Bioware caved in to the forum whines, prepare for the start of a doomed pvp game.

[Posixgod]

The title says it all, Bioware like every other developer caved in to the very vocal forum minority which also usually tends to be some of the very worse MMO players in MMOs. This is the beginning of the end. Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. That's the mistake of past mmo devs that has caused their subscriptions to dwindle in the past and I say that as an MMO veteran since 1997 UO, that has played nearly every MMO since then. You should, if possible release surveys in game to also see how players feel about x and x changes before implementing them. You can also use surveys to see if players think some classes are over the top, currently. You will see that the majority of people that actually play the game at 50, don't feel like the random forum whiners/posers that aren't even 50 yet.

 

/agreed entirely, the terribads / whiners have a way of destroying every game

[IlexGlabra]

The title says it all, Bioware like every other developer caved in to the very vocal forum minority which also usually tends to be some of the very worse MMO players in MMOs. This is the beginning of the end. Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. That's the mistake of past mmo devs that has caused their subscriptions to dwindle in the past and I say that as an MMO veteran since 1997 UO, that has played nearly every MMO since then. You should, if possible release surveys in game to also see how players feel about x and x changes before implementing them. You can also use surveys to see if players think some classes are over the top, currently. You will see that the majority of people that actually play the game at 50, don't feel like the random forum whiners/posers that aren't even 50 yet.

 

Your post is riddled with assumptions that I'm pretty sure you cannot back up. The one thing I think you have right is that BW has a whole pile of statistics from which they can base their decisions.

[Egnar]

The kids in this thread are hilarious. I can be stunned for 4 seconds at range by a sorceror, then have another sorceror stun me again from ranged, finally triggering full resolve but in that time span I was stunned for a full 8 seconds

You're comparing 1 player against 2 players. That's like me saying Warriors should be nerfed because a group of 12 of them can kill me in 2 seconds.

 

 

The truth is that it's silly to think perfect balance can be achieved in the vanilla aspects of the game - especially when the majority of beta users are there to play the game, not to test. Actually, it's silly to think perfect balance can ever be achieved - if you cannot grasp this simple fact about an MMO you should probably stick to singleplayer games. That is to say that in every single MMO game no matter how successful there will always be balance changes.

[Chaos_Distortion]

You're comparing 1 player against 2 players. That's like me saying Warriors should be nerfed because a group of 12 of them can kill me in 2 seconds.

 

 

The truth is that it's silly to think perfect balance can be achieved in the vanilla aspects of the game - especially when the majority of beta users are there to play the game, not to test. Actually, it's silly to think perfect balance can ever be achieved - if you cannot grasp this simple fact about an MMO you should probably stick to singleplayer games. That is to say that in every single MMO game no matter how successful there will always be balance changes.

It's funny because pvp should be balanced around team pvp and not 1v1s. Your ignorance to that fact shows in this post. So scoundrels/operatives shouldn't have any stuns at all but sorcerors should be allowed to perma stun lock someone because there's more than one doing it? Are you honestly taking yourself seriously right now, really? 3 second stun that triggers full resolve against a 4 second ranged stun that doesn't trigger full resolve, which one is worse? Riddle me that.

 

Note: For the idiots chiming in here about my sig, I'm pointing out the false assumptions from ArenaNet claiming that players don't enjoy healing, I'm not saying that I don't agree with the way they're making the game. I, like plenty of other healers didn't like the fact that they claimed healers didn't enjoy healing so we pointed it out to them.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Chaos_Distortion

[Sumwun]

I don't think you have played many MMOs in the past, have you? Devs rarely test their own game/use their own metrics before implementing class nerfs. They mainly go by what they see on the forums. If they see a huge thread about x class is OPd, they don't even bother to read the whole thread, they just assume there are so many posts in it because the majority of the posts agree with the OP. When it clearly isn't the case, if Bioware and other Devs read the entirety of every huge nerf x class thread, they would see that the majority of the posts disagree with the original poster; sadly they don't.

