Gunslinger is to weak compared to other classes

[Moolah]

Hi there.

 

I play 50 lvl sniper on PvP EU server the Ravager. This server is heavy populated with lots of 50 above 60 valor rank and more in full/near full champ PvP gear.

 

My gear is mix of battlemaster/champ also using some custom made crit/surge enchantments instead of some default accuracy/power PvP items enchantments. I use biochem also.

 

I played a lot of marksman spec, currently I play lethality spec.

 

Nowadays I'm not in the mood of calling nerfs especially after news about operatives coming changes.

 

What I'm really for to raise some highlights about current sniper (and rep counterpart) problems.

 

First, it has 3 damage talent trees being pure damage dealing class. Other rich possibilities avaible to hybrid aclasses are restricted to sniper. This influences over many things from variety of PvP tactic choices to possible quantity of warzone medals.

 

Even fully DPS specced hybrid classes enjoy having basic heals/protects/dispels etc from common architype.

 

Since sniper has no choice but deal damage it is very important that sniper damage (and his pure aclass brother marader) should be higher than fully DPS specced hybrid classes. Currently fully DPS specced hybrid classes in PvP have equal burst/sustained damage or even more than sniper.

 

In case of marksman specced sniper mentioned above situation is an outcome of:

 

- developers desicion to make nearly all marksman sniper attacks advanced version of basic rifle shot attack. You can check on torhead, they are just weapon attack like basic autoattack. That makes damage from such attacks not only to be mitigated by armor, but also shielded by personal shield generators, be dodged by players defence.

- developers desicion to make nealry all marksman sniper (actually it applies to all sniper specs) attacks (except series of shots) to show clear sign above target head making them highly avoidable by LoSing/popping immunities before they deal intended damage.

- developers decision to add a lot of hard damage mitigation abilities and/or dodge abilities or absorbing shields plus taunt/guard abilities on top of them on demand. Some of that abilities are very very consistend and painful for pure DPS class like 99 % damage reduction on marader, for example. Surprisingly enough sniper (I suspect marader too) does not get any exclusive for pure DPS aclass hard damage increase abilities and/or ignore armor (except shot - 20 % armor on target) or piercing shielding/dodging abilities on demand. By "on demand" I mean activable abilities that require skill and timing, not passive or RNG proc abilities.

- developers decision to make marksman sniper super weak against LoS play of opponents. Since sniper roots/incapacitate break on damage, stun is melee range it is impossible to have one in line of sight if he does not want to. Snipe also have no runner/catcher abilities (speed increase, untalented slow).

 

Complex of circumstances makes marksman sniper damage on geared lvl 50 insignificant for aclass that can only damage, becasue if pure DPS class does bad damage it is completely useless.

 

Lethality sniper, on the other hand potentially has more damage ouput because dots bypass shielding and defence and internal damage from cull ability bypass armor. Still 3 advanced classes have dispells, some advanced classes (operative) can remove dots with other abilities and some aclasses can not only remove them but stay immune for some time (assasin). On mentioned server seems lot of people know how dispel.

 

Hard damage mitigation on the other hand plays the same for lethality sniper as for marksman sniper.

 

Second, the survivability of sniper is under the ground. Actually it is somewhere on the other side of a black hole. Defensive CD are: evasion 3 (4 with operative pvp set) sec of total melee/ranged white attack dodge and total 1200 dmg absorb shield (1600 with engeneering tree high tier talent) for 12 sec or until depleted by damage.

 

One might say: "The cover". At the moment I find cover useful in one situation - I sit on the front of a zerg camping Ilum base entrance and the cover prevents me being pulled by jedi shadow from stealth to the opposite group. Cover mechanics has so much intended weakneses built-in (like susceptibility to all slight forms of CCs even roots, enforcing character immobilization thus taking away usability of LoS objects, making desirable target for stealthers) so it actually burdens sniper character in PvP (except Ilum "zerg" situation of course).

 

Operatives (same Imperail agent architype) have the same toolset of defensive CD's except no entrench, but stealth and enchanced evasion makes them much more survivable.

 

So no hard damage mitigation, no long lasting defensive abilities. Other classes have much more, still having damage and hybrid benefits.

 

Third, sniper itemization. Did I mention PvP sniper set (field tech) bonuses suck? Yes they do a lot compared to other aclasses set bonuses. Did I mention a tonns of accuracy on PvP gear and somewhat a soft cap for accuracy % from rating approx at + 11 %, so that u can remove a 150 accuracy rating without actually loosing %?

 

Sniper concept needs serious rework in ways what cover does and how ot works, sniper survivability or sniper hard damage armor/dodge/shield piercing increase on demand.

 

Lethality snipers can enjoy some % to resist dispel and removal for dots too.

 

 

Thank you, I think you have touched most of the problems of the advanced class.

 

I would also like to add the cover defense bonus is based on a 20% increase of ranged defense, which is mostly other gunslingers/snipers anyway. The delayed combat activation time seems to strike us the most, since we need to get in cover first. There are some bugs in the cover system, such as immobilization debuffs refraining taking cover.

[Sirolos]

Umm Bounty Hunter is more than fine right now. Say otherwise and you dont know what you're talking about.

 

And im simply stating facts here.

 

BH has a knockback, does not require cover, superior to Sniper

BH has a stun, has range on it, Sniper's is melee range, Superior to sniper

BH has cast time damage abilities, deal more or equal amounts of damage to similar cast time abilites of snipers, does not require cover, again Superior to Sniper

BH has high damage mitigation, Sniper has the low damage mitigation.

BH can have heals/dispels, Sniper can have.. cover?

 

I guess BH have it rough eh?

 

Go roll a Bounty Hunter

 

Then tell me how good that assassins or murauder feels when they Stick to you and interrupt you.

[Keldaur]

I do not know on what server u are playing, but mara/jugg is definetely not the class that sniper eats for breakfast.

 

Not even close.

 

Sorcs ... if you have a jump will just force speed away LoS and heal. So no too.

 

Sorry, but u are a big smacktalking person.

 

Yup you are right. You can only kill stupid mara's/sentinels. the ones who doesn't know they got obfuscate/pacify to begin with.

[kreated]

Yup you are right. You can only kill stupid mara's/sentinels. the ones who doesn't know they got obfuscate/pacify to begin with.

 

Yeh, I can't even go near a rage specced jugg or a mara/sent, they eat me for breakfast if they know what they are doing.

 

My main is a rage specced jugg, whenever I see a gunslinger/op standing about alone, it literally feels like a free kill

[Tylerlee]

Snipers hit like a truck. They may not have the mobility other classes have but they are immune to knockbacks, etc while in cover.

 

Wrong, they are immune to pulls and leaps. thats it.

[Lerdoc]

Im Sorry you don't know what you're doing. I eat sorcs for breakfast. Mauraders and Ops too. BH is 50/50. Juggs are fools with light sabers.

 

You mean the stupid sorcs that don't know what LOS is? Yea, I eat them too, but I'm talking about competitive pvp with people actually knowing what they are doing. If I get the jump on ops/mara I'll most likely eat them too, but the case is, OPs are choosing their fights, not us and smart mara will sneak to you easily with their cooldowns and pull you out of cover, then you're pretty much dead meat.

[Desgarden]

In general:

 

I wonder that snipers and GS aren't and overplayed class already considering they are SUCH awesome killing machines as some people in this thread claim.

 

You know, a class which is always in the top 3 for damage, which can cope easily with all stealthers and even rocks the socks of the infamous sorcerers. Heck, every c00l l33tz0r will play that one.

 

That alone should tell you, that the shortcomings are there and that snipers/GS perform subpar or do you really think that people who like competetive pvp wouldn't roll such a class only because they do not have a lightsaber?

 

 

You're right, I've never played a sniper

I've played a gunslinger

GOOD CATCH

 

 

One guy says "This class is terrible, BUFF ME"

Another guy says "This class is fine, I do well"

This first guy says "Well clearly YOU have never played the class before"

Logical fallacy, much

 

No, it is like this:

 

One guy says "This class is terrible, BUFF ME" ---> points at the constructive threads in e.g. the sniper forum where in several threads the shortcomings are explained WITH the game mechanics and an explanation to prove what is wrong.

 

Another guy says (like you) "This class is fine, I do well. You all suck. L2P" --> with no real arguments and just big words.

 

Oh wait...pseudo arguments are brought up like leg shot, stun etc. As if the other classes don't have cc or counter cc of their own ah no wait...entrench is up 24/7 and snipers never move.

 

Also, about entrench. Usually you get jumped by a stealther when your entrench is down or when you have to move. Oh wait...I forgot, you told us in anolther thread that you never move as the great sniper that you are Oh, and there you couldn't come up with even one legit argument either, so.... /shrug

 

Quite honestly, I think you do not play a sniper or GS, simply because you argue with abilities which look good on paper but how they work and/or get countered is something entirely else.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Desgarden

[Lerdoc]

You should check this thread too:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227860&page=2

 

I just love how the dude(sorcerer) argues that gunslingers have superior CC and survivability skills.

[Edex]

Try assasin, at least you have range.

[Edenwolf]

I play a 50 gunslinger and overall I think the class is fine, however I do feel there are some shortcomings. I play 90% sharpshooter spec(ranged single target) with a few points specced elsewhere. Here are my complaints:

 

I've heard it before, sentinels and I believe marauders have access to a heal debuff. This makes sense as they are pure dps classes. I feel gunslinger/sniper, being pure dps classes are missing this.

 

The mechanic can be quite a burden at times due to ability and server lag. Sometimes on flat surfaces, trying to get into cover brings up an error massage, something like yields unexpected results which disallows me to get in cover. To fix this I have to move several feet 1-3 times in order to find a good foothold. Also, there are times cover takes 1-2 seconds to register making cover seem like a casted ability. 90% of our abilities require cover.

 

I feel this class has the worst action point management in the game. Our main attack requires a large chunk of action points while we have very little, next to no specable tactics to recharge outside our baseline recharge ability. Many times I am out of energy quickly and have to get out of combat multiple times a battle in order to recharge. I have yet to see another class having to do this on a regular basis besides to regen health.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Edenwolf

[Xenon-se]

...spam tracer missile tracer missile tracer misisle unload HT tracer missile tracer missile.

 

Which is all Energy damage...

 

the sniper little cover absorb about 0% of Energy damage..

Please don't confuse Attack Type (Melee, Ranged, Tech and Force) with Damage Type (Energy, Kinetic, Internal and Elemental).

 

Tracer Missile is a Tech attack (Tech and Force is as close to a "Magic" attack as you can get). This is why it can not be dodged. Not because it does Energy damage.

 

Most Sniper attacks also deal Energy damage (they deal the same damage type as your rifle), the difference is that most Sniper attacks are Ranged attacks (not Tech).

[Tylerlee]

I think the class as a whole is fine, would i like some buffs? yes, do i think there are problems? of course.

 

There is one single area that we suffer more than any other class in the game, that is damage mitigation. Every single one of our abilities is classified as weapon dmg (ie, an auto attack) so our damage numbers get shredded the moment it encounters a guard/shield.

 

Every other class does not suffer this, that is the problem.

[Xenon-se]

The fact that a class like MERC and SORC does energy damage for all their abilities is completely and utterly stupid.

Snipers deal Energy damage on all their Ranged attacks as well....

 

Energy and Kinetic Damage is reduced by armor.

Internal and Elemental is not.

 

I think you meant to write Tech or Force Attacks (as opposed to Melee or Ranged attacks).

[Xenon-se]

Tell me more about weapon damage plz.

There is no damage type called weapon damage... Abilities that say weapon damage simply state that the ability deal the same Weapon damage type as your weapon (for blasters, light sabers etc this is almost always Energy Damage). The attack type of weapons that deal the same damage type as the weapon is either a Melee attack or a Ranged attack.

 

Melee and Ranged attacks can be dodged and blocked/absorbed by shields. Melee and Ranged attacks deal White damage numbers and have a 10% base chance to miss.

 

Tech and Force attacks can not be dodged and blocked and they have a 0% base chance to miss.

 

Tanks feel shields in general (and more specific tank PvP equipment compared to DPS PvP equipment) are not useful enough in PvP - most attacks from most classes are Tech or Force.

Every other class does not suffer this, that is the problem.

Most. Not all.

 

Classes with a lot of Melee Attacks are Marauders/Sentinels and Juggernaut/Guardian that does not spec into the shared talent tree (Rage, a common PvP DPS spec) and Assassins/Shadows that does not spec into the shared talent tree (Madness). Every other melee spec use mostly Tech or Force attacks (some even ignore a lot of armor with internal or elemental damage - or, as in the case of Operatives, have a powerful armor debuff)

 

There is only one ranged class with a lot of Ranged Attacks, that is Snipers/Gunslingers that spec into Marksman/Sharpshooter. Every other range spec use mostly Tech or Force attacks (some even ignore a lot of armor with internal or elemental damage).

 

Some people argue that some attacks that are Tech today maybe should be a Ranged attack instead (such as Tracer Missile) and some attacks that are Tech today should be Melee attacks instead (such as Operative Backstab - Since Assassin Maul is a Melee attack -, Operative Shiv and Bounty Hunter Rocket Punch...)

 

There are also arguments that some of all the Ranged Attacks that Marksman Snipers have should be converted to a Tech attack, a powerful armor reducing or penetrating ability or share the same mortal strike debuff that Marauders get.

 

As it stand right now Marskman Snipers / Sharpshooter Gunslingers should really really try to pick another target than one of the three tank classes (Juggernaut, Assassin unless you are sure the Assassin is not in Dark Charge... and Powertechs). Since Marksman Sniper does not have a powerful armor reducing ability they should probably also avoid Mercenaries as well... Then again - Working together with a class that can debuff armor (Operative using Acid Blade, Mercenary using Tracer Missiles...) is, at least on paper, pretty darn powerful - since Snipers are balanced around the fact all their abilities will be resisted by armor (and defense).

 

 

Then again, it might be by design by BW;

Tech Power is almost useless for a Marksman Sniper since they don't use any Tech attacks. Accuracy is almost useless for an Operative (but VERY good for a Sniper if you plan on shooting a target with defensive rating) since they do almost only Tech attacks.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Xenon-se

[teyngodown]

Umm Bounty Hunter is more than fine right now. Say otherwise and you dont know what you're talking about.

 

And im simply stating facts here.

 

BH has a knockback, does not require cover, superior to Sniper

BH has a stun, has range on it, Sniper's is melee range, Superior to sniper

BH has cast time damage abilities, deal more or equal amounts of damage to similar cast time abilites of snipers, does not require cover, again Superior to Sniper

BH has high damage mitigation, Sniper has the low damage mitigation.

BH can have heals/dispels, Sniper can have.. cover?

 

I guess BH have it rough eh?

 

I play a BH merc pyrotech and alot of what you say is true. We do have alot of damage potential with mobility. Again the mobility only comes with being a pyrotech. If i'm capping an objective whether its a door/turret and a GS crits me in the *** for 4k+ i'm now on the defensive. I have to LOS to heal up. While i'm going to LOS you can root me and i have 2 choices blow some CD's to mitigate damage or eat it while i'm trying to heal. I can blow my CC break but then you'll just blind me giving you plenty of time to line up an auto crit. I can electro dart you giving me time to get incendiary missile,TD and railshot off but you can just use your snare break meaning you're now going to outdamage me while i'm trying to damage you. Yes i'm going to LOS and heal up. But all that does is postpone the inevitable. What you've done by putting me on the defensive is one of 2 things. Force me to blow CD's to kill you or save my CD's and give your TEAM time to come melt me.

 

NOW if both our teams are busy fighting each other at another turret or the other door, and its just me and you....well then i'm sorry i'm just going to los heal up and keep doing the same 3-4 things to you over and over till you die period.

 

Arsenal Merc on the other hand is WAY different. Thier attack(tracer missile) requires them to be in the open and they have to do it a minimum of 5 times to make thier other 2 abilities(Rail Shot and Heatseeker) effective. They have to do it 3 times for HS (if they spent the skill point for 2 ticks per tracer) and the last 2 for railshot. I'm sorry but anyone that thinks Tracer Missile does more damage than the standard sniper shot is an idiot that has never played an arsenal merc. Arsenal Mercs damage comes from crits on HS and RS plain and simple. Arsenal Merc is all about the finisher. BUT arsenal mercs also suffer from the same things snipers do. You want to beat them just Los them when they're trying to setup thier finishers by getting thier tracers off and thier easy prey.

