG and only I get odd streaks (which I doubt), but let's think about that: TOR is aimed at casuals, it's 2012 and a AAA mmo. which dev in it right mind thinks it's a good idea to drop fixed items instead of currency to trade in? especially with a f*cked up RNG like this?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Graburr

[Generaljerms]

Even when we change our groups composition we are still seeing the same loot drop from the same boss repeatedly. We ran Maelstrom Prison 4 times; Twice with JK Tank,JK Dps, Consular Healer and Consular DPS; Once with JK Tank, JK Dps, Consular Healer, Smuggler DPS; Once with JK Tank, JK Dps, Consular DPS, Smuggler Healer. Each time we had the First group only smuggler tokens dropped, the second two only trooper tokens dropped. We then did a Esseles with JK Tank, JK Dps, Trooper Dps, Consular Healer with smuggler gear dropping. So no matter what the class that was not there the token dropped for, its rather frustrating not being able to progress in gear other than counting commendations, if I wanted to grind for pointless reasons, i'll go play random internet games. I'm all for waiting and working for your gear but when not a SINGLE token has dropped for my group, its disheartening and ridiculous. I know I haven't run many HM's but I can't do multiples because our gear is to shabby and I really don't want to go through the pain of running 40+ HM's without a token. I know RNG and statistics say that its just a bad luck but shouldn't they have some sort of protection against the same loot repeatedly dropping? I can't resort to OP's because our guild just doesn't have the 50's in it to make a group or even the gear to effectively run one.

 

I know it seems like I'm just blowing off steam and whining on the forums but as a ex-WoW player of 3 years I know what it is to not get loot, but even eventually after 2-3 times raiding or heroics you'd get something to play with.

 

Plus it gets boring staring at the same appearance on your character.

 

I wish everyone having this problem goodluck and not to lose hope; Bioware makes great games and I'm sure they'll fix it or even out the loot. Happy hunting.

[Lord-Raze]

All we get in my group is Imp Agent and BH loot Nothing else we ahve run HM for 3½ week now and I haven´t seen a single warrior drop as of now.. it´s getting pretty frustrating now when our BH and agent are fully fitted in columi and the Tanksin and me the Marauder haven´t got a single piece as of yet.. *** I don´t call that unlucky I call it BUGGED

[Scandal-]

all we get in my group is imp agent and bh loot nothing else we ahve run hm for 3½ week now and i haven´t seen a single warrior drop as of now.. It´s getting pretty frustrating now when our bh and agent are fully fitted in columi and the tanksin and me the marauder haven´t got a single piece as of yet.. *** i don´t call that unlucky i call it bugged

 

this ^

[Khaunshar]

Similar problems for our group. Boarding Party has dropped Sith Warrior 5 times in a row, and never anything else. Battle for Ilum is always the Inquisitor offhand, while False emperor has been Bounty Hunter 3 out of 4.

 

Weird.

[DarthSunshine]

we spent... hours in The False Emp.

 

;(

 

Well there's your problem. That flash should only take an hour or so

[Soluss]

There wont be a quote because nothing will change your mind.

 

You are ignorant of how statistics work, and you fail to grasp how anecdotal forum posts are not useful evidence.

 

 

The loot system is random, its as random as any random number generator can be. It's not broken, Bioware is not trying to slow down players by making useless gear drop, or shunt gear in OPs to all one player, etc etc.

 

But that won't matter to the people who's minds are locked onto the idea the game is some how designed against them, just like nothing will change the minds of people who are locked onto the idea the Moon Landing didn't happen.

 

There is something broken with their random. Just because you are blind to it and want to be an internet super hero, doesnt mean there isnt something broken. Perfect example. Did a normal mode op yesterday. We had 3 inqusitors, 2 bhs, 2 juggs 1 op. 1 sith inquisitor got a piece of colimni on every boss. The other 2 si's got nothing. 1 bh got a piece of loot on every boss the other got nothing. 1 jug got a piece of loot on 2 bosses the other got nothing. This happens every week.

 

Sorry but this is not random.

 

As to an example of loot in the flashpoints....

 

False Emp... We get a sith inquisitor chest almost every single time. We run this instance every day almost. Weve run it for a month now. Thats not random. Kaon BH helm every time... except the one time we actually brought a BH.

 

You can call RNG all you want but there is still something broken.

[PhoenixMatrix]

We also have to keep in mind that:

 

-The game has <2 million subscribers right now, as far as I know

 

-The odds of getting the exact same drops, including tionese and schematics in some cases, dozens of times in a row can be in the 1/hundreds of millions.

 

-Its crazy that it happens to even one person

 

-Its happening to countless of people, and there's not anywhere close to hundreds of millions of people.

 

 

 

We have to filter out:

 

-People who run with pugs and random people a lot, as to them everything would seem to be working

 

-People who ran ops 2-3 times and complain that only BH or whatever loot dropped, as that is very very likely to happen.

 

-Are running different flashpoints once or twice each and making conclusions based on that sample, as anything could happen that way even if its random for real.

[Scandal-]

Well I'm in a more or less static group, either on my Sorc healer or Marauder, but its pretty much always pretty much an even spread group or one less merc and one more sith warrior.

 

Across both characters I've done 7 HMs today, again, nothing dropped once, though I've finally got enough Columni tokens to buy a piece on my marauder, maybe in 3 weeks I will have caught up to what my companions have been at for last week, go me.