 

 

You don't read these forums much, do you? It has been stated numerous times, BY BW, that they pay close attention to metrics when researching complaints about imbalance. To say a dev doesn't test prior to making chances is ludicrous. at best.

[Chaos_Distortion]

You don't read these forums much, do you? It has been stated numerous times, BY BW, that they pay close attention to metrics when researching complaints about imbalance. To say a dev doesn't test prior to making chances is ludicrous. at best.

You would be surprised, really surprised if you have played as much MMOs as I have and seen some of the MMO changes that I have where the devs themselves admitted to not testing the changes or one of their disgruntled employees revealing the fact.

[Egnar]

It's funny because pvp should be balanced around team pvp and not 1v1s. Your ignorance to that fact shows in this post. So scoundrels/operatives shouldn't have any stuns at all but sorcerors should be allowed to perma stun lock someone because there's more than one doing it? Are you honestly taking yourself seriously right now, really? 3 second stun that triggers full resolve against a 4 second ranged stun that doesn't trigger full resolve, which one is worse? Riddle me that.

Riddle you what? I'm not saying that sorcerers should or should not be nerfed or that I agree or disagree with the Operatives nerf. All I'm saying is that the comparison made was apples and oranges. You can't counter an argument about a single player class having exceptionally high dps needing adjustments to a highly hypothetical situation in which a player is systematically stunned by the same move from the same exact class twice in a row - Additionally, this type of stunning can happen with any combination of a Sorcerer + Any class with a stun. Once again: I am not endorsing or bashing the argument just saying it's a silly comparison to the original argument.

[Gryn]

Sorcerors/Sages can do it much worse and at ranged, rofl.. The kids in this thread are hilarious. I can be stunned for 4 seconds at range by a sorceror, then have another sorceror stun me again from ranged, finally triggering full resolve but in that time span I was stunned for a full 8 seconds. You tardaloos complaining about a 3 second stun simply ignore those facts, don't you? A 3 second stun that gives you full resolve, while the 4 second stuns don't so you can stun someone again.. How convenient for all of you bads to ignore this simple fact. As a scoundrel healer I run into premades with two sorcerors all the time, that chain stun me for 8 seconds straight while slowing the **** out of me with force lightning spam, so there's no way for me to escape.. Do I come on the forums and cry about it? No I don't..

 

I play an Op. They were OP as hell. Now they are more in line with the other classes. As someone else stated earlier... if they were the counter class to another class it would have been okay but being able to burn through any class... anytime... anywhere in less than a few seconds? The class needed balance. Now Ops/Smugglers have to work for their kills. Just like any other class.

 

Get over it. Or quit. Either way just shut up about it.

[Chaos_Distortion]

I play an Op. They were OP as hell. Now they are more in line with the other classes. As someone else stated earlier... if they were the counter class to another class it would have been okay but being able to burn through any class... anytime... anywhere in less than a few seconds? The class needed balance. Now Ops/Smugglers have to work for their kills. Just like any other class.

 

Get over it. Or quit. Either way just shut up about it.

 

No you don't and this is why I endorse Bioware to have Forum avatars with a person's class and level. To expose claimers like you. Mythic did it with Warhammer, hopefully Bioware does it here.

[Irishbrewed]

Not sure you understand that this forum means very little to a developer... That's the proplem MMO players think these companies really give a crap about anything on here. Sure they will pay attention to some HOT TOPICS to some extent... But you think they really nerf a class cause of whiners? Come on! They have state of the art metrics and can tell what's going on in their game, just because the operative got a nerf doesn't mean they caved, it means that some of the whiners QQ had validity.. Don't be so entitled

 

I would also like to add, the the "rogue" archtype, is one of the hardest to balance for an mmo and pvp... It's a slippery slope.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Irishbrewed

[NoxiousAlby]

The title says it all, Bioware like every other developer caved in to the very vocal forum minority which also usually tends to be some of the very worse MMO players in MMOs. This is the beginning of the end. Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. That's the mistake of past mmo devs that has caused their subscriptions to dwindle in the past and I say that as an MMO veteran since 1997 UO, that has played nearly every MMO since then. You should, if possible release surveys in game to also see how players feel about x and x changes before implementing them. You can also use surveys to see if players think some classes are over the top, currently. You will see that the majority of people that actually play the game at 50, don't feel like the random forum whiners/posers that aren't even 50 yet.

