The Proper Way to Farm Valor in Ilum (Updated for Patch)

[baskynn]

Seriously, you people are pitiful if you have to gain valor this way.

[Ryco]

I can't even blame Bioware for this, but pathetic players who rather get gear than actually have fun and play the game.

[Cial]

100% Bioware's fault.

 

Players will ALWAYS try to shortcut progression. Any dev worth his salt wouldve seen something like this being a possibility, and implemented DR to stop it.

[buttski]

this game is fubar.

[LaManoNera]

The only problem I have with this is...

 

I can't decide if it's EPICLY HEROIC or HEROICALLY EPIC :confused:

[Fenomen]

This is pathetic. Yes its also the Designers Fault, but those Players are so lame. Why play like that just for Epics. Sad thing, i bet half those Players could not even beat a real pvper if they live depend on it. Maybe they know this and try to compensate by getting gear advantage.

 

MMO will not bet getting anywhere if Players dont stop to go out of their way to get min/max advantage. Gearbased Rpgs are Fail, sadly most Poeple dont seem to realize this.

[Zatanic]

At least its fast and easy valor and battlemaster stuff, so you can compete in the WZ with the hardcore farmers and the cheaters abused WZ to get max lvl in a few days.

[Opkier]

Lol, It's called bringing the lack of diminishing returns to light so that things like this get fixed.

 

^ That right there.

[DarthOvertone]

Just goes to show you can't fix player mentality.

 

So-called PvPrs whine and cry about reasons/rewards for open world PvP but what they really want is a system that they can easily exploit.

 

Open World PvP reward systems fail not because of the systems but because of players fixated on pixel acquisition rather than fun PvP.

 

Bingo.

 

There is only so much that can be done. If Carebears are going to go to that much trouble to just farm each other, there isn't much anyone can do. Although diminishing returns would help, I'm sure they would figure out a way around even that change, like making more alts or something. This is precisely what happens when you let a bunch of talentless PvP wanna-bes in a PvP zone.

 

One can only imagine the fun that could have been had if they would have just all out fought each other. Instead of having good fights, they settled for a Champ Bag. haha /facepalm

 

Baddies will be bad...

[LordRaevin]

So much hate in this thread, isn't it obvious he's just pointing out the problem ?

I like the idea though, i can't be *********** bothered with these 15+ minute queue's just to have a game end early and get a pathetic 400-500 valor reward and 40 warzone commendations. Perhaps the Republic has a guild willing to exchange... hmm...

[Thiussat]

Let's not kid ourselves, kill trading happens in a lot of other games too. People are pretending like this is only a SWTOR issue when it's not. I saw the SAME exact thing happen in Rift with both factions working together to farm massive amounts of favor. And the same thing happened on their forums -- people shouted for bans and rage quit over it.

 

Really, this is a failure of the player base more than a failure of game design.

[_Borg_]

And yet those of us who think PvP gear progression is a bad idea get told we're crazy.

 

This is why the guild wars 2 PvP system in which you make PvP specific characters that automatically get equal PvP gear and access to all their skills is a better idea.

 

PvE is for progression and grinding, PvP is supposed to be about fun/competition.

[Volacious]

Each player should have a set amount of points distributed amongst the players that kill him/her.

 

Leaving it free to scale with the number of attackers leads to zergs.

[JediMasterShake]

This is why the guild wars 2 PvP system in which you make PvP specific characters that automatically get equal PvP gear and access to all their skills is a better idea.

 

 

This..............................

[Soazak]

Each player should have a set amount of points distributed amongst the players that kill him/her.

 

Leaving it free to scale with the number of attackers leads to zergs.

 

This should be standard for any PvP reward for killing other players.

 

 

The valour that someone is 'worth' when they die, should be split, not multiplied. This is why the entire zerg were getting 200 Valour per kill (20+180 bonus).

[Treebyrn]

I'm speechless. Are we that desperate for Valor? lol

 

As long as valor rank is tied to getting the best pvp gear then yes and as long as top end pvp gear is needed to be competitive then no one should ever expect anything more from the system we currently have.

 

You see, players know just how good the gear is and how long of a grind it can be to get said gear thus they will take any shortcuts they can to reach their goal of getting said gear.

 

 

Oh and I am sure someone is going to say.... "BS it does not take that long to grind out the gear" Note that these are probably the same people saying "I am pissed I GRINDED my a** off in warzones to get to valor rank 60 and now some noob who spent 1 day farming in Illum gained 8 valor ranks to hit valor rank 60".

