I feel that concealment operatives need a re-balance.

[Sarkav]

OP is not even level 50 yet and is calling for nerfs to his alleged main class.

 

That is because the OP is trolling.

 

The only way to get the insane burst damage he is talking about is to be in PvP epics and stack consumables. And really, any class can do that and achieve pretty good results.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Operative openers damage toned down a little, but they would need more utility to make up for it because right now they have nothing else.

[Ahhmyface]

I can post videos of my character getting 3 shot by ops over and over if you scrub ops/scoundrel want to keep lying.

 

500 expertise. 24% absorb, 14% defense, 16000 hp. You're a liar, and you're going to get nerfed, whether you like it or not.

[Tycius]

I know il see yah Tycius and im sure your Imp buddys will gear you up lickty split too since they face rolled so many lower lvl players for a few weeks and are far more geared than us Repubs,but we still win sometimes and it is getting better,but make no mistake you guys have TONS i mean TONS of sorc's and inquis,hell ive been in matches where there was only those two classes many times lol,yarh stun fest.

 

Yes you get to 50 and use your opener on me,i bet you dont get me to half health.

 

EDIT Hell il even meet you at a set time place and let you do it.

 

My Operative's name is Elliot. I look forward to fighting you on the battlefield, hopefully, as fairly as possible. I don't appreciate the fact that imperials have the upper-hand, trust me I would rather it be the other way around, we only improve through challenge eh?

[wbtusmc]

I can post videos of my character getting 3 shot by ops over and over if you scrub ops/scoundrel want to keep lying.

 

500 expertise. 24% absorb, 14% defense, 16000 hp. You're a liar, and you're going to get nerfed, whether you like it or not.

 

pre-patch maybe. or maybe you need to l2p?

[Ahhmyface]

Yeah, I admit my playing while I'm on the ground getting stabbed is rather poor. I guess i should try laying a little to the left next time, maybe twitch my right eye. Edited January 20, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Sathid]

Being lvl 49 does not entitle you to say that your class is OP, Underpowered, broken, or anything. 3 shotting lowbie noobs doesnt count as pvp experience. get into the 50 bracket and then come back and say OP/SC is OP. all four classes have a counter to operative/scoundrel.

 

1. Jedi Guardian/Sith Jugg. --Guard. force leap. force push. guardian leap away. AOE blind
   
2. Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder-- Aoe Blind
   
3. Sorcerer/Sage-- Bubble, knockback+talented root, snare on lightning/tk throw, 30m ranged stun.
   
4. Shadow/Assassin-- tech immunity skill (this is huuuuge), Vanish, knockback, 30m ranged stun. guard, for tank spec.
   
5. Powertech/Vanguard-- guard, 30m stun, plentiful AOE, stealth detection on low CD.
   
6. Mercenary/Commando-- knockback, 30m stun, even more plentiful aoe, stealth detection on low CD.
   
7. Sniper/Gunslinger -- knockback, roots, (probably the weakest against op/sc due to cover requirements.
   

 

Good post,but here's the kicker with snipers and if i try to open up on them for some reason when they have their shield up and im behind them got my flechette up pop my relic and go in with shoot first,,,,nothing i mean zip,no kidding,still trying to figure that out.

[Sathid]

My Operative's name is Elliot. I look forward to fighting you on the battlefield, hopefully, as fairly as possible. I don't appreciate the fact that imperials have the upper-hand, trust me I would rather it be the other way around, we only improve through challenge eh?

 

Yup it will be fun seeing yah,but please reserve judgement until you get to 50 and throw on a few champ gear.

[Desgarden]

It is amusing that people can defend a class which gets you near death or in case of guys with only moderate expertise can kill them during a stun and on top of that can basically escape at will even when screwing up royally.

 

Seriously, that's a class with training wheels attached. If you don't kill your target right away...pooof vanish and have another try and most likely he will die now.

 

That's simply very bad game design.

 

However, I guess some people are wetting their pants that their little bully class could get tweaked so that they suddenly have to fight for their kills.

[Sinemetu]

2 things. Too many stuns, and uber melee critical attacks. This is nothing new. The melee spies in SWG were villified so much, that most players wouldn't invite them to instances in PUG groups, unless they knew them real well. Melee spies dispatched people in the Restuss space port all the time in like 2 seconds. Operative continues without a nerf the community will turn on them too. Oh yeah, they hated their ability to cloak and escape combat also.

