Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

[rlhaas]

I'm telling you from experience it's a non-issue. You can keep blowing hot air if you want, but BW won't change guard. When I stop dropping tanks in 4 seconds through coordinated focus fire, I'll start complaining about guard.

 

Okay, okay. You're only PROVING the original poster's point. Is anybody reading? The original poster went through the process of explaining that guard *shouldn't* be a mechanic that makes it *mandatory* to attack one target (specifically, the tank) only because he's guarding a more important target (ball carrier, door buster, healer, etc). While you and at least two other teammates are bursting down the tank, the guy he's guarding is finishing his objectives and still not taking damage due to guard. Does that make it overpowered? No. Should Guard be looked at if Bioware's intention is to tone down burst (I'm assuming Operatives aren't going to be the only class Bioware 'brings in line' as far as burst goes)? Yes.

[KiranK]

Okay, okay. You're only PROVING the original poster's point. Is anybody reading? The original poster went through the process of explaining that guard *shouldn't* be a mechanic that makes it *mandatory* to attack one target (specifically, the tank) only because he's guarding a more important target (ball carrier, door buster, healer, etc). While you and at least two other teammates are bursting down the tank, the guy he's guarding is finishing his objectives and still not taking damage due to guard. Does that make it overpowered? No. Should Guard be looked at if Bioware's intention is to tone down burst (I'm assuming Operatives aren't going to be the only class Bioware 'brings in line' as far as burst goes)? Yes.

 

Oh noes, tanks are useful. The sky is falling. So what? We should nerf guard so that tanks are no longer a viable PvP option? Oh yea, that'll make everyone happy. Sorry if every class having a role in PvP hurts your feelings. If you want damage and healing only, you know which game to go to. Starts with a "W'.

[Revanmug]

Okay, okay. You're only PROVING the original poster's point. Is anybody reading? The original poster went through the process of explaining that guard *shouldn't* be a mechanic that makes it *mandatory* to attack one target (specifically, the tank) only because he's guarding a more important target (ball carrier, door buster, healer, etc). While you and at least two other teammates are bursting down the tank, the guy he's guarding is finishing his objectives and still not taking damage due to guard. Does that make it overpowered? No. Should Guard be looked at if Bioware's intention is to tone down burst (I'm assuming Operatives aren't going to be the only class Bioware 'brings in line' as far as burst goes)? Yes.

 

Are you really that stupid?

Ball carrier... huh Them firetrap will pretty much kill both player... Knockback, cc?!?! wait what? Actually, your "tank" is probably carrying the ball and flying all around at the speed of light.

Door buster?!?!?! wwaaaaaatttt? dot him once and he is done? AoE the area for the few second before it explode/before they plant/capture?! What is stoping you from doing that?

Healer?! Reading this thread must be hard, too hard.

 

Those reasons and just plain stupid and you should be ashame of yourself.

[Tuloc]

Okay, okay. You're only PROVING the original poster's point. Is anybody reading? The original poster went through the process of explaining that guard *shouldn't* be a mechanic that makes it *mandatory* to attack one target (specifically, the tank) only because he's guarding a more important target (ball carrier, door buster, healer, etc). While you and at least two other teammates are bursting down the tank, the guy he's guarding is finishing his objectives and still not taking damage due to guard. Does that make it overpowered? No. Should Guard be looked at if Bioware's intention is to tone down burst (I'm assuming Operatives aren't going to be the only class Bioware 'brings in line' as far as burst goes)? Yes.

 

Wow... just wow. Not taking damage? Are we even in the same conversation here? Do you even know what guard does?

[rlhaas]

Oh noes, tanks are useful. The sky is falling. So what? We should nerf guard so that tanks are no longer a viable PvP option? Oh yea, that'll make everyone happy. Sorry if every class having a role in PvP hurts your feelings. If you want damage and healing only, you know which game to go to. Starts with a "W'.

 

I have no idea how the original poster put up with 30 pages of responses like this, haha. You did exactly what every other fearful and over-reactive tank has done in this thread: didn't even try to comprehend through reading. Where in that little quote there did I say I didn't want tanks to be viable? Oh that's right, nowhere. Where in that little quote there did I say classes having a role 'hurt my feelings'?! Honestly, I have no idea where you're coming from other than 'LEAVE MY TANK ALONE *TEARS TEARS*,'. Please do not bother quoting my posts if you don't want to at least discuss what was actually in them....and that tripe from you I'm quoting above certainly wasn't in my post.