[DaveMcG]

My little baby is over 15,000 views! My best forums thread ever!

 

It's really surprising more people haven't posted that their static group doesn't see this behaviour...... /sarcasm off

[Mihira]

Ran about 20 HM flashpoints with a premade group of Juggernaut, Assassin, Sniper and Mercenary, and I've yet to see a single Bounty Hunter token drop (while our assassin has had full columi for quite a while now). Meanwhile, I almost got enough of those crystals to buy my first piece... Edited February 9, 2012 by Mihira

[MisterGrouik]

6-7 operations in NORMAL MODE

1 operation in HARD MODE

 

Composition is the same almost all the time:

-1 trooper (me), sometimes 2

-2-3 Jedi Knight

-4 Consular

 

On this 8 operations, that means 8 operations x 5 boss x 2 tokens =80 tokens , only 4 *********** TROOPER TOKEN dropped. 4 !

5% of the total. Shouldn't it be 25% ?!

It's always one for Consular and one for Knight. It's just absurd and there's no way this isn't bugged.

 

I'm not raiding for stuff/loot, but please, you must know that reward is important for your moral.

[Harmony]

6-7 operations in NORMAL MODE

1 operation in HARD MODE

 

Composition is the same almost all the time:

-1 trooper (me), sometimes 2

-2-3 Jedi Knight

-4 Consular

 

On this 8 operations, that means 8 operations x 5 boss x 2 tokens =80 tokens , only 4 *********** TROOPER TOKEN dropped. 4 !

5% of the total. Shouldn't it be 25% ?!

It's always one for Consular and one for Knight. It's just absurd and there's no way this isn't bugged.

 

I'm not raiding for stuff/loot, but please, you must know that reward is important for your moral.

 

How many smuggler drops did you get in normal? I'll take a wild guess at 0.

 

Loot in normal ops seems to be randomly allocated to a person before being made into a finished product; which means you're just plain unlucky.

So, if you're a single trooper, it should be 12.5% over an infinite stretch of time. Half that over a decently long stretch is unlikely, but hardly impossible.

 

Checking from my loot logs, in Hard Mode Ops, it's a very even drop-rate (which is cool for us rare Agents, not so cool for all those Sorcerer's!)

[NowakSs]

I've Done False Emperor about 20 Times And for a fact Have seen Trooper/bounty hunter gear Drop with no bounty hunter/Trooper in the group 13 times I have stooped doing it as

If a Troopers not with me theirs no point I run with Sent dps Saga heal Shadow Tank Gunslinger dps

Edited February 9, 2012 by NowakSs

[Daluu]

I think we can all agree that loot is not random in this game. Question is why? That had to be a decision that was made in development, so why would they choose to make one of the most essential aspects of this game so frustrating.

 

For instance, the only sniper in my 8 man raid has full rakata gear 4 times over while myself and our other 2 inquisitors just have 2-3 pieces at most (most of which was acquired in FPs). Also, why did they choose to not have a /roll function. There is no way they didn't consider it, so how could they think not having that is the better decision. It baffles me.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Daluu

[Avia]

Ladies and gentlemen, I regret to inform you that random does in fact mean random. However much you may dislike it, however bad your 'luck' may be, however much things seem to be a pattern. They are not. You're 'problems' as stated in this thread are a miniscule minority, which tends to imply that the thousands upon thousands of forum posters NOT posting in this thread are not having issues.

 

TLDR: Random loot is random, keep on trying, eventually youll get something, or something will drop that will break your fancy 'x drops with y in group' patterns.

[Daluu]

Ladies and gentlemen, I regret to inform you that random does in fact mean random. However much you may dislike it, however bad your 'luck' may be, however much things seem to be a pattern. They are not. You're 'problems' as stated in this thread are a miniscule minority, which tends to imply that the thousands upon thousands of forum posters NOT posting in this thread are not having issues.

 

TLDR: Random loot is random, keep on trying, eventually youll get something, or something will drop that will break your fancy 'x drops with y in group' patterns.

 

Where does it state that the function that determines what loot drops is in fact a Random function??? I dont believe that has ever been stated by BW. I think we are just assuming thats the case bc it makes sense.

 

And its very obvious for anyone who does the same FP 10-20 times hoping to get loot that the system is in fact NOT random. There is no way a random system would allow for the same drop 13-15 times out of 20 for the sheer amount of people that have complained about this.

 

I have done probably 30 HMs total and I've only seen 1 Inq columi piece drop. And the typical columi piece that drops is for a class that is not in the group. That also happens far to often. Ive had HM EV runs where half the loot is warrior/guardian and we dont run with that class.

 

I know that random is random, but is the function even labeled as random by BW? And even if it is, the amount of people who are having terrible """luck""" is just to large to ignore.

 

Edit: just noticed what you said about number of people complaining. I know a LOT of people on my server who have the same problem. They don't complain about it more as just are getting very curious as to why they are having '''bad luck''' everytime they run a HM or an OP. I think that more and more people are catching on to this and soon we will see many more complaints on the forums.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Daluu

[Scandal-]

Aaaaaand again BH chest drops twice in TFE today, sorry but, now in about 20 goes in TFE on 2 characters I've never seen a Sith chest piece drop, not once, combined with all the other zones with similiar habits, this is REALLY starting to annoy me, I'm sick of this zone.