 

Sorry but your post made me laugh out loud, especially the last bit. Reminded me of Ghost Crawlers comments that combat abilities are geared for lvl 80, so prepare to get rofl stomped till you hit lvl cap.

 

Sorry OP you couldnt be more wrong.................when a class is capapble of knocking you to the ground and killing you before you have the chance to even get back up then something is wrong. I sympathise with players who went with the single character OP/scoundrel but opposing players need to have a fighting chance.

 

Thing is that any player skilled at pvp will still find their victims with the changes, it's only the unskilled who wont find it so easy anymore.

[GameNirvana]

The title says it all, Bioware like every other developer caved in to the very vocal forum minority which also usually tends to be some of the very worse MMO players in MMOs. This is the beginning of the end. Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. That's the mistake of past mmo devs that has caused their subscriptions to dwindle in the past and I say that as an MMO veteran since 1997 UO, that has played nearly every MMO since then. You should, if possible release surveys in game to also see how players feel about x and x changes before implementing them. You can also use surveys to see if players think some classes are over the top, currently. You will see that the majority of people that actually play the game at 50, don't feel like the random forum whiners/posers that aren't even 50 yet.

 

They made the nerf b/c their metrics showed they needed to. Your viewpoint of those classes is probably unclear at best, as is mine.

 

They used their metrics, and they will continue to use them. Otherwise they woulda already nerfed Sorcerer hardcore b/c all the whiners that complain about them.

[Kuari]

NO they weren't, stop lying.. Two days wasn't enough time for them to test anything.

 

If you're calling me a liar on this particular subject, you're also calling BioWare liars. Pay attention to their news postings. This is the exact reason they described for looking into some class balance issues. Two days is plenty of time to test if you have the data from multiple servers available at your fingertips plus plenty of internal testing.

[Rockstar]

I agree that nerfs are never the answer and am a firm believer to look at the classes that are lacking instead.

 

But OP, come on man, you're coming off a fairly pompous with this "I've been playing since UO" garbage.

 

Believe me when I tell you I've been playing just as long as you and I refuse to believe that kind "experience" give me any credibility or enhances my opinions.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Rockstar

[Chiricahua]

I agree the nerf was overdone. But, sadly even without the nerf this game will fail unless they fix faction imbalance, eliminate constant queueing for huttball, and the general poor malaise of a system masquerading as pvp.

[AssistSenn]

This will start a nerfing trend that will get all dps classes nerfed eventually and then healing will be to high, so they will have to nerf healing and buff dps again. Then the nerfing/buffing cycle will just repeat itself, until the players get tired and the game dies. Good job at killing another game, that is what you forum whiners wanted after all.

 

Mr. MMO Jesus, can you please name me a single MMORPG in which the nerfs of outlier abilities destroyed the PvP?

 

The correct answer is none, nerf's are what keep PvP interesting for most players. Buffing everyone into godlike mode is the childish way of craptastic PvP players. i.e. WoW garbage.

 

To date the best group PvP game is DAoC, no arguement I hope from you, and the best part about the PvP was the group makeup. People had to choose what type of CC/Heals/DPS groups they wanted to run because every class had something that other classes did not have.

 

Nerfing characters in this game can only make the PvP and PvE better, imo. As far as forum whiners go, I believe you've just topped the list of forum whiners. Congrats on becoming what you did your best to demoralize.

