Why do people like Open World PvP?

[KurtDunn]

I am genuinely curious. I know the theory behind it. Worlds and territories that are contested warzones where combat can happen at any time and inspires an amount of cautious paranoia from people within them.

 

However in practice I almost always see one faction of overwhelming numbers taking out people alone, or in small groups. Or fully stealthed groups striking when unexpected, then hiding when any opposition is formed against them.

 

Or, to get into world PvP, you need to join a big, serious PvP guild to compete in the big PvP objectives. Casuals or simply people without alot of free time are not welcome, and they will be left behind.

 

So I am making this post to ask if I am terribly mistaken. What's so great about world PvP and open PvP that it is worth Bioware's efforts to attempt to create and foster? I say attempt because I don't think they're doing a good job of making it work, and I think the game is suffering because of it.

[Orrow]

I am genuinely curious. I know the theory behind it. Worlds and territories that are contested warzones where combat can happen at any time and inspires an amount of cautious paranoia from people within them.

 

However in practice I almost always see one faction of overwhelming numbers taking out people alone, or in small groups. Or fully stealthed groups striking when unexpected, then hiding when any opposition is formed against them.

 

Or, to get into world PvP, you need to join a big, serious PvP guild to compete in the big PvP objectives. Casuals or simply people without alot of free time are not welcome, and they will be left behind.

 

So I am making this post to ask if I am terribly mistaken. What's so great about world PvP and open PvP that it is worth Bioware's efforts to attempt to create and foster? I say attempt because I don't think they're doing a good job of making it work, and I think the game is suffering because of it.

 

The only answers your going to get are people saying "World PvP is great when done right" followed by everyone arguing over what done right means.

[KurtDunn]

People reference DAoC frequently when making that argument. I've done a little research and I've learned that DAoC ONLY had open world PvP.

 

There were not Warzones/Battleground analogues. There was not alternative for PvP, so of course there was massive turnout for PVP, and the people doing it had to be all serious. From a distance, it looks exclusionary.

[Forkrul]

For me it's fighting with a group of people I know against the zerg. I don't care how many imps there are so long as they outnumber us by a fair margin. Even numbers are only fun if the enemy is just as well organised and outnumbering the enemy is just plain boring.

[Haeso]

I am genuinely curious. I know the theory behind it. Worlds and territories that are contested warzones where combat can happen at any time and inspires an amount of cautious paranoia from people within them.

 

However in practice I almost always see one faction of overwhelming numbers taking out people alone, or in small groups. Or fully stealthed groups striking when unexpected, then hiding when any opposition is formed against them.

 

Or, to get into world PvP, you need to join a big, serious PvP guild to compete in the big PvP objectives. Casuals or simply people without alot of free time are not welcome, and they will be left behind.

 

So I am making this post to ask if I am terribly mistaken. What's so great about world PvP and open PvP that it is worth Bioware's efforts to attempt to create and foster? I say attempt because I don't think they're doing a good job of making it work, and I think the game is suffering because of it.

 

You've never played a game with good world PvP. SWTOR is not one of them.

[ThuaThal]

Open world PvP is awesome for two reasons.

 

1: In areas as Illum there is ground for MASSIVE fights and a playground for using tactics of all kinds. Its just fun if you are a pvp'er for the sake of pvp.

 

2: Normal open world pvp as it is on pvp servers is fun because you know that behind every corner can stand a guy with a red lightsaber and a bad mood. Its very thrilling. I have played on two pvp servers on each side of the fence and in general people are "nice" and don't camp a lot. Sometimes they do but in general it has been to secure an objective area for friends. We have done it ourselves. Sometimes it sparks big fights, other times you just have to go do something else for a bit.

 

I fully recognise not all people like this kind of game play and luckily we have servers where these people can go and play the way they like. I'm just an adrenaline junkie so, pvp it is.

[Evuke]

ilum does not equal open world pvp, ilum is an abomination of an instanced warzone

 

open world pvp = swg pre-cu, eq1, ac1, ac2, uo, eve, daoc, even vanguard on the ffa server had amazing open world pvp (no arenas, no battlegrounds, just pure, open world pvp action anywhere at any time)

Edited January 23, 2012 by Evuke

[fest]

I love the people that say they love world PvP because it's not always the same thing and you can overcome the other side even when you're outnumbered but then they come on the forums and complain about being outnumbered and ask for balance.

 

Hilarious. You wanna know where you'll get PvP with balanced numbers? Instances.

