RagnarokJC Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Yeah, you got me. One has only to look around and see how miserably Star Wars is failing. It's such a barren desert out there. back at ya. Ah yes, the good old "It made a ton of money, so it must be good!" argument. We haven't heard that one in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell_Solo Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The Phantom Menace looks like Best Picture of the Year compared to the last Indiana Jones movie. Aliens and UFO's, seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comar Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The thing is, when he made the original trilogy he was influenced by his old phylosophy prof Joseph Campbell, Star Wars had a spiritual , mystic flavor. All the newer movies have only one purpose... to maximize the money income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmannseelo Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Ah yes, the good old "It made a ton of money, so it must be good!" argument. We haven't heard that one in a long time. "Good" is subjective. I'm simply talking about it's success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmannseelo Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The thing is, when he made the original trilogy he was influenced by his old phylosophy prof Joseph Campbell, Star Wars had a spiritual , mystic flavor. All the newer movies have only one purpose... to maximize the money income. The Prequels also have a heavy Campbell influence. Mythological themes abound. And unless you know Lucas personally then your supposition about his motives are nothing but unfounded speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 "Good" is subjective. I'm simply talking about it's success. That's nice, my point is that the amount of money a film makes isn't directly indicative of its quality. The Transformers films are good examples of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmannseelo Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) That's nice, my point is that the amount of money a film makes isn't directly indicative of its quality. The Transformers films are good examples of this. Neither is it indicative of a lack of quality. My point is that to somebody who loved the Transformers movies, they are quality. I'm not one of those people mind you, but I'm not going to look down on somebody over what they like. The Prequels, however, did not fail. They disappointed a lot of hardcore fans and I respect that, but Lucas didn't "ruin" his franchise. Star Wars is still going strong. Strong enough to where even those disgruntled with the films can read the books, watch the show, or even play this game. There are many sources of Star Wars enjoyment and a large part of that is due to the success of the Prequels. Edited January 24, 2012 by Jmannseelo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zag_Stratos Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I'll share my two cents as a composer/producer with a lifetime devotion to music and arts. It's hard creating something and getting it shred apart in front you. Its hard to create something that "you" believe will be big and only to realize that people do not want something new, they want the same old thing until some sort of mega cultural switch occurs. It's hard to keep fans happy because the moment you change something, a very large bunch can't cope with it. You create a legacy, you're stuck with it. Not everyone is Harrison Ford with enough luck to quickly become something different than Han Solo. I'm about to completely tone down the intensity of one of my bands. That's right, from Death Metal to simply hard and groovy rock. For the last 3 months, members of that band have been scared of how our little crowd will react and to be honest, they are right to be scared. 45K fans on reverbnation is NOT a lot. When we first announced that our little underground band was going in a different direction, we lost about 500 likes and got a bunch of angry mails. When I write for my personal project supported by my close friends and partners in the business. I get to fully explore my imagination, my current emotions and state of mind. Over the years, we've learned to just trust each other and hope that it will produce something great. In fact, on many occasion it did but I'll admit we had a few miss. When I have to write music for someone or for my more commercial project. The first thing that occurs is "complete re-edit of the original idea". Sometime, it's a good thing but sometimes it's a bad thing. You get into a war of who's right and start politely fighting over ideas. Eventually, you make compromises so that things can keep rolling out. It doesn't stop here, it's part of the entire creation process from who's playing the solo to how the artwork should look in the end. Sure, I could let it go and just let some random well paid artist to create that cover but trust me, he will probably be way off my original idea. It might be better and I might have been wrong but the point is, I had to let go of something I loved. Do this enough time in a lifetime and you'll soon start hating the entire process. Now take a good man like Lucas and extrapolate what I said by a billion