 

If all you're doing in PvP is using Guard, than not only are you doing it wrong, but you are a SUPER, DUPER BADDIE. Period. I LOVE tanks. That doesn't mean that I don't think OP has a point when it comes to one mechanic NEEDING to be balanced around when there's no good way to do it properly. Balance without Guard in mind? Unkillable targets. Balance with Guard in mind? Wayyyyy too much DPS floating around when a target isn't guarded. Or you could be like every other bad tank in this thread and just suggest that you switch tactics even as Bioware continually lowers damage but keeps Guard the same. After all, wouldn't want you one trick tanks to have nothing to do in PvP *ROLLEY EYES*.

 

I mean I just love it guys. The guy says, 'Guard's one of those mechanics that's way too hard to continually balance for (and even gives multiple examples in other games) because the pendulum swings too far to one side or another either way you slice it. Perhaps Bioware could come up with a way for tanks to have a more active role in PvP and divvy up mitigation talents through other means, thereby making tanks better,' and people like this guy I quoted don't read the post, don't comprehend what he's saying and then spew out garbage like this guy did to me.

[rlhaas]

Wow... just wow. Not taking damage? Are we even in the same conversation here? Do you even know what guard does?

 

Guard ability lets you select an ally and cast this ability on him. This will “link” their health to the tank’s and 50% of all damage the “guarded” character receives is damaging the tank instead. My mistake brosephus!

[RealAeiouy]

It is because the op is wrong and doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Phixler]

Not when you rebalance things accordingly.

 

The point is that this isn't about Guard being too powerful in 1.1. The point is that guard is too game-changing period. It is so game-changing that you have to balance with guard in mind and unbalance the rest of the game, or balance without guard in mind and unbalance guard.

 

For the health of the overall PVP game PVP tanking needs to be changed to more active, pinpoint mitigation rather than a flat passive 50% soul link.

 

If you want to call that a guard "nerf" you can I guess but it just shows you arn't really thinking about the bigger picture. The intent is not to make tanks less viable in PVP, the intent is to lessen the impact of an ability which changes the balance calculus much too much.

 

Lol rookie.

 

Guarding is one of the most active protection roles in the game. You don't just put it on one person and run around and forget about it....if you do, you are bad.

 

Guard swapping is very active and requires you to almost play like a healer in terms of watching who is getting focused and who needs protection.

 

The change in 1.1 that makes guard activate without having to de-activate actually promotes more active play because it's easier to swap your guard.

 

All you WoW kids need to expand your horizons. Welcome to PVP where not every class needs to burst/pillar hump to be effective.

[SajPl]

Guard is fine. I often find myself being paralyzed - enemy players takes turns doing it, they kill off my tank which I cant be healing, they kill me, end of story. If youre saing the problem is taking on two guys, well then its a problem ...

[Dorkfrey]

I have no idea how the original poster put up with 30 pages of responses like this, haha. You did exactly what every other fearful and over-reactive tank has done in this thread: didn't even try to comprehend through reading. Where in that little quote there did I say I didn't want tanks to be viable? Oh that's right, nowhere. Where in that little quote there did I say classes having a role 'hurt my feelings'?! Honestly, I have no idea where you're coming from other than 'LEAVE MY TANK ALONE *TEARS TEARS*,'. Please do not bother quoting my posts if you don't want to at least discuss what was actually in them....and that tripe from you I'm quoting above certainly wasn't in my post.

 

If all you're doing in PvP is using Guard, than not only are you doing it wrong, but you are a SUPER, DUPER BADDIE. Period. I LOVE tanks. That doesn't mean that I don't think OP has a point when it comes to one mechanic NEEDING to be balanced around when there's no good way to do it properly. Balance without Guard in mind? Unkillable targets. Balance with Guard in mind? Wayyyyy too much DPS floating around when a target isn't guarded. Or you could be like every other bad tank in this thread and just suggest that you switch tactics even as Bioware continually lowers damage but keeps Guard the same. After all, wouldn't want you one trick tanks to have nothing to do in PvP *ROLLEY EYES*.

 

I mean I just love it guys. The guy says, 'Guard's one of those mechanics that's way too hard to continually balance for (and even gives multiple examples in other games) because the pendulum swings too far to one side or another either way you slice it. Perhaps Bioware could come up with a way for tanks to have a more active role in PvP and divvy up mitigation talents through other means, thereby making tanks better,' and people like this guy I quoted don't read the post, don't comprehend what he's saying and then spew out garbage like this guy did to me.

 

Quickie question for you:

 

What's the main Class nerf been to?