[Treebyrn]

Let's not kid ourselves, kill trading happens in a lot of other games too. People are pretending like this is only a SWTOR issue when it's not. I saw the SAME exact thing happen in Rift with both factions working together to farm massive amounts of favor. And the same thing happened on their forums -- people shouted for bans and rage quit over it.

 

Really, this is a failure of the player base more than a failure of game design.

 

Actually this is a flaw or flaws within the game design. The first flaw is in the game that wants and touts open world pvp and then introduces exclusive pvp only gear tied to long grinds to get said gear, couple this with faction balance issues and you have got yourself into one heck of a mess. Players realize this and will often resort to the path of least resistance... in this case kill trading.

 

The 2nd flaw is not properly planning and testing of your pvp content before releasing it to your players.

[Shazbawt]

Each player should have a set amount of points distributed amongst the players that kill him/her.

 

Leaving it free to scale with the number of attackers leads to zergs.

 

What happens to healers?

[Almghty_gir]

this is a selection of ideas that both i and others have come up with that could help with the problems that exist in the game. they are by no means a "one tool fixes everything", and certainly they are just a starting point to go on.

 

so let's start with the current problems, some are fixable, others aren't...

1. this is a two faction game - this cannot be fixed, it's way too late to change it, and it will be there forever... if you don't like that, there are other games that are different. find them.
   
2. there are population imbalances - due to being a two faction game, this will always be apparent, whether the difference is large or small depends largely on the playerbase but there are things Bioware can do to remedy it somewhat.
   
3. faction pride - because you can roll both factions on the same server, the majority of players will feel very little pride in their own faction, there is no ownership or accountability. if you don't like how things are going... just alt on the other faction for a while! rather than actually try to push the rest of your faction to rally together.
   
4. the powerful get more powerful - currently due to game mechanics, the dominant faction has an easier time becoming more powerful, this has the knock on effect of making the underdog side feel even less inclined to compete... why compete when you're almost certain to lose, right?
   
5. pvp stats - a controvertial issue to be sure, many people feel it's necessary, many feel the opposite, we can explore it but it's doubtful that there will ever be a solution that everybody likes. sometimes the minority might have to tip it's head to the majority.
   
6. vertical progression - intrinsically tied into MMO's nowadays, especially ones that heavily involve pve content, is vertical progression... this is due to the mindset of most players that they simply "want bigger numbers". this is something that is quite possibly the biggest problem in PVP in any game, and always will be.
   

 

so let's tackle each issue one at a time, make some sense of it, and see what we can do to potentially solve the issue.

 

1. two faction game.

 

As i stated above, this will not change, it's too late to even think about it, sorry... however it is heavily tied into...

 

2. population imbalance.

 

Because this is a two faction game, one side will invariably outnumber the other. there are a few things that the developer can do to remedy the issue, such as imposing hard-caps on server factions, giving bonuses to the underdog faction, give penalties to the overpopulated faction, imposing instance limits per faction. but ultimately it all comes down to the players choice. regardless of anything the developer does, it's the player who makes the choice to roll on either faction.

 

3. cross faction players.

 

the ability to roll both factions on the same server is the most detrimental thing in any pvp game. it promotes "spying", and it also dissolves any form of "faction pride" that could ever have existed. it results in a fractured community of players who neither trust each other, or even in some cases want to even talk to each other. it makes organising the underdog realm very difficult as any potential gathering could be leaked to the dominating faction with disasterous results.

 

4. the great snowball.

 

this actually ties three things in together, each one is bad on it's own but when combined they make for a snowball that just gets bigger and bigger until it becomes unmanageable. it's sad to say that we're almost at that point already! but what are those three things?

• pvp stats
  
• vertical progression
  
• imbalanced populations
  

 

we've already covered population imbalance to a degree, but in this context it's important to note that due to current game mechanics, the overpopulated realm is just reaping huge rewards with little penalty. they're able to capture and hold all the objectives, whilst simultaniously dominate the underdog faction due to pure numbers, on top of all this, when (for example) 40 people "tag" a single enemy combatant, when that person dies all 40 people get the same reward as if only one person had made the kill... this is unacceptable by ALL standards. combine this with vertical progression, and not only do the dominant faction have an easier time getting higher tiered gear, but when they get there they become more powerful, making them not only harder to kill but also making it easier to kill the underdogs. and to top it all off, there's a pvp stat involved... one of the worst things to grace mmo's everywhere has been addopted here, and what it means now, is that because higher tiered gear has higher base stats, AND a higher allotment of pvp stats, the dominating realm is well and truly on its way to being unbeatable. when "new 50's" come into the fold, there really will be no place for them, and no means for them to challenge the overpopulated side.