times. Mostly because I'm not the next big thing and I didn't make a legacy like Star Wars. For the last 30 years or so, part of his life has been a blessing and the other part has been drowned in critiques, fan rages, death treats, people trying to steal his money, bad press, laughs and such. No matter what he did, the legacy of his first movie over shadowed everything else. I loved the last Indiana Jones and for the record, I thought the fridge scene was simply brilliant, simple and fun. Why did people went nuts over that? Because we're slaves to fans and they only want one thing, the same old cheese that you once gave them. That's one example out of millions (in Lucas case) So now, he's retiring, giving the ropes to anyone suicidal enough to take over the franchise and he will be doing little movies for art centers. You know what, he's going to be a happy man and in my book, he deserves that. I will be more than happy to see his work outside of Star Wars on a smaller budget. It will have something to say and in return, I hope it inspire me. For the record, I worked on two star wars games over the past 10 years and I have to say... it aint fun at all. No matter how hard everyone in the team tried, it was one of the most intense and worse moments in my life. Even within the dev teams, people were acting as spoiled fan boys... Edited January 24, 2012 by Zag_Stratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Neither is it indicative of a lack of quality. My point is that to somebody who loved the Transformers movies, they are quality. I'm not one of those people mind you, but I'm not going to look down on somebody over what they like. The Prequels, however, did not fail. They disappointed a lot of hardcore fans and I respect that, but Lucas didn't "ruin" his franchise. Star Wars is still going strong. Strong enough to where even those disgruntled with the films can read the books, watch the show, or even play this game. There are many sources of Star Wars enjoyment and a large part of that is due to the success of the Prequels. To *you*, Lucas didn't ruin his franchise. To many others, he did. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's funny that you don't look down on those who like the PT films while looking down on those who dislike them (re: your original comment that I replied to). Also, keep in mind that Lucas didn't personally create every product with the Star Wars label on it. Other people with arguably more competence than Lucas at storytelling, direction, etc, crafted products that keep the fanbase of the franchise going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDubious Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 success of the Prequels. Marketing Success only, the prequels failed to hold true to the original films' total lack of market drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassiopea Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'll share my two cents as a composer/producer with a lifetime devotion to music and arts. It's hard creating something and getting it shred apart in front you. Its hard to create something that "you" believe will be big and only to realize that people do not want something new, they want the same old thing until some sort of mega cultural switch occurs. It's hard to keep fans happy because the moment you [...] Lots of the things you say a true, but many of Lucas´ critics are pissed not about things that are considerably art, but things like consistancy and logic. I have to agree with one of the first page texts, lots of very talented people worked with the star wars theme. Many of em more talented then George Lucas. However I agree with you as far as seeing your work torn apart in front of you. Bur you have to be open minded enough to understand their arguments. Lots of stuff the fanboys heavily dislike are very legit. Still even the fan boys have very different opions. But there are others who pretty much share the I-stopped-listening-to-Linkin-Park-when-they-stopped-making-the-same-alubm-every-year-factions attitude. I personaly think, when we speak of the art style and CGI thing Lucas would make very very very different movies with the posibilities of today. On topic: However I think him retirering is a good thing for the franchise, since the whole "better writers" argument has a lot of weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmannseelo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) To *you*, Lucas didn't ruin his franchise. To many others, he did. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's funny that you don't look down on those who like the PT films while looking down on those who dislike them (re: your original comment that I replied to). I'm not looking down on anyone for disliking the Prequels. I just find some of the OTT anti-Lucas hyperbole amusing. Also, keep in mind that Lucas didn't personally create every product with the Star Wars label on it. Other people with arguably more competence than Lucas at storytelling, direction, etc, crafted products that keep the fanbase of the franchise going. I think it's safe to say that the movies are still the biggest factor in keeping the franchise going. Edited January 25, 2012 by Jmannseelo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmannseelo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Marketing Success only, the prequels failed to hold true to the original films' total lack of market drive. Are you saying that the the OT didn't have a full-stop marketing campaign behind them? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaveoneexpress Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is B.S. I can't believe we are NEVER gonna get Episode 7 8 & 9. I'm holding onto the hope that maybe someone else will make the films or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm not looking down on anyone for disliking the Prequels. I just find some of the OTT anti-Lucas hyperbole amusing. The fact is that Lucas is inextricably linked to the Star Wars franchise. He can take the credit, but he also has to take the blame. The problem is that Lucas hasn't demonstrated a willingness to own his mistakes, unlike directors like Spielberg, who acknowledged mistakes he made during the filming of Indy IV. I think it's safe to say that the movies are still the biggest factor in keeping the franchise going. I'll agree with this, but my point still stands: other people have made contributions to various works in the Star Wars universe, and they've helped keep the fanbase going. For that matter, other people helped Lucas with the OT films (like Brackett, Kurtz, and Kasdan, not to mention Kerschner and Marquand), so their contributions to his success shouldn't be overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helltroy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So do you think now we'll get either a 7,8 and 9 movies or Old Republic series. If they do they need to go back to sets, instead of green screens. I would love to see an Old republic series. As for episodes 1,2,3 I thought 2 kicked ***. you know the one with the least amount of acting and tons of action. Clone war Hell yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 George Lucas is a child. Worse, he's a child throwing a temper tantrum. Fact is, he made up an awesome universe, and, when there were people to reel back his more stupid ideas, he made a decent movie (The Empire Strikes Back, ftw!). But then a bunch of far-more-talented writers started playing in his universe and doing MUCH better jobs at it (Timothy Zahn, Mike Stackpole, Aaron Allston...). Those guys, the authors of the EU made Star Wars the mega-awesome, incredibly alive, and amazing universe that it is today. Those guys are why people are still hard-core fanatics about Star Wars. Most Star Wars fans will tell you they hate George Lucas. Why? Because he has a lot of really stupid ideas, and he's completely disconnected with his audience (i.e. - Gungans, Ewoks, and Midichlorians). He was throwing a tantrum with the prequels. He was basically saying, "No! These are my toys! And, I don't care that you've all done amazing things with them, they're mine. And, I'm going to do what I want with them! And, there's nothing you can do about it! Neener, neener, neener!" And, nobody could reign him in this time. He's the worst kind of "artist." He's the kind of artist who doesn't trust his audience, who doesn't think his audience is smart enough to get his story. He doesn't realize that once you publish or produce a work it's not "yours" anymore. Not in the strictest sense, anyway. Good writing will mean something slightly different to each person experiencing it. With the prequels, we got to see just what kind of writer Lucas was with such wonderfully cardboard lines as: "...I have trained you since you were a small boy." Obi-Wan says this to Anakin in ROTS, like he's talking to a stranger. Like he has to explain to Anakin that they've been hanging out for the past 20 years, practically living together, forming an almost father/son relationship. Like Anakin doesn't know who Obi-Wan is or why he should listen to him. or "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count." Are we watching DragonBall Z? Does Anakin have some kind of Force-o-Meter to tell him how good he is? Nobody would say that! Mr. Lucas is breaking a fundamental rule of good writing. He's using dialogue for exposition. His characters are literally describing things in their world for the audience. Instead of letting the action tell us how ****** Anakin is, he has his character come out and quantify it for us. Instead of trusting the audience to know who Obi-Wan and Anakin are by the time ROTS comes out, he has one of his characters come out and say it. This is stuff you learn in Creative Writing 101. One doesn't use dialogue for exposition. It's bad writing, and it's insulting to your audience. It's not enough that he makes boatloads of money off of every book/toy/videogame/comic/idea that has anything to do with Star Wars, he has to pull his wang out and remind everyone that it was his idea to start with. It's not enough that he's raking in cash off of people far more talented than he. It's not enough that people still love Star Wars because of these more talented people and the stories they've told within that universe. He can't just sit back and watch this beautiful universe unfold and grow and expand. He's got to remind everyone that it's not how he would have done it, and therefore, it's not "official." Well, Mr. Lucas, if you had kept it all to yourself; if you