No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[sjmc]

Expecting to win the loot Bioware created for your class is not entitlement.

Can we call agree that people should not roll need on gear that is class-restricted unless they are that class? Companions do not have a class.

[Eldren]

@ LogicalPremise:

 

Thanks for your research. I'd be curious to see a location where you put your actual screenshots and math comparisons for verification purposes.

 

This said, while that's potentially very useful information (and definitely appreciated), we need to deal with the realities here:

 

1) The statistical majority of the playerbase in this game are not regular participants, or even viewers, of these forums.

 

2) A given player's perception of "Need" will often vary greatly from another player's due to a variety of mutable factors.

 

3) Consequently, a given player is likely to pursue upgrades with the motivation which most closely aligns with their goals. If a player's goal is to insure a majority of others on their server are well-geared so they have a larger pool of potential party/raid members to draw from, they're more likely to pass up items that are not a specific and narrowly-defined upgrade for their class. If a player's goal is to keep themselves upgraded for solo content, they're going to ascribe greater weight to a companion's gear, and pursue all available upgrade paths.

[Eldren]

Can we call agree that people should not roll need on gear that is class-restricted unless they are that class? Companions do not have a class.

 

I'd be happy to agree not to roll on an item that's class-restricted outside my own class.

 

Unless it's an orange item that contains a valid mod upgrade for me or one of my companions wearing orange gear. In which case, I'm going to roll Need on it.

[sjmc]

Bottom line: if you want to argue that all companions NEED gear from FP , particularly blues and purples, which will be outdated in 4 levels, this is pretty much false. The minimal upgrades you can get are all too often wiped out by a green quest reward 3 levels later to deal with the static you will get from other players.

This is true for many upgrades for player characters too.

[Irusan]

It's not one of the ones I flagged; I flagged the asci art one as inappropriate... perhaps they scanned around and did that one on their own..

 

 

No, absolutely not. This isn't an opinion that we're disagreeing about, you're just flat wrong.

 

There you go again, twisting my words: I think that you have entitlement issues if you think that you should win the loot. Period. No other qualifiers are needed.

 

Benefit is moot, and even if it wasn't I don't agree with the way that you equate "benefit" and "has the biggest upgrade in stats"

 

I am afraid Galbatorrix IS right, and YOU are just flat wrong. Since you insist on stating your opinion as fact, I say his opinion is the correct one and yours is JUST FLAT WRONG. And my opinion is better than yours.

[chton]

I need to pick at this part myself:

 

I can have my companion running almost naked, and have him tank any mobs that comes in our way, as long as I keep doing my part as a healer and CCer.

 

Companion loot is certainly not needed in order to play/complete the game.

 

Guess what that upgrade you think you need isn't either....

[ThiborF]

Can we call agree that people should not roll need on gear that is class-restricted unless they are that class? Companions do not have a class.

 

1 million plus people playing this game.

From different gaming backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds ...

You will not get 100% consensus.

 

There's a very simple rule to go by:

IF how loot is going to get rolled on/distributed within your group is important to you, then take the few seconds at the beginning of the run and clarify them.

 

You don't have to win a debate with 100, 1000 or 1 million people on these forums. You simply need to be in agreement with the 3 or 7 other people you're grouped with for that run.

[Black_Rabbit]

Can we call agree that people should not roll need on gear that is class-restricted unless they are that class? Companions do not have a class.

 

I think that is a pretty valid point.

 

Guess what that upgrade you think you need isn't either....

 

I have never tried fighting naked, but I am sure this cannot be done, at least not without stressing and being very careful, and always getting near the edge of dying.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Black_Rabbit

[Creed_Buhallin]

Can we call agree that people should not roll need on gear that is class-restricted unless they are that class? Companions do not have a class.

I think part of the issue here is that some people seem to have different ideas of what exactly qualifies as a "restriction". For example, if Bioware put "Marauder" in the name they obviously meant for it to be used only by Marauders, even though they didn't actually restrict it to Marauders, or even Sith Warriors, right? A few people seem to think so. Personally, if you can put it on an Agent, then it's meant for an Agent.

 

I think people will catch up eventually. This is a different game, and lots of players have a very tunnel-visioned view of "need" from other games. Companions especially throw a wrench into it, and it's one people haven't adjusted to.

 

Can people abuse it? Yes, and I disagree with the "Roll for everything" mentality. I also disagree with the "Then selling it gives me credits so that's an improvement so I can need it!" Well, we've spent 80 pages arguing over what Need means without looking at the other - Greed. Greed means "I can't use this so I'm going to sell it."