 

If I'm not sorely mistaken, is Op/Scoundrel.

 

These guys, if I recall correctly - and I may not - but I think do, were - stealthers, who waited for a stray puppy to wander too far from the pack, pop out of stealth after CC'ing it, and blow their respective loads on said lonesome puppy.

 

In a matter of a few GCD's.

 

What the person you responded to first, was referring to - wasn't a bit of burst, but sustained/coordinated fire (is that old teamwork notion again - which the OP clearly can't comprehend). Which - Guard doesn't stop (AoE taunts and debuffs - that's another story - but now we're getting into the realms of theorycrafting fights). And does spread the damage around so the healer has to either heal two targets, or - risk one or other being in a position of vulnerability to burst (even post nerf).

 

I'm probably one of those superbaddie tanks you're talking about - since I don't leave combat techniques, ever. I use it to apply debuffs to try and ensure the survival of my "team". As a penalty - I don't do much damage.

 

Truthfully - I don't think it needs to be nerfed. Without "teamwork" Guard is pointless and risky. With "teamwork" it's a good thing, but not an automatic I WIN button. We've had some people in this thread state that while everyone's health is 15k, but with guard is becomes 120k health. They claim this as a fact too.

 

OP Boy, wants to make it, so that Guard gives the damage dealer a MULTIPLIER on his damage. If we want to guard someone, then he starts doing 125% damage. Do you not see the flaw in this plan? What quicker way to get rid of tanks in PvP. Damn, can't have you guarding me, we all take more damage than if I had to heal us all without guard.

 

And you wonder why tanks are going "He's LOCO."?

[Jargonaut]

Another person who doesn't understand basic math. Again, it's not about damage numbers per se and not being able to kill someone. If BW decides to balance to guard then obviously people will still be able to kill people. But the side effect will be non-guarded players getting blown up in 3 seconds.

 

This may be too complicated a concept for your average forum denizen, but BW can balance to any situation. The problem isn't being unable to kill people. The problem is guard creates a fundamental balance problem that can't be solved.

 

Guard is fine. The is not about simple maths. You're not necessarily meant to be able to kill the guarded target if the guard and guardee are working together well. Guard is a mechanic around which you have to work strategically. If a target is guarded either choose another target or work on seperating the guard and guardee with cc, then dps.

[Kalliadies]

I read the first page, and how Guard ruins burst damage.

 

Damage isnt lost, its transfered. so how can it be ruined.

 

I like to trap the tank close to his guarded mark so I can aoe them with a high damage ability. The tank takes 150% of the damage. Helps kill him faster. If im on my lethiality sniper i will just drop a ton of internal damage on the tank. melts them good.

 

Id like to say that guard and taunt are the best tank mechanics I have seen in an mmo. Not having played WAR this is new to me. Finally i can protect and absorb purposefully

 

In AOC my only effective taunt was via burst damage. Attack me and ill go defensive and soak damage. Don’t attack me and I will go offensive and try to burst you down.

 

Swtor PvP tanking is MUCH more satisfying

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kalliadies

[Adzzy]

I have no idea how the original poster put up with 30 pages of responses like this, haha. You did exactly what every other fearful and over-reactive tank has done in this thread: didn't even try to comprehend through reading. Where in that little quote there did I say I didn't want tanks to be viable? Oh that's right, nowhere. Where in that little quote there did I say classes having a role 'hurt my feelings'?! Honestly, I have no idea where you're coming from other than 'LEAVE MY TANK ALONE *TEARS TEARS*,'. Please do not bother quoting my posts if you don't want to at least discuss what was actually in them....and that tripe from you I'm quoting above certainly wasn't in my post.

 

If all you're doing in PvP is using Guard, than not only are you doing it wrong, but you are a SUPER, DUPER BADDIE. Period. I LOVE tanks. That doesn't mean that I don't think OP has a point when it comes to one mechanic NEEDING to be balanced around when there's no good way to do it properly. Balance without Guard in mind? Unkillable targets. Balance with Guard in mind? Wayyyyy too much DPS floating around when a target isn't guarded. Or you could be like every other bad tank in this thread and just suggest that you switch tactics even as Bioware continually lowers damage but keeps Guard the same. After all, wouldn't want you one trick tanks to have nothing to do in PvP *ROLLEY EYES*.

 

I mean I just love it guys. The guy says, 'Guard's one of those mechanics that's way too hard to continually balance for (and even gives multiple examples in other games) because the pendulum swings too far to one side or another either way you slice it. Perhaps Bioware could come up with a way for tanks to have a more active role in PvP and divvy up mitigation talents through other means, thereby making tanks better,' and people like this guy I quoted don't read the post, don't comprehend what he's saying and then spew out garbage like this guy did to me.