had told the story the way you wanted to, nobody would ever have read/watched it. You wouldn't have an infinite revenue stream. You wouldn't have Skywalker Ranch. You wouldn't have everything you have now. You'd be that nerd in a basement writing stories and making movies for his Mom as she reads and watches patiently, knowing they're terrible but massaging your ego anyway because you don't have any friends. Good, you're "retiring." Maybe now the universe will be just a little less stupid. Maybe now we won't have to endure things like beloved characters being killed off because you don't trust your audience to know the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Anakin Solo (because no two people in any universe have ever shared a name, George /sarcasm). Maybe now we won't have to endure gungans or the idea that teddy bears with sticks and rocks could defeat an army of trained and battle-hardened STORMTROOPERS wearing armor designed to deflect small-grade blaster fire. You know why you get hate-mail George? It's because you're that spoiled kid everyone knew growing up. You're the kid nobody wanted to play with after about half an hour because nobody would play the way you wanted them to. You get hate-mail because even though you're that jerk, you make unlimited amounts of money. You reap the rewards of those better suited to tell this story than you, and you're upset about it! You sit on a pile of money that you don't have to work for and then have the audacity to complain about and degrade the way that money gets there. Sure, you created the universe, bully for you. We'd like you better if you weren't such a dick about it. Sincerely, Myk Kind of like you and your page long cry thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Kind of like you and your page long cry thread. Why TK, it's been too long since I've seen your worthless troll posts in these kinds of threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Why TK, it's been too long since I've seen your worthless troll posts in these kinds of threads! Haters gonna hate, besides, i got tired of reading ignorance posted by wanna be e-thugs and pseudo-fanboys. Im out once more though, been here 10mins and all i see is more internet lucas hate (to wich the irony that thier on a star wars forum doesnt escape me), revanites, and canon noobs with no clue what thier posting. Have fun with the mouth breathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Haters gonna hate, besides, i got tired of reading ignorance posted by wanna be e-thugs and pseudo-fanboys. Im out once more though, been here 10mins and all i see is more internet lucas hate (to wich the irony that thier on a star wars forum doesnt escape me), revanites, and canon noobs with no clue what thier posting. Have fun with the mouth breathers. No, I like poking fun at the mouth breathers- go look in a mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No, I like poking fun at the mouth breathers- go look in a mirror. GD kid, that was fail. Try harder, or dont non factor, im out and could care less how stupid you make yourself look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokJC Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 GD kid, that was fail. Try harder, or dont non factor, im out and could care less how stupid you make yourself look. Thanks for proving my point with your reply. Back to your cave now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myk-Ron Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I hate repeating myself, but so many people are missing the point so entirely that I feel it needs to be said…again. We’re going to go back to the painting analogy. The Original Trilogy was a picture of a moment in a galaxy far, far away. We got a lovely little picture, and not much else. That is the extent of George Lucas’ work on Star Wars. He gave us the idea, and about 7-8 hours worth of story. He drew a picture of a lake. Then, he gave the galaxy over to other authors who went in and gave us the Expansive Universe that is Star Wars today. Those other authors took his picture of a lake, and added shorelines and mountains and beautiful vistas. They took his little picture, and gave it a background. They built around it until his little picture was now at the center of a gigantic mural. And, these other authors were, most of the time, better story-tellers than he was. So, in many cases, the scenery around the lake was of better quality than the lake itself. And, this went on for almost twenty years. During that time, George Lucas had next to no involvement in the creation of this galaxy. By his own admission, he’s never read any of the EU or really paid any attention to it. But, he gets paid for all of it. He gets to sit back at Skywalker Ranch, and collect an infinite stream of revenue generated by other, better authors. Then, after twenty or so years of making money for nothing, he realizes that he now has enough money to do whatever he wants (in large part due to the royalties he’s been making off other people’s work). So, with no hint of gratitude or even acknowledgment of the fact that the reason he can afford to do whatever he wants is due in large part to the dedication and work of these other artists, he decides to go back and change stuff. Fine. Whatever. If he