[Haeso]

I love the people that say they love world PvP because it's not always the same thing and you can overcome the other side even when you're outnumbered but then they come on the forums and complain about being outnumbered and ask for balance.

 

Hilarious. You wanna know where you'll get PvP with balanced numbers? Instances.

 

Darkfall I could win 1v6 regularly. Went down a bit as both sides increased, 1:3 was still a pretty easy win before it became too laggy for skill to matter. (Hundred+ on each side, none of this lagging with 30 people bull **** that is Ilum.)

 

AoC I could win 1:4 regularly with my group or solo. More if I jumped them PvEing or was running around on the rooftops in Keshatta.

 

AC:DT, different game same story.

 

 

 

The simple fact of the matter is the problem with this game isn't solely the numbers - it's the fact that skill means very little. In darkfall a good player could easily win 2v1 against bads, hell, he'd come out with full HP/Stam and missing a bit of mana. And a great player would take that even further.

 

In SWTOR however, unless you're playing a very burst heavy class against undergeared re-re's you will never win 1v2. It's the nature of the beast with a relatively 'balanced' game and tab target. Without the need to aim or direct any attacks manually, the game devolves into math.

 

Lets take two Sorc's versus a sage. All DPS specced, same spec overall. The two DPS sorc can outheal the sage's damage while continuing to deal damage to the sage, or blow up the sage before he can kill either of them much less both of them. There's literally nothing for the lone player to do. He can't dodge attacks, at best he could be healing spec and try to survive by losing for a while - but he'd never beat them unless they were utterly terrible players. But in a game with aiming? Not so much.

 

 

Lets look at another game, DAoC. DAoC had standard targeting, even had autoface. But you know what DAoC had this game doesn't? A huge amount of CC, much of which was AoE. Sure an 8 man team usually lost to 20+, but there was the possibility that they could bottleneck em and kill em all with a well placed mez -> kill one -> kill one and other strategies.

 

There's simply very little room in SWTOR for skill to shine, and it makes world PvP all about the numbers. And while DAoC had part of this problem it also had another trick up it's sleeve - Three factions. No faction ever had more than 50% of the population in all but extremely rare servers to my knowledge if at all. What this meant was, whenever one started winning, the other two could band together and push them back. It was almost impossible for one faction to truly dominate the server because of this. But there is no such failsafe in SWTOR, combined with the abysmally low skill ceiling especially as group sizes grow larger because of limited targets hit aoes, this game just has very little going for it.

[Tsaru]

People reference DAoC frequently when making that argument. I've done a little research and I've learned that DAoC ONLY had open world PvP.

 

Apparently not enough research. DAoC had battlegrounds added shortly after release. They were a major part of players leveling their Realm Ranks for the open areas which later became Frontiers.

 

Even their Battlegrounds were better than more recent games versions.

 

Then Mythic epic failed in bringing the same playstyle to Warhammer Online.

 

Personally, DAoC will remain king of Player vs Player.

 

*Bring on the AoE Mez's* =)

[Fraeg]

ilum does not equal open world pvp, ilum is an abomination of an instanced warzone

 

open world pvp = swg pre-cu, eq1, ac1, ac2, uo, eve, daoc

 

Wow pvp servers before they ever introduced battlegrounds. Yes, WoW, there I said it. There was great small scale pvp open world pvp on the server i was on. As soon as battlegrounds were introduced it basically vanished overnight.

[Stellarex]

Wow pvp servers before they ever introduced battlegrounds. Yes, WoW, there I said it. There was great small scale pvp open world pvp on the server i was on. As soon as battlegrounds were introduced it basically vanished overnight.

 

 

The reason why this vanished was not only due to battleground instances but also their high warlord system which required pvp gear grind in order to compete.

[Garton]

Played eve for 5 years and aion for a year and a half i am used to open world pvp, eve in my opinion is still the most ruthless game you can play in terms of pvp but thats another story. However to answer your question why people like open world pvp. Well i think everybody will have a different opinion on the matter, for me just having the idea that someone can and will attack me while i am just minding my own business just gets me going. Sure enough i have fallen prey aswell only to feel the need to go back out there and get my vengeance.

 

And i will admit that does not always go so well since some people simply know how to play the game they are playing. As too why people zerg... If you ask me its just human nature we seek strength in numbers and lets face its not like someone has won a war alone.