 

But what can we do about allof this? nothing, it's in Biowares hands... and god i hope they can fix it. I'm sure they have ideas of their own, but then i'm also sure they thought the ideas they've already tried were good ones. disregarding the fact, of course, that those ideas both tried and failed in other games...

 

So, here are a few suggestions that might make BioWares life easier. a couple of things they could do to make things more enjoyable for players and make the game a better place all round.

 

1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following:

• when the serverwide population is imbalanced by 1.5:1 or greater, grant a +100% valor bonus SERVER WIDE to the underdog faction.
  
• when the instance population is imbalanced by 1.25:1 or greater, grant a 25% valor bonus which scales up to 400% when the population imbalance reaches 4:1.
  
• make valor per kill, and the bonus attached to it, become divided by the amount of players involved in the kill. so rather than 40 players gaining (20 valor + 180 valor bonus) for killing a single player, they would instead recieve (1 valor + 5 valor bonus) each. this will round UP to the nearest whole number.
  

 

this will grant a NON stat oriented incentive for the underdogs to get out there and fight. it will mean that in the absolute worst case scenario of being outnumbered by 4:1 or greater, the underdog will recieve the same valor per kill than the dominating faction will, even if the dominating faction controls all the objectives. it will also promote the idea that you are better off roaming in small groups looking for good even fights, than you are blobbing up in an almighty zerg, since you will gian less valor per kill as a zerg.

 

2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately, and do the following for a patch in the near future:

• tag Tionese, Columi, and Rakata gear, so that as soon as they enter a warzone, or initiate pvp, they recieve a 5% debuff to all stats. this would work similarly to how a player gets tagged with a trauma debuff when fighting, and the debuff vanishes when combat ends.
  

 

i realise many people see pvp stats as a way for pvp players to compete with pve players who have better stats on their gear due to the progression of pve gear. i get that, it's a reasonable argument. but it's been dealt with in completely the wrong way. what it's ended up doing is alienating any and all players who don't have the gear now, or in future, who are going to be faced up against high level players, probably on a dominant side, and it just all mounts up to having too much work to do, for too little gain.

 

there is still "progression" for all of those who wish to have it. the pvp gear still has tiers of stats, so you still get more numbers. but you will still struggle to complete high end pve content due to having lower stats than the pve sets. while at the same time, the pve gear will be great for pve, but will be on-par with the pvp sets, so there is no unfair advantage in that regard.

 

due to the way the bolster system works in warzones, this would also allow them to remove the 50 bracket, decreasing queue times to a globally accepted level, with minimal problems (after all, without expertise, there's little difference between fighting a 49 or a 50 with the bolster system as it averages out stats, moving high stats down where needed).

 

thanks for reading, i hope someone somewhere takes some notice.

cheers.

[Agroovesak]

As long as valor rank is tied to getting the best pvp gear then yes and as long as top end pvp gear is needed to be competitive then no one should ever expect anything more from the system we currently have.

 

You see, players know just how good the gear is and how long of a grind it can be to get said gear thus they will take any shortcuts they can to reach their goal of getting said gear.

 

 

Oh and I am sure someone is going to say.... "BS it does not take that long to grind out the gear" Note that these are probably the same people saying "I am pissed I GRINDED my a** off in warzones to get to valor rank 60 and now some noob who spent 1 day farming in Illum gained 8 valor ranks to hit valor rank 60".

 

Top end gear ISN'T needed to be competitive. It can't even carry these bads once they get it. A good player in champ/cent will blow away a bad player in full bm every time.

 

The only way to fix this is to make pvp not have any rewards, because these people who don't actually like to pvp will simply find anyway to abuse and exploit the system otherwise. These are probably the same people jumping over the laser fence in voidstar and such. Unfortunately, no rewards means maybe 5 people per server will actually pvp because nobody does anything for fun in an MMO anymore.

 

Thankfully the only requirement for good pvp gear in this game is to hit 50 and a slight amount of luck. BM is totally superfluous thanks to modifications.

 

And yes, I did the BM grind before the patch, no it doesn't matter if everyone on the server has bm gear. Maybe once they do they'll quit the game.

[Treebyrn]

this is a selection of ideas that both i and others have come up with that could help with the problems that exist in the game. they are by no means a "one tool fixes everything", and certainly they are just a starting point to go on.

 

so let's start with the current problems, some are fixable, others aren't...

1. this is a two faction game - this cannot be fixed, it's way too late to change it, and it will be there forever... if you don't like that, there are other games that are different. find them.
   
2. there are population imbalances - due to being a two faction game, this will always be apparent, whether the difference is large or small depends largely on the playerbase but there are things Bioware can do to remedy it somewhat.
   
3. faction pride - because you can roll both factions on the same server, the majority of players will feel very little pride in their own faction, there is no ownership or accountability. if you don't like how things are going... just alt on the other faction for a while! rather than actually try to push the rest of your faction to rally together.
   
4. the powerful get more powerful - currently due to game mechanics, the dominant faction has an easier time becoming more powerful, this has the knock on effect of making the underdog side feel even less inclined to compete... why compete when you're almost certain to lose, right?
   
5. pvp stats - a controvertial issue to be sure, many people feel it's necessary, many feel the opposite, we can explore it but it's doubtful that there will ever be a solution that everybody likes. sometimes the minority might have to tip it's head to the majority.
   
6. vertical progression - intrinsically tied into MMO's nowadays, especially ones that heavily involve pve content, is vertical progression... this is due to the mindset of most players that they simply "want bigger numbers". this is something that is quite possibly the biggest problem in PVP in any game, and always will be.
   

 

so let's tackle each issue one at a time, make some sense of it, and see what we can do to potentially solve the issue.

 

1. two faction game.

 

As i stated above, this will not change, it's too late to even think about it, sorry... however it is heavily tied into...

 

2. population imbalance.

 

Because this is a two faction game, one side will invariably outnumber the other. there are a few things that the developer can do to remedy the issue, such as imposing hard-caps on server factions, giving bonuses to the underdog faction, give penalties to the overpopulated faction, imposing instance limits per faction. but ultimately it all comes down to the players choice. regardless of anything the developer does, it's the player who makes the choice to roll on either faction.

 

3. cross faction players.

 

the ability to roll both factions on the same server is the most detrimental thing in any pvp game. it promotes "spying", and it also dissolves any form of "faction pride" that could ever have existed. it results in a fractured community of players who neither trust each other, or even in some cases want to even talk to each other. it makes organising the underdog realm very difficult as any potential gathering could be leaked to the dominating faction with disasterous results.

 

4. the great snowball.

 

this actually ties three things in together, each one is bad on it's own but when combined they make for a snowball that just gets bigger and bigger until it becomes unmanageable. it's sad to say that we're almost at that point already! but what are those three things?

• pvp stats
  
• vertical progression
  
• imbalanced populations
  

 

we've already covered population imbalance to a degree, but in this context it's important to note that due to current game mechanics, the overpopulated realm is just reaping huge rewards with little penalty. they're able to capture and hold all the objectives, whilst simultaniously dominate the underdog faction due to pure numbers, on top of all this, when (for example) 40 people "tag" a single enemy combatant, when that person dies all 40 people get the same reward as if only one person had made the kill... this is unacceptable by ALL standards. combine this with vertical progression, and not only do the dominant faction have an easier time getting higher tiered gear, but when they get there they become more powerful, making them not only harder to kill but also making it easier to kill the underdogs. and to top it all off, there's a pvp stat involved... one of the worst things to grace mmo's everywhere has been addopted here, and what it means now, is that because higher tiered gear has higher base stats, AND a higher allotment of pvp stats, the dominating realm is well and truly on its way to being unbeatable. when "new 50's" come into the fold, there really will be no place for them, and no means for them to challenge the overpopulated side.

 

But what can we do about allof this? nothing, it's in Biowares hands... and god i hope they can fix it. I'm sure they have ideas of their own, but then i'm also sure they thought the ideas they've already tried were good ones. disregarding the fact, of course, that those ideas both tried and failed in other games...

 

So, here are a few suggestions that might make BioWares life easier. a couple of things they could do to make things more enjoyable for players and make the game a better place all round.

 

1. Heavily incentivise the underdog faction by doing the following:

• when the serverwide population is imbalanced by 1.5:1 or greater, grant a +100% valor bonus SERVER WIDE to the underdog faction.
  
• when the instance population is imbalanced by 1.25:1 or greater, grant a 25% valor bonus which scales up to 400% when the population imbalance reaches 4:1.
  