 

Too many stuns? Other than hidden strike, which lasts a few seconds and fills the resolve bar and requires stealth, we have a 4s stun on a minute cooldown and an aoe mez. That's all. Pretty much every class has as much--everyone has a 4s stun, and everyone else has a knockback or pull except, what, marauders?

 

IMO they could just nerf hidden strike and buff lacerate. I'm fine with their armor pen. Someone ought to be able to put a dent in a tank's health, and frankly operatives are so easy to kite they can use the extra sustained damage.

[wintersnight]

Just realised that people may think I'm low level. I'm not, I'm level 49 as of two minutes ago. I'm not someone playing the class for the first time.

 

But yes, I am starting to imagine it might be very different in the level 50 bracket. And much of what I believed has been called into question.

 

wow! You don't know what you're talking about. wait till you go in the 50s bracket and the 60% Sorc Inquis get your asse.

 

Operatives are a joke in the 50s bracket now - an annoyance at most. Sure, they will gimp one person down, but then the billion ranged clasess...turn and pound you.

[Sathid]

It is amusing that people can defend a class which gets you near death or in case of guys with only moderate expertise can kill them during a stun and on top of that can basically escape at will even when screwing up royally.

 

Seriously, that's a class with training wheels attached. If you don't kill your target right away...pooof vanish and have another try and most likely he will die now.

 

That's simply very bad game design.

 

However, I guess some people are wetting their pants that their little bully class could get tweaked so that they suddenly have to fight for their kills.

 

Training wheels attached/ really? go play one,it gets rather frustrating all the stealthing around you do and trying to get behind without being noticed to get that opener,we rarely ever have most kills and damage,we are situational at its core and we do very well in voidstar and Alderann but stink at Hutball,we have a role and you people just dont like it,many with envy i assume,but trust me this is no easy class and i really do get tired of how we must remain stealthed,id love to fight in the open sometimes.

[furiousferret]

The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Katharsis]

Owner of thread definlty have no idea bout operative/scoundrel.

I played tons of games with my scoundrel , did countless 1 vs 1 , 2 vs 1 , 2 vs 2 open world/ilum.

I tell you what ; we are not overpowered or somethin as you point it. First of all our enemies gets full resolve bar after we use shoot first on em , so there is no 'too many stuns' for operative/scoundrel class exist. Second those 'big crits' realy item gear/armor/expertise dependant , go try shoot first on full pvp gear juggernaut .

If;

We cant get good crits on shoot first

We dont have any def CD's on.

We dont have dis. act CD on

We are simply toast vs any class.

Even with all CD's up , a good players from almost all classes can beat scoundrel 1 vs 1.

 

Got rank 57 atm full champion gear etc believe me i played at least 10 times more pvp games / duels thn you. I dont evet believe you are operative anyway..

[Fedarsond]

I currently play a Imperial operative under the concealment spec. I have many times played through a warzone with the feeling that everyone around me is furious, not simply by my skill, but because of my class.

 

I'm not going to be modest, I'm a experienced PvP player of many MMO's, and that skill I believe has translated well into SWTOR. Despite this, when playing in Warzones (and indeed, in world PvP) I cannot feel that my success is less to do with professional play, than the simply over-sharp glass cannon that I play. There have been instances where I have killed players before they get out of a stun lock. There have been instances where I have one shot players at half health. A while back, I and a PvP un-experienced random BH took down a Jedi Sage and Guardian in world PvP, who were both 5-6 levels above us, three times. Yesterday I took down a team of the same composition (same classes, different players), solo; in less than 12 seconds.

 

I cannot help but conclude, that despite the intended nature of this spec, it grants a heavy advantage against any other class, and by comparison to other classes; is simply to easy to play.

 

So I did research, I asked guild members, perused the forums, compared damage outputs, dueled with other PvP players. The results supported my conclusion. I understand the concept that this spec is intended to do massive (and often inconsistent) burst damage, but that mechanic has been presented in such a way that has given an unfair advantage to those that play it.

 

Humbly, I suggest that the burst damage output of the Concealment and Scrapper tree specialisations are reduced, and perhaps something small is added elsewhere to allow it to continue to be a viable class.

 

PS: I wasn't sure if this was more appropriate for the "PvP" or "Suggestion Box" forum section. If I have placed it wrongly, I ask that an administrator be kind enough to move the topic, or inform me to re-post in the other section.

 

you just need to **** till you hit 50 and pvp for a week. So sick of low lvl peices of crap like you who dont know the game is balance at 50 not 10 not 20 not 30 not 40!

[BobaFurz]

wow! You don't know what you're talking about. wait till you go in the 50s bracket and the 60% Sorc Inquis get your asse.

 

Operatives are a joke in the 50s bracket now - an annoyance at most. Sure, they will gimp one person down, but then the billion ranged clasess...turn and pound you.

 

Hahah ....this , there is a reason why you see less toppics about op/sc in the last days.

Edited January 20, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Sathid]

Exactly wanna talk OP? look over at them sorcs and inquis,really but hey thats 65 to 70% of the zerg Empire.

[ActionAce]

They don't need a nerf, they just need animation changes

[yukirshiro]

You're obviously not really an OP but you're not totally wrong.

 

After the stim nerfs burst isn't so bad any more but it should still be toned down a bit and ops should receive SUBSTANTIAL buffs to sustained DPS and utility to compensate.

 

Right now against an equal gear player you arn't getting them below 50% in your stunlock. That doesn't seem unbalanced but if they wanted to nerf the initial stunlock damage by about 25% and compensate with a utility ability and about 10-15% more sustained dps that would be cool with me.

[Diomades]

I really honestly think that all the people complaining about Scrapper/Concealment tearing people apart in equal gear at 50 are people seeing them running around with the Biochem buff, because in that situation it is REALLY powerful and CAN kill people in the first stun. Otherwise, I'm lucky to hit for 2K on Shoot First non-crit, 5K on a crit.

 

The thing about Scrapper/Concealment is that all the damage is front-loaded. You pop out from stealth, do massive damage (if you get lucky on a crit), and then the amount of damage you put out drops dramatically. Your target is immune to CC, your slow can only be used within 10 yards of a target, you've got no way to keep up with a target if they sprint or leap away, if you get knocked back you've got no quick ways to get back in the fight, and if they have defensive cooldowns you better be ready to get your butt kicked.

 

Fact of the matter is, once out of stealth your options for a fight become increasingly reduced. Your knockdown and damage will want to put a LOT of hurt on the target, or else you are liable to get taken down because other classes have far more reliable out of stealth DPS or burst, not to mention defences and utility.

 

For me, it's all about picking the weakest or least defended target. It's not even about hitting targets of importance (because those are the targets with stacked defenses). Taking a DPS without defences up out of the picture is my priority. So this means singling out a weak link - a low health character, or a class without a lot of defensive abilities. For me, this usually this means hitting a Marauder, a Sorceror with their shield down, a Mercenary, Sniper, Operative, so on and so fourth.

 

This game is all about the team play, and I have the hardest time as a Scrapper when the opposing team is actually working together. I'm not going to ever single-handedly take down a weak DPS if the enemy team is doing what they should be (Sorcerors spamming shields on their team mates, tanks using guard on priority targets, healers keeping up their weak). This game is not balanced around 1v1, and your play style as an Operative is really dependant upon your team. Your duty is to take out the weakest link, or put down pressure and focus down people with the rest of your team.

 

I'm not saying I don't do well in Warzones - I get pretty close to the top of the charts after people that do a lot of AOE damage. But do I feel overpowered? I'm a melee class with no way to quickly get in melee, rather pitiful defences out of stealth, a lot of front-loaded damage and heavy handed damage based on RNG, rather pathetic heals (as a scrapper), and stealth in a game that has a LOT of anti-stealth AOE and high stealth detection. So no, I don't feel it's OP, you really need to pick and choose your battles because you aren't some mindless facerolling killing machine.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Diomades

[Dominemesis]

OP is not even level 50 yet and is calling for nerfs to his alleged main class.

 

What people seem to not understand is that from a top down perspective, the classes ARE balanced for the most part. You claim to have played in beta, and if that is true, then you no doubt were confronted with 50's in BM gear, specifically a tank and healer combination with guard applied, and the tank competently using taunts, and intercede/guardian leap to mitigate massive amounts of incoming damage.

 

In a pvp environment, this combination is unstoppable, and without high burst classes such as an operative, sniper, and assassin, they would walk all over everyone in matches.