 

I myself are guilty of this aswell, infact in both eve and aion if you went out alone chances of you running into a group of 5 or more were more then likely so i never understood the whole concept of 1vs1 since it rarely happens. But also i enjoyed playing with other people and having good laughs on teamspeak, and just having moments where we started with 5 people and ended up in a huge war with 50vs50 or on eve this number would go in the hundreds its the unpredictability thats so awesome about open world pvp.

 

However in the cases it would happen and swtor is no different. Alot of people that are alone and see me or anybody else coming at them ALONE tend to turn around and run like they are being chased by 60 guys and wont engage unless someone from their side all of sudden pops up and helps them.

 

On swtor i had some really odd moments where i was put in a 2vs1 and got one of the people almost down and the other guy just takes off leaving his buddy for me to finish.

I mean once your in combat whats the point in trying to run away in a game like swtor. Its not like there is a strike against you you don't lose anything do people really dislike losing that much. If you lose get back up learn from it and think ahead and replay the skirmish in your head to see if you could have done something differently and use that in other engagements, well atleast that is how i have been doing it for years.

[KurtDunn]

Apparently not enough research. DAoC had battlegrounds added shortly after release. They were a major part of players leveling their Realm Ranks for the open areas which later became Frontiers.

 

Even their Battlegrounds were better than more recent games versions.

 

Then Mythic epic failed in bringing the same playstyle to Warhammer Online.

 

Personally, DAoC will remain king of Player vs Player.

 

*Bring on the AoE Mez's* =)

 

You know very well that the 'battlegrounds' were a more organized form of open world PvP. Stop fiddling around with semantics. :\

[BegaTasty]

People reference DAoC frequently when making that argument. I've done a little research and I've learned that DAoC ONLY had open world PvP.

 

There were not Warzones/Battleground analogues. There was not alternative for PvP, so of course there was massive turnout for PVP, and the people doing it had to be all serious. From a distance, it looks exclusionary.

 

You were reading some silly site that has never played Daoc. DAoc had Battlegrounds, 1 for 20-24

30-34

40-44

(from memory)

The BG's in Daoc were suprub, because each BG was size of a zone in Tor, an with huge bonuses for people who wanted to grind mobs in the BG's as well as fight. or they could just go fight if they wished.

But even our BG's had objectives usually Castles to take an hold. Once you gained it you upgraded it an then Vendors spawned inside them. From there on it was a war of attrition.

There was no shiny farming in Daoc, we actually understood how pvp works, not this insult to human IQ we have today.

 

The reason people turned out on mass for world pvp was for realm pride. We fought because it was a threat to us all. As well as Defending Darkness Falls dungeon. Youg ones today wouldn't play Daoc pvp, because the classes were too powerful an too varied for you to have fun. You'd be constantly demanding everyone be nerfed.

Edited January 23, 2012 by BegaTasty

[BegaTasty]

ilum does not equal open world pvp, ilum is an abomination of an instanced warzone

 

open world pvp = swg pre-cu, eq1, ac1, ac2, uo, eve, daoc

 

Well said man, an very true.

[Rykke]

This will probably be easier to digest for some of the board readers here when put in some comparison with WoW.

 

Griefing/Ganking is not world PvP, people who defend it obviously can't PvP worth their salt and must stack odds in their favor.

 

That beaten to death of an attempt they call Illum is not World PvP. It's safe to say even at this point, Wintergrasp > Illum as a pseudo-instanced World PvP Area.

 

True World PvP is created when people collide in a competition for territory out in the open world. World PvP the clash between different hunting parties all camping for that same rare boss spawn. It should be of natural order for World PvP to happen; instead, nothing in SWTOR even encourages that. The Sunwell patch brought forth a new daily quest hub that was not a sanctuary, guess what happened? World PvP. A Korean MMO Ragnarok Online would have guilds fight over castles leading to massive realm wide Guild(s) vs Guild(s).

 

World PvP doesn't have to be too complicated. It needs to be inclusive and accessible to get the masses in. Give the people a good enough reason to fight and a standing chance, they will do it.

 

The biggest problem though really for SWTOR at this moment, is the population imbalance. Wait for GW2 for their take on DAoC's tried and true formula on World PvP if you are truly into these battles for their massive size and just want a good fight.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Rykke

[Spincels]

Even the battlegrounds in daoc were not instanced like the ones you see today. I t was a zone with a big keep in the middle that you had the option of assaulting. No points, no rules, just pvp. They kept it simple which is how it needs to be. Plus the whole point of the game was to pvp, not kill monsters.