• make valor per kill, and the bonus attached to it, become divided by the amount of players involved in the kill. so rather than 40 players gaining (20 valor + 180 valor bonus) for killing a single player, they would instead recieve (1 valor + 5 valor bonus) each. this will round UP to the nearest whole number.
  

 

this will grant a NON stat oriented incentive for the underdogs to get out there and fight. it will mean that in the absolute worst case scenario of being outnumbered by 4:1 or greater, the underdog will recieve the same valor per kill than the dominating faction will, even if the dominating faction controls all the objectives. it will also promote the idea that you are better off roaming in small groups looking for good even fights, than you are blobbing up in an almighty zerg, since you will gian less valor per kill as a zerg.

 

2. remove pvp stats from the game immediately, and do the following for a patch in the near future:

• tag Tionese, Columi, and Rakata gear, so that as soon as they enter a warzone, or initiate pvp, they recieve a 5% debuff to all stats. this would work similarly to how a player gets tagged with a trauma debuff when fighting, and the debuff vanishes when combat ends.
  

 

i realise many people see pvp stats as a way for pvp players to compete with pve players who have better stats on their gear due to the progression of pve gear. i get that, it's a reasonable argument. but it's been dealt with in completely the wrong way. what it's ended up doing is alienating any and all players who don't have the gear now, or in future, who are going to be faced up against high level players, probably on a dominant side, and it just all mounts up to having too much work to do, for too little gain.

 

there is still "progression" for all of those who wish to have it. the pvp gear still has tiers of stats, so you still get more numbers. but you will still struggle to complete high end pve content due to having lower stats than the pve sets. while at the same time, the pve gear will be great for pve, but will be on-par with the pvp sets, so there is no unfair advantage in that regard.

 

due to the way the bolster system works in warzones, this would also allow them to remove the 50 bracket, decreasing queue times to a globally accepted level, with minimal problems (after all, without expertise, there's little difference between fighting a 49 or a 50 with the bolster system as it averages out stats, moving high stats down where needed).

 

thanks for reading, i hope someone somewhere takes some notice.

cheers.

 

WoW very well said.. you good Gir deserve a plate full of brownies .

 

Bioware please read this post and take notice!

 

PS. You need to start a thread with this exact post thus maybe more people will read it... if of course it does not get buried on page 10 within the first 2 minutes.

 

If you do not then I might.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Treebyrn

[GameNirvana]

You know, if there was no *********** pvp gear, this wouldn't be a problem.

 

AGAIN! BW, this is why we should have PvP gear! Get it through your head! Watch, when everyone finally get's fully geared in Battlemaster gear, then PvP will be fun because everyone will get kills purely based upon skill with their class.

 

If you wanna do this properly BW, either get rid of Battlemaster Gear and just let everyone get champion gear, and leave it at that FOREVER; or go ahead and let everyone get Battlemaster Gear, and leave it at that forever.

 

PvP gear causes way more problems with balance, cheating, and nerd rage than it helps with anything else at all! Stop copying WoW. People have had enough of that game. Hell I played for two months, and I hated their pvp.

[Xinika]

It's the same everywhere, idiots with college degrees (ie they went to high school for a few extra years) making decisions for things based on their studying out of date text books rather than on any first hand experience.

 

In my business i would employ someone with 4 years experience doing a job over someone with 4 years sitting in a classroom reading about doing a job any day of the year.

 

Oh I so agree. +50

[Xinika]

You know, if there was no *********** pvp gear, this wouldn't be a problem.

 

AGAIN! BW, this is why we should have PvP gear! Get it through your head! Watch, when everyone finally get's fully geared in Battlemaster gear, then PvP will be fun because everyone will get kills purely based upon skill with their class.

 

If you wanna do this properly BW, either get rid of Battlemaster Gear and just let everyone get champion gear, and leave it at that FOREVER; or go ahead and let everyone get Battlemaster Gear, and leave it at that forever.

 

PvP gear causes way more problems with balance, cheating, and nerd rage than it helps with anything else at all! Stop copying WoW. People have had enough of that game. Hell I played for two months, and I hated their pvp.

 

WoW is the #1 MM0 atm. Copying it might not be a bad idea.

 

I also completely disagree with not having PvP gear. People should EARN the gear. See what I did there? EARN. Not *********** farm. This whole system is a mess.

[Devorasx]

This is Rift all over again.