DrkCntry Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 How are they going to know if it's 'not enough for them' without the data? If DPS is light (say you missed an enrage timer) how do you know WHERE it's light? Considering that generally speaking you're looking at a max of 16 people in a group... On average though, you're looking at 4 people... If in EITHER of those you cannot tell who is not holding their own, you don't need meters, you need glasses. That's why there are nifty things called icons for buffs/debuffs, visual cues in animations and 'theatrics' for skills, and other various things. Addons and meters are crutches for the VAST majority of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickDevlan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You're right. We don't *need* them. However, they add tremendous value. Why would you not provide something to your customers that gives tremendous value? When it detracts "tremendous value" from other customers. Look, I'm not 100% anti-addon. I wouldn't mind seeing a damage meter and UI customization, but I hope those are things BW will put in to prevent "having" to go elsewhere all the time. As for anything above and beyond, no. They aren't needed and they take away from gameplay by automating too much of it. Yes, DBM automated things YOU are supposed to do like pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanSnowWolf Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It ain't about e-peen...I don't care who's at the top, just who's at the bottom. So you can vivvisect them and create an arbitrary number as to what the bottom is allowed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaftyMcShaft Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 How does anything in what you said require meters though? I don't expect people to carry me, I expect people to explain to me if what I am doing is not enough for them. I don't need people to tell me I'm a "baddie" and kick me from a group, as that does nothing to help me understand why. Look, meters aren't needed, common courtesy is. How do we know if what you're doing is "enough" without meters? The information is used to help players get better, but we have to have the information. I did a raid awhile back on my Mage alt in WoW. Maybe my second raid on that dude ever, so I had little experience with the class. Did my research, thought I was doing it right, but then my friend in the raid on his Mage is doing like 30% more damage than I am. "uh oh, I must be doing something wrong!". I asked him about his rotation and yeah I was misunderstanding part of the mechanic, fixed that, and got my DPS up to where it should be. I'd never have known without access to the information. I don't understand arguments against having access to information that helps you improve and track your progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonktonkGigolo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So you can vivvisect them and create an arbitrary number as to what the bottom is allowed to be. The game designers tell us what the bottom is allowed to be. This is what an enrage timer is. You need X amount of DPS spread out across Y amount of people to beat the boss in Z time. If person A isn't performing within that limit and isn't 1.) a tank or 2.) a healer, then that person needs help. Also, Damage meters help judge what the max potential of a class is. From there, you can start subtracting DPS from that max number based on FPS, latency, player skill, player knowledge, etc. and come with a pretty baseline low number required to be a part of an encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronamo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) I don't understand arguments against having access to information that helps you improve and track your progress. Outside of a few ostensibly very paranoid posters I've seen who felt that their information should be theirs and theirs alone, it's not so much having the information that people are afraid / apprehensive / angry / clueless about as it is their perceived notions of how the information could / would be used. Personally, I'd be fine with any combat log information not being made available to any addon API that might be added. I don't want a timer between a boss' aoe's or a damage meter. I do want infinite customization and expression of existing information on a local level, however. The developers are perfectly capable of providing only very specific abilities and API calls to mod authors. Blindly refusing a limitless amount of interface improvements and customizations based on problems with an extremely limited and finite subset of addons from other games is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Edited January 20, 2012 by Ronamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I actually believe quite the opposite. If they give us the depicted UI customization, there are no longer any add-ons that can be claimed to be anywhere even close to a "need". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazeh Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes, DBM automated things YOU are supposed to do like pay attention. And how has DBM automated that? I'm pretty certain you're still required to pay attention, even with DBM running. After all if you weren't paying attention then it'd be pretty pointless for DBM to throw out any warnings wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanSnowWolf Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) The game designers tell us what the bottom is allowed to be. This is what an enrage timer is. You need X amount of DPS spread out across Y amount of people to beat the boss in Z time. If person A isn't performing within that limit and isn't 1.) a tank or 2.) a healer, then that person needs help. Also, Damage meters help judge what the max potential of a class is. From there, you can start subtracting DPS from that max number based on FPS, latency, player skill, player knowledge, etc. and come with a pretty baseline low number required to be a part of an encounter. And then, now that you have played God and told everyone else what YOU think the max potential is, you then begin expecting others to live up to that and create restrictions on people. At which point, the developer retunes future encounters and enrage timers around your obsessed data miners. Yeah, that's awesome. Let's get that in there ASAP. Edited January 20, 2012 by EvanSnowWolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethemback Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No, "we" don't need them. The game is fine, playable and easy enough as it is now (in regards to anything that could be affected by the "most popular" addons). UI customization will be a plus that will make it better for many people too, but sometimes you just have to know the limits of how much "customization" you can allow. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaftyMcShaft Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Considering that generally speaking you're looking at a max of 16 people in a group... On average though, you're looking at 4 people... If in EITHER of those you cannot tell who is not holding their own, you don't need meters, you need glasses. That's why there are nifty things called icons for buffs/debuffs, visual cues in animations and 'theatrics' for skills, and other various things. Addons and meters are crutches for the VAST majority of people. Just because you see somebody casting doesn't mean they're playing well. Maybe they're using the wrong abilities at the wrong times. Maybe they're not timing attacks correctly for various procs and buffs. Maybe they didn't understand how their class works and they're stacking X when they should be stacking Y? In WoW physical hit cap is 8%. Hit chance over 8 does nothing and is completely wasted. I saw a hunter once with 14% hit. So are we supposed to inspect every player in the group to dissect their gearing choices? And watch every ability they use and in what order to identify who's not pulling their weight? If only there were some sort of additional modification you could add to the game, that might somehow track the results of a "log" of the combat data and then present it to players in some sort of meter...hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes bring on the addons. Someone can CHOOSE to use them or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmoose Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I want addon and macro capabilities in SWTOR. Please let us know if this is in plan or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombull Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Yes, please. Addons. Honestly I don't care if I never play WoW again, but I'd give anything to have its UI and addons here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaftyMcShaft Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 So you can vivvisect them and create an arbitrary number as to what the bottom is allowed to be. The number's not arbitrary. When it's a fight that requires everyone to pull 20k DPS and people are doing 6k... Would you not want that information? If you were the healer in that group you'd be fine wiping over and over again because the 6k guys think it's fun just to roll their faces across the keyboard? Is that a fun gameplay experience for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainianu Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) The only reason not to want DPS meters is so you can hide your poor performance from others. Would not possibly be the constant spam in group of what everyones dps is after each fight and completely ruining the atmosphere of a group.. naaah that wouldnt sway people against this addon at all. As a tank.. i neither want nor need a dps or threat meter unless it was PERSONAL ONLY. ie i could see my own dps/tanking statistics to know miss/block/deflect rates and such so i can figure which gear is working better for me. (and for my DPS alts i can figure which abilities to use more than others and get a good rotation right) Also DPS meters encourages BAD play in some bad players, who rather than follow scripted events and encounters correctly will stay on a boss to detriment of raid just to try and top the dps meter... neither need nor want that kind of behaviour in groups or operations. Oh and i cannot wait for the UI customisation looks great Edited January 20, 2012 by Ainianu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonktonkGigolo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 And then, now that you have played God and told everyone else what YOU think the max potential is, you then begin expecting others to live up to that and create restrictions on people. At which point, the developer retunes future encounters and enrage timers around your obsessed data miners. Yeah, that's awesome. Let's get that in there ASAP. So you're saying they don't already tune encounters around what a class should be doing? You're telling me the game developer doesn't have an idea of what class is doing what amount of DPS? Also, there are already restrictions in place set by, you guessed it, PLAYERS! Yay, players, happy community filled with sunshine, rainbows and unicorns like everyone says it should be. Here we have one doing it for selfishness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=177043&highlight=kicked+from+flash+point One who refuses to group with people who skip the story: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=162539&highlight=kicked+from+flash+point Kicked over a title, yay: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=190064&highlight=kicked+from+group I guess it's like Santa Claus and M&Ms... they DO exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 But, you see, I like my frames to have this very specific border, on a form of a grid, that light up this very specific way, and show debuffs as little color squares precisely on this place. That seems like an obsession. A compulsion. A disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velisella Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 /signed I'd like customized skins to downsize on the current clunky UI, a way to monitor threat, and a combat log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaluria Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No we don't thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowred Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Would not possibly be the constant spam in group of what everyones dps is after each fight and completely ruining the atmosphere of a group.. naaah that wouldnt sway people against this addon at all. As a tank.. i neither want nor need a dps or threat meter unless it was PERSONAL ONLY. ie i could see my own dps/tanking statistics to know miss/block/deflect rates and such so i can figure which gear is working better for me. (and for my DPS alts i can figure which abilities to use more than others and get a good rotation right) Also DPS meters encourages BAD play in some bad players, who rather than follow scripted events and encounters correctly will stay on a boss to detriment of raid just to try and top the dps meter... neither need nor want that kind of behaviour in groups or operations. Oh and i cannot wait for the UI customisation looks great Absolutely agree with this.... Have had raid wipes because *don't dps the boss* would take some-one from that number one spot on the meter. Bad players are not the ones with low dps in many cases. Add ons no thanks and if BW listen to the minority but loud whiners and just turn this into WOW in space good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightAndShade Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I disagree, strongly. UI Customization is all that is needed. No 3rd party add ons. No Damage Meters. Just my opinion of course While there is plenty of room for improvement in terms of customer service and official statements clarifying these issues, Bioware are heading in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzscramo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I would like Combat logs so I could improve my own DPS more than anything. Kinda flying blind atm. That, a threat meter and mouseovers would make me happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethemback Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Problem with an "optional" thing like addons is that, if enough people start using them, devs are forced to develop future content taking them into account. Increasing your overall performance implies that players using them would overcome challenges easier, and that would be reflected on their metrics, thus requiring changes on content. Else, that same people would say that the game is too easy. The example with the physical peripherals is not exactly the same as addons, and one of you has already said the reason: hardware costs money, addons are free. That means that the amount of people with an advantage by using those peripherals can be neglected when compared with the amount of people that could use any given addon. When something "optional" becomes mandatory for a vast amount of players in order to be able to play the game and stay competitive (even if they don't want to use them), then I say that it's not good at all. Cheers. Edited January 20, 2012 by Lethemback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Addons help address issues way faster. An addon can be made a few weeks to a couple months to improve something. Where it could take 6months to a year BW to address it. If there were addons there would probably be better a better actionbar system and raid frames available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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