[PlagaNerezza]

Snipers hit like a truck. They may not have the mobility other classes have but they are immune to knockbacks, etc while in cover.

 

We are not immune to knockbacks in cover. We have to use a skill (hunkerdown for gunslingers) to gain cc/interrupt immunity for 20 seconds on a 60 second cooldown. It is highly effective in zerging pvp where you can keep punishing targets and anyone wasting there cc's on you are not able to do them against groupmates, thus allowing them to keep dps/interrupting the other group. In cover we cannot be pulled/jumped to.

 

What I found is that solo with defenses up I am very tough to kill. When they hit cooldown I have to trip shot wait 2 seconds than flash and run to friends.

 

I do plenty of damage, maybe the OP is attacking guarded targets. I could use more time on dodge. Frankly, hunkerdown should be cover. I think if hunkerdown could be boosted to be usable through skills to keep it up I'd be happy.

 

I don't understand how Risha can use one and I cannot. Two pistols is cool, but honestly the rifle art is so fantastic. It's also easier to update.

 

I'd love a burst sprint to get some escapability.

 

My wishlist:

Pulse can be used anytime not just in cover.

Dodge for 10 seconds on a 60 second cooldown.

Hunkerdown ability timer removed, cast cost increased

Sprint

Sniper Rifle as a gunslinger

Shield off-hand

 

I've found to you must keep an eye on targets. They may as tanks have immunity to dmg up. I typically use speed shot on those guys as some of those have numbers of hits taken to drop that defense.

[Desgarden]

Why do you want dodge to have 10 sec? It is worthless against most attacks anyway.

[bodatious]

Melee and Ranged attacks can be dodged and blocked/absorbed by shields. Melee and Ranged attacks deal White damage numbers and have a 10% base chance to miss.

 

Lightsaber classes also have a 10% chance to deflect incoming blaster fire.

 

That is really the straw that breaks the cammels back for me. I had takedown (execute) deflected by an inquisitor 3 times in one WZ last night. 1 of them cost me the fight. The other prevented a kill because he sprinted away.

 

Additionaly why do many our attacks put a visable annimation on the target while we are casting it? Its just a huge sign that says, move away, or pop ur defensive CD.

[Gaidax]

Here is a fresh one did 10 mins ago, solo queue no less...

 

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2360/screenshot2012012421504.jpg

 

Marksmanship, btw...

 

 

I could have tossed some from my collection, but then you would whine that it was something that happened once in a while...

 

Basically, whoever claims that we can't do damage or kill things need to l2p...

 

 

But yeah, feel free to buff Snipers, more power to me really...

Edited January 24, 2012 by Gaidax

[Desgarden]

Here is a fresh one did 10 mins ago, solo queue no less...

 

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2360/screenshot2012012421504.jpg

 

Marksmanship, btw...

 

 

I could have tossed some from my collection, but then you would whine that it was something that happened once in a while...

 

Basically, whoever claims that we can't do damage or kill things need to l2p...

 

 

But yeah, feel free to buff Snipers, more power to me really...

 

 

 

Ok, ignorance is bliss but this is usually the case with people who need to come up with "l2p" followed by how l33t they are.

 

Too bad that you do not get anything when it comes to game mechanics else you wouldn't write that stuff.

 

The restrictions are still there: the damage mitigation and the target restriction, the piss-poor synergy of the trees, the restriction with which our cc comes, and also the restriction based on us by the energy regeneration rate.

 

 

 

 

Now to the sniper: I did yesterday as a marksman 410k damage. Why? The enemy was badly geared whereas I sit on a full cham/cent outfit plus most of the enemy team decided that it is shower time and rejoiced in my orbital attack.

 

Oh, then I did more damage then you. Hey, this means I am more l33t than you and therefore right! /sarcasm off

[DestyOwn]

Here is a fresh one did 10 mins ago, solo queue no less...

 

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2360/screenshot2012012421504.jpg

 

Marksmanship, btw...

 

 

I could have tossed some from my collection, but then you would whine that it was something that happened once in a while...

 

Basically, whoever claims that we can't do damage or kill things need to l2p...