[lexiekaboom]

Regardless of the need for a nurf or not, I just need to point out

 

People who choice to play the class that is designed around the idea of stealth killing someone before they can react in any way, or picking off low health people in one shot saying people complain about them have "no skill" = priceless

[EternalFinality]

Blizzard caved to people calling for nerfs all the time. In fact, their entire balancing scheme revolved around nerfing whatever was the most imbalanced at the time.

 

They seemed to end up pretty popular. Fact is, listening to the whiners actually placates them. And the people who are nerfed don't leave because they know what goes around comes to around to the classes that got them nerfed. People complain constantly but they're actually happy and keep playing. Who'd have thought!

Edited January 25, 2012 by EternalFinality

[PaddySucks]

Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. yet.

 

As the 1.1.1 notes stated, they are being nerfed due to faster than intended PvP kills. They did use their own metrics, and found that Operatives/Scoundrels are doing something they didn't intend them to do. End of story.

 

Now stop crying because your class got nerfed, and claiming it's the end of the PvP world. There's probably a reason why nearly everybody (Oh that vocal minority) complained about their burst damage on here, and BW stated that the burst is higher than they wanted them to have.

[Beyaco]

The title says it all, Bioware like every other developer caved in to the very vocal forum minority which also usually tends to be some of the very worse MMO players in MMOs. This is the beginning of the end. Scoundrels/Operatives did not need a nerf Bioware, as a healer I say this. You need to test your game and use your own metrics before implementing any class changes in game. Do not go by made up scenarios and imaginary numbers that forum posters use to try to make a point. That's the mistake of past mmo devs that has caused their subscriptions to dwindle in the past and I say that as an MMO veteran since 1997 UO, that has played nearly every MMO since then. You should, if possible release surveys in game to also see how players feel about x and x changes before implementing them. You can also use surveys to see if players think some classes are over the top, currently. You will see that the majority of people that actually play the game at 50, don't feel like the random forum whiners/posers that aren't even 50 yet.

 

I have said it time and time again. They need to collect data from people who actually PLAY the game and not the people who form the "community" on the forums. The actually number of people that visit the forums is a FRACTION of the average guy who is happy and playing.

 

So, yes, there needs to be some sort of in game survey/voting system.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Beyaco

[AngryBuddhist]

They mainly go by what they see on the forums. If they see a huge thread about x class is OPd, they don't even bother to read the whole thread, they just assume there are so many posts in it because the majority of the posts agree with the OP.

 

Ummm no ... it doesn't work that way AT ALL. Devs who read forums get fired.

[hidy]

Who cares how long youve been playing MMO's. This one came out a month ago so its new to everyone. There's gonna be lots of trial and error cases.

 

I hate when ppl think theyve been MMO gaming for years and think they know whats best. If anything's going to kill the pvp system it will be the lack of rewards and content.

Edited January 25, 2012 by hidy

[Verona]

Gabe even stated in an interview this had nothing to do with "woops, op/scound too op lets nerf"

 

He explained the process of skills and healing 'ratings' in their system and a few things weren't being accounted for. This is something that had intended to be changed for awhile.

 

You can say he's just making stuff up, but it seems like that would be pretty pointless. Because all he'd have to say is "Well, they were killing too quickly and we needed to adjust".

 

For anyone interested in the interview I'm talking about. the pvp balancing topic starts around 9:50

 

[lexiekaboom]

When devs post they are happy for feedback, listened to people and are making changes they are talking about the people who posted what video card they were using when the crashed and put up DIVX logs.

 

No one else.

 

You think our collective option means SO MUCH that they are making game changes based on it, even though it means so little the only dev post to this forum was after the Ilum change and didn't ask for opinion, just to state fact about the "possible problem"?

 

No devs are reading the PVP forum. Nor should they be. This is a place for a minority of people to whine and call each other names. Nothing more.

 

love it for what it is!

[Kincaid]

"Devs rarely test their own game/use their own metrics before implementing class nerfs. They mainly go by what they see on the forums."

 

Ignorant statement of the year.

 

Grats!