were just going back and changing the original picture, if he were going back and making it better, I don’t think anyone would have any issue with it. But, he’s going back and drawing over the bigger picture. He’s going back and completely dismissing the work these other authors have done as superfluous. Yes, the original idea was his, and it’s a fantastic idea. And, yes, legally he has rights to all things “Star Wars.” But, we’re not talking about whether or not he CAN draw over these other artists’ work with a big black sharpie. We’re talking about whether he should have, and why people are a little miffed that he did. Most Star Wars fans are fans because of things that George Lucas did NOT make. Arguably, “Empire Strikes Back” was the best movie of the franchise, and I don’t think GL wrote or directed it. The reason the Star Wars galaxy is so deep and complex is because of the work of the authors of the EU, not George. From the perspective of a fan of Star Wars, George Lucas hasn’t actually contributed much of anything to the galaxy as a whole. He provided the idea, and a brief glimpse of a possible galaxy with the movies. When compared to the sheer size of the EU, and all the work that’s gone into making the galaxy what it is today, how much has he really contributed? And, yet, he has all the power. He’s not a very good writer (as clearly evidenced by the movies if you just pull back and look at the dialogue), but he had a really great idea. And, we’re all thankful of that, because, yes, without that starting point, none of this would exist. But, should that mean the guy who first thought of something is somehow beyond reproof? Again, I use the painting analogy. I paint a lake, and it’s okay (I’m not the best painter in the world, but I get the job done). I then allow a bunch of other, more talented painters to add to my painting of a lake. So they do. They make a giant mural around my little lake, and their stuff is awesome. All the while, I’m getting credit for their work because the idea was mine to start with. People who may not have even looked at my lake otherwise are starting to really like the idea. Twenty years go by, and my lake is a little dot in the middle of a HUGE mural. Don’t you think the people who’ve been enjoying this awesome mural would be a little miffed if I went in and started drawing over parts of it? Yes, I can do it. It was my idea that started it. But, I’m not very good at painting, and I’m painting over some of the other artists’ work. Doesn’t that make me kind of a jerk? That’s what people were upset about. The fact that there’s nothing anyone can do about it just made things worse. I hope that’s made things a little clearer. One last analogy; Kid A has a bunch of Legos, and he builds a nice little house. He then lets a bunch of other kids build houses and whatnot around his house making a whole Lego town. People in the neighborhood stop by all the time to see the awesome town. Time goes by and Kid A is now upset because the town is awesome, but it’s not quite the way he would have done it had he built the whole thing himself. They’re his Legos, so he knocks over a bunch of the other kids’ buildings and puts his own stuff over the ruins. And, because he’s not as good at building, his new stuff kinda sucks. They’re his Legos, and he can do whatever he wants. But, an outsider would see that, and see a spoiled brat throwing a fit. He knocked over something beautiful and put something less awesome in its place. He can do that, but, it’s a dick move, and, eventually, nobody is going to want to play with him anymore. I think people are more frustrated at the situation than anything else. There’s some really awesome stuff out here in the EU that people really like, but George can come back and draw over it with a big black sharpie whenever he feels like it even though he had no part in its creation aside from providing the starting point. Is that clearer? Does that not make sense? Or, is anyone actually reading this? =P - Myk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahrounmoon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Is that clearer? Does that not make sense? Or, is anyone actually reading this? =P - Myk For what it's worth, I'm with ya. But that was kind of a wall of text. I'll forgo my own analogies and comparisons to other contemporary authors who've built and destroyed their fan bases in the interest of helping you out. Would it be fair to say... When something becomes bigger than just one man, that man must consider the whole rather than just himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahrounmoon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just stop man, you have to be the maddest fan boy I have ever seen in my life. Get over it, the movies were not what you had imagined in your mind. At the end of the day it Lucas work his name is on it, its is bank account. It his everything. Just because you read a book that some one wrote, a story from there mind and your mad thats not what happened in the movies. ...were you confusing me and Myk because we have the same forum Avatar? Whether you agree with me or not, everything I've said has been pretty reasoned and I don't think I ever even mentioned the prequels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts