A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Snarlette]

I have a full champion geared vanguard and I can be knocked down and killed before I can even get back up and if I manage to get up I have a tiny sliver of life left and still get facerolled. Sorcerers have a ton of CC also, but at least with them I can actually interupt them and keep them close with grapple and charge and 1v1 kill them as much as they kill me, OP I have no chance at all against I can't even put up any amount of fight if they know *** they are doing.

[Steww]

Ops deserve a bit of a nerf, 1.11 might be a bit too extreme. To me cutting down the armor pen from flechette and reducing the knockback are fair and reasonable. The damage certainly deserves a nerf, but the bigger problem is definitely the surge stacking.

[Asnine]

So....

 

You make a huge long post, but you get a couple of things wrong. One of which is a biggie

 

1) Alacrity doesn't reduce your GCD

2) (The biggie) Force damage isn't a damage type - it doesn't necessarily bypass armor.....You have to read what the tooltip reads. For instance, Crushing Darkness could be a "force" attack, but it actually deals kinetic damage. Or force lightning actually deals energy damage....not force damage.

[Gravestrike]

So....

 

You make a huge long post, but you get a couple of things wrong. One of which is a biggie

 

1) Alacrity doesn't reduce your GCD

2) (The biggie) Force damage isn't a damage type - it doesn't necessarily bypass armor.....You have to read what the tooltip reads. For instance, Crushing Darkness could be a "force" attack, but it actually deals kinetic damage. Or force lightning actually deals energy damage....not force damage.

 

1. Actually alacrity does reduce the GCD for abilities if their cast or channel time drops below 1.5 seconds.

 

2. A lot of DPS from Sith Inquisitors comes from our DoTs (which are "internal damage" that does not get mitigated by armor).

 

Just helping out.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Gravestrike

[Raice]

1. Actually alacrity does reduce the GCD for abilities if their cast or channel time drops below 1.5 seconds.

 

2. A lot of DPS from Sith Inquisitors comes from our DoTs (which are "internal damage" that does not get mitigated by armor).

 

Just helping out.

 

Thanks for the assist. Either way - I'll correct this in the OP as misinformation is as bad as wrong information. This is an oversight on my part - not a lie to justify my truth. You would think that writing nearly 15 pages worth of information.... in my free time.... without expecting any sort of compensation.... that they would give a guy a break on relatively minor details like this.

 

"OH NO BUDDY! You spelled anti-disestablishmentarianism wrong. This entire argument is garbage!"

 

 

Also, either way, (to the other guy) 1.5s vs 1.3s is irrelevent. Anyone complaining that they will have a chance at winning a fight because they gained .2s (or don't gain) is.... reaching for straws and trying to justify an unnecessary nerf. Nothing about my argument hinges on the GCD being 1.5s or 1.3s. In fact... a 1.3s makes our Stuns even MORE worthless because they have even LESS time before they can respond.

 

 

For some reason, these guys aren't making the correlation that if they reduce our Critical Damage output..... THEY AREN'T GOING TO DIE IN 5-7s.

 

*shrug* I've done all the work on this. They're just not accepting it. Changing Flechette Round and KO is NOT the solution. Ignoring the facts is..... well.... ignorant.

[-COBRA-]

rofl are u so desperate about that nerf? isnt an overnerf and was well deserved, CUZ U NEED TO COMPARE THE OVERPOWERNESS OF CONCEALMENT TREE VS THE LACK OF BURST AND DAMAGE OF ASSASSIN INF. SPEC!! Why op need to do so much dmg in no time while the other stealther isnt even a threat?? why u can wtfpwn tanks in no time with ur big armor debuff?? tanks are supposed to be a counter to you, mind u.

[RoadtoArkham]

rofl are u so desperate about that nerf? isnt an overnerf and was well deserved, CUZ U NEED TO COMPARE THE OVERPOWERNESS OF CONCEALMENT TREE VS THE LACK OF BURST AND DAMAGE OF ASSASSIN INF. SPEC!! Why op need to do so much dmg in no time while the other stealther isnt even a threat?? why u can wtfpwn tanks in no time with ur big armor debuff?? tanks are supposed to be a counter to you, mind u.

 

Y u no write good?

[Supercaptain]

I have a full champion geared vanguard and I can be knocked down and killed before I can even get back up and if I manage to get up I have a tiny sliver of life left and still get facerolled. Sorcerers have a ton of CC also, but at least with them I can actually interupt them and keep them close with grapple and charge and 1v1 kill them as much as they kill me, OP I have no chance at all against I can't even put up any amount of fight if they know *** they are doing.

 

This is just a downright lie? How much health do you have, max an equally geared scoundrel's opener could do is 10k (and that's with 100% crits) and then you'll have a full resolve bar. If you say you're a 50 in PvP gear getting killed within the 3 second stun timer you are downright, 100% lying. It is completely impossible.

[Gunlaugr]

This is good work Raice. However, you have to accept that developers are going to make changes that may seem to ''ignore facts'' as you put it. What you have written and proposed makes sense, but before we see the current nerfs implemented, we can't truly say what it will be like. This is a fact. You can't completely predict the outcome. On paper and ''real life'' are simply not always the same.

 

With that said, I do agree that your suggestion is much more reasonable than those proposed by bioware.

 

I hope your work will have an impact.

[Raice]

This is good work Raice. However, you have to accept that developers are going to make changes that may seem to ''ignore facts'' as you put it. What you have written and proposed makes sense, but before we see the current nerfs implemented, we can't truly say what it will be like. This is a fact. You can't completely predict the outcome. On paper and ''real life'' are simply not always the same.

 

With that said, I do agree that your suggestion is much more reasonable than those proposed by bioware.

 

I hope your work will have an impact.

 

I agree 100%. I think this is a reasonable argument.

 

Be that as it may, if the theory holds true on paper, then it must also be argued on paper. I sort of chalk this whole thing up in that sort of realm of "factual evidence." You know? You can present this on paper as a solution. I can present a reasonable argument on paper that it is not a solution, as well as present an alternative on paper - which can in turn then be argued in kind.

 

The point is, I have no way of testing my theory but on paper. In an applicable scientific approach - I'm pretty much unable to test it unless the devs consider it. And for my part, unless they test this alternative, or some other alternative, then they haven't looked into the possibility of better solutions. Either way, the theory is still sound - optimal word "theory."

 

Good post, friend!

[Ethurian]

Sorc and Sages do not bypass armor completely.

Force lightning does NOT bypass armor.

 

They have skills, like most classes, that use Elemental/Internal damage which DOES bypass armor. IE: DoT damage is normally internal.

[Raice]

rofl are u so desperate about that nerf? isnt an overnerf and was well deserved, CUZ U NEED TO COMPARE THE OVERPOWERNESS OF CONCEALMENT TREE VS THE LACK OF BURST AND DAMAGE OF ASSASSIN INF. SPEC!! Why op need to do so much dmg in no time while the other stealther isnt even a threat?? why u can wtfpwn tanks in no time with ur big armor debuff?? tanks are supposed to be a counter to you, mind u.

 

This pretty much sums up the people supporting 1.11. They are taking this personally, saying WE (Smugglers/Ops) as PLAYERS of a game WE DID NOT DESIGN, DESERVE this sort of treatment to our class. We DESERVE to be cut off from being effective in any functional sense, because the numbers maybe didn't work out "as intended." Like we had anything to do with that....

 

This is not a fair and balanced decision making perspective. Anyone who can't see that is emotionally compromised and focused on self-interest bias, is not looking at the bigger picture. The OP never once made this sort of fowl assertion toward another player.

 

Did it tell you to get off our backs about stuff we don't control? Absolutely - quite harshly, in fact. But it never said another class of any kind deserves to be broken based on wild results in the math that is beyond a player's control to manipulate in the first place. And it certainly never blamed the player itself for being responsible for fallacies in the balance.

 

This alone should be enough to prove to anyone where my true intent lies. I am looking at the bigger picture. Every class is important. I address players for their behaviors, not class imbalance. My post is NOT biased.

[Raice]

Sorc and Sages do not bypass armor completely.

Force lightning does NOT bypass armor.

 

They have skills, like most classes, that use Elemental/Internal damage which DOES bypass armor. IE: DoT damage is normally internal.

 

This has already been brought up and I am in the process of revising my OP. I'm capable of making mistakes, and I am capable of admitting when I was wrong. I was wrong, here.

 

Nevertheless, that entire portion of the post doesn't even need to exist. Sorcs/Sages actually have nothing to do with what is wrong with Scrapper/Concealment.

 

 

ADDITION::

 

I fixed it. The argument is, now, better than ever!

Edited January 27, 2012 by Raice

[mrswyp]

Nice post. Agree with 90% of it. Pretty much sums up what I feel.