 

But I'm not going to tell someone in a group what they Need, or force them to justify it. I run with Vette sometimes and Quinn sometimes, so I'll roll on stuff for them. I really don't care if you think it's not enough of an improvement for me to justify it - just as it's not my job to decide that you needing on something that'll raise your Cunning from 493 to 495 isn't worth it.

[Umbral]

1 million plus people playing this game.

Your evidence of this please?

[Mazikeen]

This entire issue boils down to two things: priorities and courtesy

 

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

 

2. Courtesy - something most kids lack and many adults now dismiss, but it does still exist. Selfishness is never attractive. Rolling for an orange item with stats you will not use is no different than rolling for an epic with stats you will not use. You can obtain moddable gear via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP. In many cases you can solo lower-level dungeons for moddable items if you like the look.

 

Those rolling need over a player of the appropriate class that genuinely needs (aka it's an upgrade for) that item is selfish and should not be tolerated in a group, period. Their guildmaster should also be notified and, if no action is taken, the guild should be blacklisted as well

[sjmc]

If a player's goal is to insure a majority of others on their server are well-geared so they have a larger pool of potential party/raid members to draw from,

I think there are quite a few players whose primary goal when joining a group is not to gear everyone but himself.

[Galbatorrix]

Nothing is class restricted in this game right now. You can need on anything that drops. Bioware left it up to the community to display logic, common sense and courtesy... which apparently was a bad idea.

[Malpracticex]

bottom line is people are dishonest, not all but a lot and the honest people will find out who the dishonest ones are on their server and before too long those will find it very hard to find groups to join.

 

good luck to all the loot hogs finding decent groups

 

let all the dishonest ones group up and roll need on everything that drops.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I think there are quite a few players whose primary goal when joining a group is not to gear everyone but himself.

 

I think there are quite a few players whose primary goal when joining a group is to gear everyone including themselves.

[Mazikeen]

bottom line is people are dishonest, not all but a lot and the honest people will find out who the dishonest ones are on their server and before too long those will find it very hard to find groups to join.

 

good luck to all the loot hogs finding decent groups

 

It's gonna be funny when those guys end up looking for raids to join in a year or so and can't get into one because people know what a jerk they were in groups

 

And what's funnier is, Legacy names will make it so even alts are remembered

[Eldren]

This entire issue boils down to two things: priorities and courtesy

 

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

Your comparison falls apart here. The majority of the game's content is solo PvE content, and companion upgrades thus carry more weight than you give them. Flashpoints can be totaled on two hands, warzones on one (with fingers left over), while PvE quests comprise a solid 85% of the game content at a bare minimum. You don't get to ascribe automatic priority based on your own criteria, which leads us to your second point.

 

2. Courtesy - something most kids lack and many adults now dismiss, but it does still exist. Selfishness is never attractive. Rolling for an orange item with stats you will not use is no different than rolling for an epic with stats you will not use. You can obtain moddable gear via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP. In many cases you can solo lower-level dungeons for moddable items if you like the look.

"Courtesy" is going to be defined in different fashions by different people depending on their upbringing, culture, and even decisions contrary to both they may make as adults/independent entities. Likewise, I'm amused that people pull out the "courtesy" card when it comes to putting others first, but never see it from the other side: if you're always putting someone else first, your own needs are never taken care of. Using your particular "courtesy logic", someone else taking an item you want is being discourteous to you. That's why this particular argument doesn't hold much weight: it falls apart too easily in this particular paradigm.

 

Those rolling need over a player of the appropriate class that genuinely needs (aka it's an upgrade for) that item is selfish and should not be tolerated in a group, period. Their guildmaster should also be notified and, if no action is taken, the guild should be blacklisted as well

 

If a single mod is an upgrade in an item, then it's an upgrade for a player, period. If an item is an upgrade for a companion, it's an upgrade, period. You don't get to ascribe your personal priority system to other players and expect them to just meekly accept it.

[Creed_Buhallin]

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

This is the wrong metric to use. Or it might be better to say that it doesn't prove what you think it proves.

 

It shouldn't matter how much of the game companions are used in - it should matter how much of MY game companions are used in. If a player spends most of their time playing with a companion, it really doesn't matter how much of the game they're missing - it's a big effect on them. You'd expect someone who spends all their time PvP'ing to have a larger claim on solid PvP gear than someone who might do a warzone once a week, right? PvP is the same amount of the game no matter what. Likewise, it doesn't really matter how often someone could potentially use companions - what should matter if how often they DO.