 

 

But yeah, feel free to buff Snipers, more power to me really...

 

Dude Voidstars says it all.............

 

Orbital Strike , Supress Fire, Grenades... Damn a WZ where they have to stand in your orbital strike.

 

I always do this kind of damage alllll the time on this map, and anyways the damage on Voidstar can go either way. if the other team is garbage you wont get any damage for attack and abit of damage on defense.

 

and all they had no Tanks or PT?

Edited January 24, 2012 by DestyOwn

[Mormoz]

sad but true, damage is mediocre and you have not enough survival tools. (Damage mitigation skills like absorb and stuff are to weak or dont last long enough, maybe absorb like 1k damage)

 

Bountyhunters and other classes outdamage you, have heavy armor and selfheal

and are not a pure dps class like we are. (something is seriously wrong here)

 

On top of that, the stupid cover system is preventing you from doing damage because it happens alot that enemies just LOS or sprint away. Also every build that i tested now has energy problems up to the point where its just better to die and have full bar of energy rather then wait for energy to return and being useless for like 1 minute ..

 

Competent Teams will also knock, choke, push you out of cover the whole time.

Only viable build for PVP is lethality (the one with the dots) I have around 400 expertise and manage to deal around 250-300k damage in a WZ without going to cover a single time.

 

LOS is less of a problem because of the dots ticking and you dont have to waste time and GCD for going to cover ...

Only downside of the dots is that they instantly break flash grenade and legshot, so this two skills become useless once you have dotted people

 

BW you should revisit this class and think over the cover system, thanks

 

If you think Gunslinger/Sniper -or any other class really- is weak compared to other classes, then you don't fully know how to play your current class.

 

Gunslinger/Sniper can put some pretty amazing dps numbers down, probaly the highest of the entire game, if you'd ask me.

The downside to that is that you have to use cover: you're immobilized. But if you know how to properly use cover, it really isn't that big of an issue. Just search a spot where you have a large view over the entire battle (don't go sit right in the middle of course:rolleyes:). And if someone does break LoS or sprints away, let them. You got them out of the main fight and thus neutralized them for a couple of seconds. Plenty of other targets on which you can unleash your dps

 

And for me personally: Cover + Entrench + Ballistic Shield + Shield Probe + Relics + Orbital Bombardment at your current location = You're a God (atleast for a couple of seconds:D)

[Dogfatherxx]

Even at 550 expertise, a sniper can not put out nearly the damage against equally geared players as one might expect from a pureDPS class. Boost their single target DPS by about 10-25% and they will be competative. As it stands now, there is no reason to play a sniper. An opening combo of ambush and followthrough barely makes a dent in a health bar.

[DestyOwn]

Even at 550 expertise, a sniper can not put out nearly the damage against equally geared players as one might expect from a pureDPS class. Boost their single target DPS by about 10-25% and they will be competative. As it stands now, there is no reason to play a sniper. An opening combo of ambush and followthrough barely makes a dent in a health bar.

 

if it doesnt get deflected or absorbed...

[MurderBunny]

If you think Gunslinger/Sniper -or any other class really- is weak compared to other classes, then you don't fully know how to play your current class.

 

Gunslinger/Sniper can put some pretty amazing dps numbers down, probaly the highest of the entire game, if you'd ask me.

The downside to that is that you have to use cover: you're immobilized. But if you know how to properly use cover, it really isn't that big of an issue. Just search a spot where you have a large view over the entire battle (don't go sit right in the middle of course:rolleyes:). And if someone does break LoS or sprints away, let them. You got them out of the main fight and thus neutralized them for a couple of seconds. Plenty of other targets on which you can unleash your dps

 

And for me personally: Cover + Entrench + Ballistic Shield + Shield Probe + Relics + Orbital Bombardment at your current location = You're a God (atleast for a couple of seconds:D)

 

You have no idea what you are talking about your combo is a waste of time and abilities.

Cover will get you killed vs any competent team.

 

Gunslingers can get good numbers, but it not because of our mechanics, but it is inspite of it. GO dirty fighting it will make your life a million times better. It still sucks compared to the 1 ability spammers, but at least you no longer have to use cover or weapon Damage.

 

Sharpshooter is for PvE Dirty Fighting is for PvP.