 

People seem to forget that the 2 things that make scoundrel/operatives so strong, stealth and burst, also is their weakness. Catch them out of stealth or break their stealth ... they die easily. Trinket their initial stun and they are easily kited.

 

Playing a healer atm and scoundrels are the least of my worries. Sith warrior and jedi warriors just cut true me like butter without having any chance of kiting them or getting away. Sorcerers/consulars have a sick amount of dps. not calling out for a nerf just every class has it's strenghts and weaknesses. learn how to deal with them instead of crying for nerfs... just know your class might and will be next.

[Ethurian]

This has already been brought up and I am in the process of revising my OP. I'm capable of making mistakes, and I am capable of admitting when I was wrong. I was wrong, here.

 

Nevertheless, that entire portion of the post doesn't even need to exist. Sorcs/Sages actually have nothing to do with what is wrong with Scrapper/Concealment.

 

 

ADDITION::

 

I fixed it. The argument is, now, better than ever!

 

Misinformation spreads like a wildfire.

 

Outside of that I agree with most everything you've said. The damage that you can do via crits is really where the trouble starts. I found it strange they didn't tone down your crit potential, and are instead making some changes elsewhere. I will say thought that the acidblade nerf is not necessarily a bad thing. 50% armor mitigation plus a DoT is a little over the top. 30% is still worthy of mention.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Ethurian

[Aidank]

Err, why are you calculating the 20% arpen nerf as a 20% damage nerf? It's not.

 

 

Classes generally have between 15-40% reduction from armor... that means the 20% nerf is only a 3-8% damage nerf.

[Raice]

Misinformation spreads like a wildfire.

 

Outside of that I agree with most everything you've said. The damage that you can do via crits is really where the trouble starts. I found it strange they didn't tone down your crit potential, and are instead making some changes elsewhere. I will say thought that the acidblade nerf is not necessarily a bad thing. 50% armor mitigation plus a DoT is a little over the top. 30% is still worthy of mention.

 

If they reduce our Critical Damage, then the AP is needed more than ever. I mean... look - our base damage is nothing to write home about anyway - which is why out sustained damage is so poor. Then again, maybe if they reduce our Critical Damage, the AP would still need to be reduced? That's a perfectly viable scenario to consider.

 

I think my biggest gripe about this nerf, though, is they didn't even address the actual problem. To me - that's really what I can't for the life of me understand. Even if that other stuff with KO and Flechette Round were to still be on the map - the fact that they completely ignored the actual problem is what boggles my mind here.

[Raice]

Err, why are you calculating the 20% arpen nerf as a 20% damage nerf? It's not.

 

 

Classes generally have between 15-40% reduction from armor... that means the 20% nerf is only a 3-8% damage nerf.

 

I... don't think you understood what I said on that subject.

 

My Armor Penetration reduces the effectivity of your Armor Value, which reduces the Base Damage applied to you. In a round about way - it IS a damage nerf. However, this nerf will only be effectively seen in cases when we fight Heavy Armor classes. We have a hard time with them anyway. Anyone who says different, is not geared correctly. Anyone who gears a Heavy Armor Class correctly, and any Scrap/Con will tell you - we lose to these guys 7/10 times (generally speaking) even now when without a nerf. That's an important figure because it shows the balance that Heavy Armor is working as intended when the class is geared properly to stack their Shield Rating and Absorption Rating.

 

You hear Tanks say they get "owned" a lot. They aren't geared correctly to defend against us because they die by our Burst Critical Damage - not the AP. With Heavies that are geared properly, they say exactly opposite, "I laugh whenever a silly Rogue tries to hit me. I swat him down and keep moving." Unless the Scrapper/Op is really on their game... this is generally what happens when they attack a properly geared Tank. This is balanced perfectly.

 

Reducing my Armor Penetration means your Armor works better. Unfortunately, Heavy Armor classes (who have the best Armor Ratings in the game) utilize Shield Rating and Absorption - which is what effects my Critical Damage. Essentially, their ability to Absorb my Critical Damage means my Base Damage has to work. If their Absorption isn't meeting the standards of what a Tank should have - the Base Damage is irrelevant, because my Critical Damage does the job. This can be avoided by the Tank stacking Absorption and Shield Rating - instead of Crit and Surge. They will never be able to out Crit me by virtue of the fact that I use Instant Casts. Even if they spike higher than me (which they can and do), they will not be able to keep up with me. I attack 2-3 times for every 1 time they attack.

 

In practice, this means that when I am duking it out with a properly geared Tank, the only thing being applied in this situation is the effective constant Base Damage, and the occasional Critical Hit by each of us. The frequency of my Critical Hit is reduced by the frequency of their Shield Rating, and the frequency of their Crit Chance is relatively miniscule, because they aren't geared to take advantage of Critical Hits - which means it's balanced out.

 

They still have the advantage of the fight, however, because, relatively speaking, they will have more powerful constant Base Damage than I will, by virtue of the fact that they will probably have lots of Power (which increases their Base Damage) and I am wearing Medium Armor - which has an Armor Value significantly less than their Heavy Armor. This is where Flechette Round and KO come into play.

 

Flechette Round only gives me 15s of AP, and it is only triggered by 2 attacks that make it so I HAVE to be behind the target to use. So it's not like I can have this up at all times. If I don't have a stun available (which is made possible by the nerf to KO)... then I generally won't be using this except on my Opener. If they nerf KO - I won't get a stun.... ever, and I cannot keep the buff on my AP to counter the fact that they have significantly superior Armor Values. I've already shown how nerfing KO breaks all of my Stuns (which I only have 3.)

 

My AP and my opening 3s Stun are vital. You cannot nerf these. They are the most important skills in my Tree. You can tell because we are literally nothing more than WZ fodder until we get them at level 31 but cannot take advantage of until around 38-40. This is precisely why Scrapper/Concealment is NOT a spec conducive of grinding levels. Anyone who's done it will tell you this.

 

Underdog is too strong. It IS what is making my Class overpowered when combined with the buffs and the gear variety. Nerfing Underdog is the easiest thing in the world to do. It's even easier than nerfing the other 2.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Raice

[Ryotknife]

as a PT, i would rather fight two sorcs at the same time than 1 operator. i would at least last longer.

 

its hard to learn how to fight against a class when most of the battles last 6 seconds at most. that said, it would not surprise me in the least if this nerf was overboard, it tends to happen to burst heavy specs.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Raice]

as a PT, i would rather fight two sorcs at the same time than 1 operator. i would at least last longer.

 

its hard to learn how to fight against a class when most of the battles last 6 seconds at most. that said, it would not surprise me in the least if this nerf was overboard, it tends to happen to burst heavy specs.

 

Reducing our Critical Damage is precisely what reducing our Burst Damage means. You die in 6s because we do too much damage in that time. Other classes stun you for longer, and you don't die. Why? Because they don't do enough Damage. We do too much Critical Damage.

 

My Stuns and my Armor Penetration have absolutely nothing to do with my Critical Damage.

[noctred]

somehow everyone overlook that 3sec KB cannot be "escaped"

 

Can't say I read the whole thread, but just wanted to point out that this is wrong. Also, all the level 50 people who claim to get killed before the knockdown is even up are either heavily undergeared in relation to the operative that killed them or are simply exaggerating - or are referring to situations prior to the expertise stacking nerf.

 

The only time a concealment operative can actually kill me that fast in a warzone is if my trinket is down and I'm under 75% health, and even then it's a tough sell without a lot of kiting after the knockdown - I play a medic op, which is probably one of their easier targets, comparatively speaking.

 

Otherwise, just trinket the knockdown instantly and debilitate, pop shield probe if they break the debilitate, Rakata medpac if you have one, whatever. Substitute comparable skills if you play a different class. At that point, they either keep chasing you around and get owned by your team or vanish and run away.

 

The point is: keeping yourself topped off + trinket > concealment operative almost always assuming you aren't massively outgeared.

 

The nerf in its current state is pretty much unnecessary because of how simple it is to counter their initial opener.

Edited January 27, 2012 by noctred

[NrA_Seether]

all the level 50 people who claim to get killed before the knockdown is even up are either heavily undergeared in relation to the operative that killed them or are simply exaggerating - or are referring to situations prior to the expertise stacking nerf.

 

^

this

 

Spam is strong with all those qqers "OMGigotkilled-Icouldn'tevengetup"

It's a lie, you simply can't kill same equipped person in KO 'stun'. Maybe with biochem/expertise stacking buffs (i couldn't know, i don't have biochem). That means go QQ about biochem, not about scoundrels/ops.

 

nuff said

[maximusedward]

Those tears are so delicious please continue on

Why is this hybrid class suppose to outdps its counterpart?

[Raice]

Updated with a TL;DR version for your viewing pleasure.