 

I think you need to spend more time with the class, and re-evaluate your position when everyone is sitting in equal gear. When that tank has 23-25k HP, your opener (especially post biochem, and consumable expertise stacking nerfs) shrugs off your 4-5k opener, you will eat those words, and be back crying about how its impossible to kill a tank with a pocket healer.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most people are bad at pvp, they are slow to react, they make poor decisions, and they don't know how to counter an operative/scoundrel.

 

If you blew your cc breaker on an 8 second stun, and then got faceplanted and sat there for three seconds while the operative has his way with you. This describes you. Thats a poor decision.

 

this is the most sensible post in this thread thus far.

[Rhym]

The reason people feel that Scoundrels/Operatives are OP is because they don't like (yeah I actually mean HATE) getting all that burst to their back from stealth. Same things with rogues in wow and all similar classes in every mmo. It's the design of the class you don't like. It has nothing to do with whether the class is overall balanced or not. After the burst then what do we have?

 

As has been mentioned, at high gear level where everyone will end up eventually I would actually say that Scoundrels/Operatives are UP. Burst won't kill anyone anymore, and it's pretty much all they have. In addition you rarely fight anyone one on one, which is their strong suite.

 

They are almost exlusively 4m range, which is a pretty big disadvantage in a game where you spend half your pvp time CCed and with your access to the target controlled. When they blow all their abilites/energy on the burst sequence, then in the several seconds you need to finish someone off with normal dps abilies you'll get stunned and your target will get healed up. Basically any assisting player (one heal thrown, one aoe knockback fired etc) will make it impossible for your to kill your target. Assuming equally geared players. An operatives power increases exponentially the worse his targets gear is, which is another reason (poorly geared) people feel the class is OP.

 

BioWare designed the class to burst. It's a design the other classes hate. But if you remove the burst the class is useless. It would have to be completely redesigned, which they can't do because they will have completely changed the core mechanic of a class people spent time and effort levelling.

[furiousferret]

Training wheels attached/ really? go play one,it gets rather frustrating all the stealthing around you do and trying to get behind without being noticed to get that opener,we rarely ever have most kills and damage,we are situational at its core and we do very well in voidstar and Alderann but stink at Hutball,we have a role and you people just dont like it,many with envy i assume,but trust me this is no easy class and i really do get tired of how we must remain stealthed,id love to fight in the open sometimes.

 

I couldn't agree with this more, and people dont understand how many times you get stuck in combat and cant restealth, half to position to get in 50% of your dps, and get zerged on the moment you get out of stealth.

 

So the class has burst, and a full champ Op can down a fresh 50 pretty fast. So they get mad, call it easy mode, say they kill 5 people at a time, top damage, etc. Ops aren't overpowered, but we are a bully class, that can beat up fairly easily on a lesser skilled and geared player. The same kind of player that spends more time crying on the forums about a class having 'training wheels' because its alot easier to exaggerate about what happened than to actually learn from it.

[Pappus]

i agree

[Vube]

I'm an Immortal Jugg, in ALL Champion gear (Apart from Centurion Belt and main hand weapon.) Valor 52. I take ~ 12% reduced damage in PVP b/c of expertise. 18000 health with the Stim.

 

Since the game is only a month old, I would like to know a few answers. I have definitely felt the bite of a Smugg/IA. If my escape is on cooldown, I have been killed from full health in the one stun that has you laying on the ground in a 1v1 setting.

 

I know that their three big attacks either ignore 100% of armor or are considered internal/poison damage.

 

I am still learning. I know to escape and use my 40% reduced reduction on the initial stun if I'm knocked down, and try to then stun them to get away. Because it was under my impression that their next or 3rd attack has a prerequisit to have the person incapacitated in order for it to be usable.

 

But is there anything else I can do?

 

I dooooo feel as they are overpowered. Someone in the same type of pvp gear as me, in my opinion should not be able to 3-4 shot a 100% tank spec'd tank in pvp gear. But instead of having a majority of my post be complaining. I would like to learn how to counter it 1v1.

 

Educate me! Thanks

[yukirshiro]

Educate me! Thanks

 

The only advice I can provide is to stop lying because that doesn't happen post 1.1. You're also wrong on armor penetration and damage types.

 

Adrenal/stim nerfing stopped the 10k openers. They simply don't happen any more. Period.