[sjmc]

This entire issue boils down to two things: priorities and courtesy

 

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

This assumes that everyone makes use of the content in equal portions. Some people don't do flashpoints (and encounter need-before-greed in planetary quest groups). Some people don't do warzones. So far, I have spent 80%+ of my time with either of two companions (sequentially, not concurrently). Other people might spend 20% or less.

 

2. Courtesy - something most kids lack and many adults now dismiss, but it does still exist. Selfishness is never attractive. Rolling for an orange item with stats you will not use is no different than rolling for an epic with stats you will not use. You can obtain moddable gear via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP. In many cases you can solo lower-level dungeons for moddable items if you like the look.

But you might not be able to get that particular orange piece from the GTN or planetary vendors, while you can probably get the individual mods from all of those places. To many people one orange piece is not the same as every other orange piece.

Edited January 27, 2012 by sjmc

[Anzel]

I can't believe there are over 20 pages of people QQing about random rolls on random loot drops. You click the little button... and it's random. Who cares? I mean really.

 

They should take the button away and make the entire process random so everyone would find something more meaningful to do with their time.

[Irusan]

This entire issue boils down to two things: priorities and courtesy

 

1. Priorities - Companions are used for PvE (usually solo) and, on PvP servers, open PvP. They are never used in warzones, rarely used in dungeons and never used in raids. In short, companions are used for only about half the content in the game. This automatically makes players a priority over companions

 

2. Courtesy - something most kids lack and many adults now dismiss, but it does still exist. Selfishness is never attractive. Rolling for an orange item with stats you will not use is no different than rolling for an epic with stats you will not use. You can obtain moddable gear via the GTN, planetary vendors, crafting, drops and PvP. In many cases you can solo lower-level dungeons for moddable items if you like the look.

 

Those rolling need over a player of the appropriate class that genuinely needs (aka it's an upgrade for) that item is selfish and should not be tolerated in a group, period. Their guildmaster should also be notified and, if no action is taken, the guild should be blacklisted as well

 

+1

 

I completely agree. Yet there are 80+ pages of the popular counter-argument, "The Need button is there and the game allows me to press it, so it must be right." I am reminded of the Futurama episode where Zapp Brannigan tells Kipp, "Stop sighing so much."

[Averran]

Hello everyone,

 

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[ispanolfw]

Expecting to win the loot Bioware created for your class is not entitlement. Thinking that you deserve loot that was not designed for your class "just because I was there too" is entitlement.

 

Whoa, full stop. "Expecting to Win" is entitlement. To be entitled to it you have some right to it. However in this game, you do not have a right to it over the others in the group. Everyone in the group however is entitled to roll on it as they see fit, but beyond that, there is no entitlement. Yet people on both sides, and not the people you are arguing with, but yourself and the opposite extreme claim entitlement to the item in different ways. And that's the thing, words have specific meanings, not varying definitions based on someones opinions.

 

Like ferroz, he is not saying he has any entitlement to what drops, he is saying he is only entitled to ROLL on anything that drops, as is everyone in the group. He's also not saying he WILL roll on everything that drops, just that that is the right given him and everyone else in the group. And anything beyond those rules is player choice and can be discussed prior. If not, there can be no complaints.

 

Also you stated nothing is Class Restricted. There actually are class restricted drops, i've seen some for IA on my Marauder a few times.

[Matte_Black]

And if they don't want to be blasted, they could have had a discussion before hand to insure everyone in the group was ok with their loot whoring. We can do this circular logic thing all day if you want.

 

The fact is, Bioware force feeds you proper stat priority in every quest that you complete and a lot of times, gear is also named appropriately so players know which class should get the highest priority as well. We're not trying to force our own "personal" rules on others here. We just use some basic common sense and language comprehension to know who the loot was intended for. Some of us realize that the Operative jacket should go to the IA in the group. It's only people with entitlement issues who think otherwise. People who believe all loot should be theirs regardless of who could best use it. This way of thinking is very self centered and inconsiderate to everyone else in the group who is also putting in their time to complete the FP.

 

I am not even saying I necessarily disagree with your opinion about what should be considered a "need" but, ultimately, you are the one who wants things to work a certain way. The onus is on you.

 

Maybe the player "needing" loot he shouldn't will consider your harassment a deterrent, maybe he won't. You can't assume he will know it's a consequence or even wrong. At the very least, you owe it to your fellow party members to attempt to deal with it in adult manner that avoids all the drama you plan to inflict.

 

If it is important enough for you to get upset with and potentially fill the PUG or whatever with your additional dose of bad behavior for the rest of the players who did nothing wrong, it is important enough to spare a few words at the group.

[sjmc]

If an orange item dropped with a +30 expertise enhancement, I wonder how many people would roll for it regardless of "intended class".