 

The thing is you don't get it at all, not one bit, abilities exist because problems exist, the problem is, like in every mmo beforehand that tanks can't tank in a pvp setting.

 

there are two ways of doing this, a hard tanking implementation, ie you're forced to attack tanks - no one likes not having control of their character. A soft implementation, ie guard, taunt etc

 

Burst really isn't all that bad right now, there's 3 problem classes, but this game is real early, 1 is getting changed (oper/smug), 1 probably needs to be left alone as they give up all survivability for it basically (jugg/guard) and 1 probably needs a nerf as they get more survival skills than anyone for a non positional (assas/shadow), the rest of the classes can do dps, but no ridiculous burst window skills.

[RavinKing]

on my marksman gunslinger i have little to no issue with guard. and yes that is as both a recipient and someone trying to get through it. if i am having a hard time burning down my target i switch targets. and even if i have guard on me it is still easy to kill me if i get forced from my cover spot. yes it helps but not to any game breaking degree, and to be frank my tanking friends would hate pvp if not for the damage transfer that guard and taunting provide.

[WookieBob]

find the tank and kill him first that stops guard easy

 

push him into the fire with the person he's guarding

[Xerkics]

Guard and taunt is what makes tanks worthwhile to play in pvp without them you coud pretty much ignore them. Stop whining .

[Xerkics]

I just cant wait for all the whiners to ragequit so i can actually read the forums without all the spam.

[LordDeadly]

If BW Really changes what the so called "supporters" of this thread call balancing... *Sigh*

First of all, I play a Jedi guardian myself, and people just don't seem to realise that we get the damage dealt 1,5x times? "100%" damage dealt on you + 50% of the target your guarding. When they start focussing you and your guarded ally,

and you don't have a healer close or aren't guarding a healer(who focuses on you with his heals) means like dead in the next 20seconds.

 

You just need to know how to handle a guarded person;

 

• Get them seperated for example, seems like empire has enough knock backs and pulls, so shouldn't be a problem?
  
• CC the guarded target and zerg the tank(empire knows what zerging is ->ilum)
  
• Operatives still can easily take out a tank in 10seconds.
  
• ...
  

 

 

And if BW would be following the few complainers on the forum here about the OP guard. Then you'll see all the tanks switching to another spec. In which case we do alot of AoE damage. With like 4-6k crits(critchance 100%)...

So I'll gues there will be another nerf threat about nerfing the guardians again because they do insane damage???

And so the ball starts to roll....

 

 

Seriously, it's not because you can't kill a guardian or it's guarded target, you immediatly need to start asking for a nerf.

You'de better check if you're doing something wrong... Or if you lack the skills/gear/tactics to get them down.

Edited January 24, 2012 by LordDeadly

[GolgoXIII]

No, the problem is that everything in the game changes based on whether you have guard.

 

The 30% healing debuff in PVP is a direct result of guard.

 

The excessive burst is a direct result of guard.

 

The reason why healers suck on their own but are awesome in coordinated play is because of guard.

 

A lot of you are saying "guard is fine, l2p" which is completely missing the point. BW has done its best to balance around guard but all that does is unbalance the rest of the game.

 

This is where you are wrong I am afraid. In so many ways.

 

1. The 30% healing debuff has everything to do with expertise. I am pretty sure that expertise ends up being more than 10% but I am thinking less than 13%. For this argument and being a nice even number 10% But because of how Expertise works increases healing for pvp Your healing would have come to about 121% to 122% as apposed to damage which basically evens out.

 

And this is how it works 10% expertise gives you 10% damage buff but also gives you 10% damage resist. Now Healing also gave you 10% better healing and the target also got 10% better heals and that is where I got the number so with the 30% nerf to healing and the buff expertise gives you, you get close to the original numbers that healers have in PvE.

 

If you didn't have that, then you would have walking walls of indestructibility with or without Guard, because they would have had an unfair advantage to others as expertise didn't affect healing negativley in any form. So from that explaination Guard had NO effect on the dev's decision to change healing it was expertise.

 

2. Excessive burst has nothing to do with guard it was something from the way they set it all up for pvp. It ended up being far to much for PvP that simple really. And most likely that came about because people were (so I am lead to believe) taking advantage of something where two buffs that shouldn't have stacked did and made them do far more damage than inteded. So once again NOTHING to do with guard.