 

ps wtb 3 realms (gw2)

Edited January 23, 2012 by Spincels

[KurtDunn]

Even the battlegrounds in daoc were not instanced like the ones you see today. I t was a zone with a big keep in the middle that you had the option of assaulting. No points, no rules, just pvp. They kept it simple which is how it needs to be. Plus the whole point of the game was to pvp, not kill monsters.

 

ps wtb 3 realms (gw2)

 

Hence why I call that open world PvP.

[BegaTasty]

This will probably be easier to digest for some of the board readers here when put in some comparison with WoW.

 

Griefing/Ganking is not world PvP, people who defend it obviously can't PvP worth their salt and must stack odds in their favor.

 

That beaten to death of an attempt they call Illum is not World PvP. It's safe to say even at this point, Wintergrasp > Illum as a pseudo-instanced World PvP Area.

 

True World PvP is created when people collide in a competition for territory out in the open world. World PvP the clash between different hunting parties all camping for that same rare boss spawn. It should be of natural order for World PvP to happen; instead, nothing in SWTOR even encourages that. The Sunwell patch brought forth a new daily quest hub that was not a sanctuary, guess what happened? World PvP. A Korean MMO Ragnarok Online would have guilds fight over castles leading to massive realm wide Guild(s) vs Guild(s).

 

World PvP doesn't have to be too complicated. It needs to be inclusive and accessible to get the masses in. Give the people a good enough reason to fight and a standing chance, they will do it.

 

The biggest problem though really for SWTOR at this moment, is the population imbalance. Wait for GW2 for their take on DAoC's tried and true formula on World PvP if you are truly into these battles for their massive size and just want a good fight.

 

Only thing I disagree on with you si "ganking" there really is no such thing as ganking an griefing. There is pvp. Red is dead is all that is. Every single red is a valid an vital kill, an should be hammered at every opportunity. Other than that, pretty well stated.

[IceManLoneWolf]

It's thrilling knowing that at any moment you could be attacked. It also adds a bit of random flavor to the grind of leveling.

 

Open world PVP in SWTOR felt almost non-existent to me though.

[BegaTasty]

Even the battlegrounds in daoc were not instanced like the ones you see today. I t was a zone with a big keep in the middle that you had the option of assaulting. No points, no rules, just pvp. They kept it simple which is how it needs to be. Plus the whole point of the game was to pvp, not kill monsters.

 

ps wtb 3 realms (gw2)

 

Not quite mate, there was pve in Thidranki too. You got huge exp bonuses if you had the bottle to pve in there.

[newport]

3 sides greatly aided the fun factor of DAoCs open world pvp

[KilllerRock]

I love the people that say they love world PvP because it's not always the same thing and you can overcome the other side even when you're outnumbered but then they come on the forums and complain about being outnumbered and ask for balance.

 

Hilarious. You wanna know where you'll get PvP with balanced numbers? Instances.

 

 

People complain about being out numbered because this game has the same problem of warhammer where the out numbered faction can do nothing to over come it.

 

When you allow an organized group of players to defeat an unorganized zerg, it lessens the QQ about numbers.

 

DAoC had a few ways to make it possible for the out numbered faction to still win a fight against overwhelming forces.

 

1) 3 factions...2 lesser factions can team up against the bigger faction.

 

2) AoE long duration crowd control that had no limit on how many people it can effect. None of this "Can only effect a max of 5 players" You could AoE mez 50 people for 10-30 seconds if 50 people decided to stand all within 10m of eachother. (which a lot did because of auto follow laziness)

 

3) AoE damage, same as above. was not limited to hitting just 5 targets, 1 caster could hit 20-50 players.

 

4) Kiting was possible, because there weren't mounts. Everyone was on foot, you had to have a speed class to keep up which made kiting possible.

 

Now current MMO's ruin any chance of the out numbered winning against overwhelming odds by having 2 factions, limiting the duration of CC, limiting the effected people, limiting the effectived people of AoE damage, and making it so people on foot trying to kite, cant because mounts are in the game.

[Haeso]

4) Kiting was possible, because there weren't mounts. Everyone was on foot, you had to have a speed class to keep up which made kiting possible.

 

This is something I harp on regularly in mumble, but I always forget on the forums - the larger zerg can simply leave a few people behind mounted up to circle around behind and simply prevent the other team from escaping by keeping them in combat. If there were no mounts or you could mount in combat, the smaller groups wouldn't be so handicapped. But as is, when heavily outnumbered you cannot do a fighting retreat because any zerger that falls behind simply mounts up and is there in a flash.