 

3. Guard is not as you imagine and I have to go with the rest of the all the other comments deal with it. Just like any other situation that happens in pvp, you will find that probably 9 times out of 10 in the heat of battle even an organised grp will have the guarded person and the guarding person seperated. Being a pug or organised group means squat if you're not willing to play as a group. No coperation you reap what you sow.

[Solonius]

The best part about this thread is that people complaining about guard don't realize how many times it has saved them before.

[ReckonerH]

If pvp tanking gets nerfed in any way I'm unsubbing. Plain and simple. I dont mean that as a sort of threat, its just that I pvp and pve tank and its the only part of pvp that im finding unique and fun in this game. If that gets ruined I see very little else keeping me playing. I absolutely hate saying that considering how much I was looking forward to this game but thats the situation.

 

If anything, I'd say tanking should be buffed or left as it is, NOT nerfed. Theres a thread somewhere here on how absorption and other defensive stats actually do NOTHING in pvp atm. I'd say that calls for a buff, not a nerf! I hate how people call for nerfs because they dont understand a game mechanic.

[Qeuzolt]

Another option would be to remove guard and radically buff taunts in PVP.

 

You could, for instance, remove guard but make taunt transfer 85% of damage to the tank for the duration. This would make tanks EXTREMELY effective at stopping burst from a single target for a period of time, but not the walking soul-links they currently are. This would obviate the need to balance for guard being up 100% of the time, and would reward active instead of passive tanking.

 

Would be cool, but the way BW nerfs things they will just make Guard only transfer 20% of the damage, then they will nerf all tanks damage by 15% because that will ensure no one will play the class in PVP

[GolgoXIII]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukirshiro

Another option would be to remove guard and radically buff taunts in PVP.

 

You could, for instance, remove guard but make taunt transfer 85% of damage to the tank for the duration. This would make tanks EXTREMELY effective at stopping burst from a single target for a period of time, but not the walking soul-links they currently are. This would obviate the need to balance for guard being up 100% of the time, and would reward active instead of passive tanking.

 

Would be cool, but the way BW nerfs things they will just make Guard only transfer 20% of the damage, then they will nerf all tanks damage by 15% because that will ensure no one will play the class in PVP

 

 

No it wouldn't because if a tank AoE taunts a group then it matters not who attacks what as the tanks suffers 85% damage. So you do the math 85% damage from people attacking what they like? instead of how it works now which is 6 enemy players have their damage reduced. You would have a tank that just dies all the time for no other reason than people don't bother stopping attacking what they are attacking.

 

Pretty simple it doesn't work, if it worked like how you want it too basically it would be a sucide bomb for the tank and no one would use it, why would they?. Guard only affects 1 person and that is it. You have been told by many people how to effectivly counter it.

[Leiloni]

 

There is a huge disconnect between people who have guard and people who don't.

 

I haven't read all 33 pages but I do think the OP has an interesting ideas and the above line is the one that for me was most important. Guard does need to be fixed in some way, but in doing so you'd have to make a lot of other changes as well (which is not a bad thing).

 

Currently the one person that is guarded is really hard to kill but everyone else who isn't is SoL. They're going to go down fast. Even healer's can't heal for as much as DPS can hit for so ungarded people are still taking too much damage. I think you could balance guard to make it less OP for the one person it's guarding while still giving tanks a purpose, which in turn would then let you remove the healing debuff and possibly also tone down overall damage output (too tired to give that last point enough thought). This would provide an even playing field for everyone involved.

 

The tank could still ensure certain people are more sturdy, but not unkillable, and the rest of the population would have a fighting chance because the guarded player is only slightly more survivable than everyone else. It should only give certain people a slight leg up. Healer's would be more effective and less reliable on tanks and full Expertise gear. Devs wouldn't have to balance the game around one out of balance ability only affecting one lucky player.

 

I feel like I need to give this post more thought but I don't have the brainpower to do so right now.....

 

 

If anything, I'd say tanking should be buffed or left as it is, NOT nerfed. Theres a thread somewhere here on how absorption and other defensive stats actually do NOTHING in pvp atm. I'd say that calls for a buff, not a nerf! I hate how people call for nerfs because they dont understand a game mechanic.

 

I think a tank's personal mitigation abilities are an entirely different issue from the Guard mechanic and the issues need to be talked about separately.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Leiloni

[JoeRetro]

Which means this one ability is causing probably 80% of the PVP balance discontent in the game.

 

78.26% of statistics are made up on the spot.