Threat Concerns

[Rast]

Hey all,

 

I apologize if this has been posted elsewhere. I didn't see anything in the first 8 pages or so of the general forums, but obviously, these forums move fast.

 

I have tanked in MMOs for years. I'm currently a very well-geared Vanguard tank that has downed every fight in the game up to Soa HM--we got him to 14% on our last attempt.

 

I was initially one of the best-geared members of my guild. When we started running HM flash points and raids, our dps wasn't nearly as solid as it is now. As our dps has geared up, their ability to pull aggro--and my ability to hold is--has changed dramatically.

 

I am great with single targets. I will have an incredible dps'er pull occasionally, but if they carefully utilize threat drops and manage their dps, we're usually o.k. I emphasize o.k. Quick taunts are almost always needed.

 

If, however, we're dealing with a large pull and I waste even one global cool down targeting an additional mob--or if a fight has adds that I'm required to control--it's a given that somebody will pull aggro.

 

Basically, tanking in this game is becoming more frustrating that tanking in any game I've previously played.

 

For reference, I've tanked for a US top-20 WoW guild for years. I tanked during vanilla WoW--the wait for 5 sunders and start dps'ing days--and I tanked at the end of WotLK--the herd 'em up and aoe everything lol mode days.

 

I'm not asking or requesting lol easy mode. I like the game. But there are two main concerns I have.

 

1. Tanks like to control fights. We like to be able to manage adds, hold aggro, and do our job well. This is VERY difficult--if not impossible--at current in SWTOR. The threat/pull aggro margin is simply too small. Even as a Vanguard with much superior aoe damage and treat vs. a Guardian, pulling threat is simply too easy.

 

2. Fun matters--tanks losing aggro isn't fun. DPS throttling their play isn't fun. Healers frantically spamming aoe heals or mass healing the group isn't fun. The current threat mechanics worry me; long-term, some balance is needed to keep things solid.

 

My suggestions? Increase the threat modifier from the tanking buffs (ion cell, etc.) to 80 or 100%. Give us some cushion. Threat is such a fine line at current; using one global cooldown on a ranged mob to control it shouldn't lead to the loss of aggro on the primary mob your tanking.

 

I'd love any other thoughts and suggestions. Thanks for adding to a constructive discussion.

 

Rast

[tiennen]

I've noticed the same thing when it comes to tanks.

 

Played a Powertech, and had lots of threat issues.

 

Played a Guardian, and no probs single-target, but the AoE targets wouldn't stay on me.

 

 

I'm rolling a Shadow tank now, gonna see if they're any better.

[PjPablo]

It would be interesting to see how threat is actually working in this game. I know some hate this but I would really like something like Omen so I could see threat in action.

[iskoaya]

I FEKIN HATE HEALING RAWR....

 

no actualy i love healing ops in this game its very fun, and dont realy have a problem with tanks holding agro... so please... read your tooltips and all will be good

[tiennen]

It would be interesting to see how threat is actually working in this game. I know some hate this but I would really like something like Omen so I could see threat in action.

 

honestly, a threat meter would be wonderful.

 

its hard to manage something that you can't see.

[kiddeth]

OP, I am going to give you the advice you have gotten many time before, probably.

 

This is not the other game you were playing.

You did not start that game being as good as you were when you left it.

It is going to take some time before you learn stay on top of a situation.

 

Like everything else in life ( and games ) you get out what you put in.

[Ruuprect]

On topic,

 

I always get aggro in instances as a healer. From what I hear is tanks do not have a lot of tools to gather hate and for some reason healers are really good at getting hate even when avoiding overhealz. It does not seem like the threat drop abilities work properly either.

 

They should do something about threat. A threat meter would be pricless.

[Battyone]

To put my on topic info back into this post:

 

I rarely see DPS peel aggro yet, mostly it's healers that have issues with threat control. Since we have no way of metering threat, we just have to roll with it and be ready to hit our threat reduction CD.

 

We're learning the mechanics of this game and threat is a really huge mechanic, even when things like Omen came out in WoW threat was still not 100% "known". I'd even venture to say that to this day threat is the least understood mechanic in WoW.

[Tahana]

On topic,

 

I always get aggro in instances as a healer. From what I hear is tanks do not have a lot of tools to gather hate and for some reason healers are really good at getting hate even when avoiding overhealz. It does not seem like the threat drop abilities work properly either.

 

They should do something about threat. A threat meter would be pricless.

 

I see quite a few healers taking aggro from tanks on large pull mobs. I always end up running back and as a JK using my burst to dps them down while the tank attempts to control the rest.

 

I have seen a lot of other DPS though not really worry when mobs start heading the healer direction and kinda do a wth.. I'm not sure if they need to increase tank threat so much as lessen healer threat.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Tahana

[tiennen]

I agree with threat being a very unsure thing, even with a threat meter. Which gives all the more reason to have a threat meter, since right now we're just aiming blindly and hoping we don't screw up.

 

 

i have noticed that healing threat is RIDICULOUS right now.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Meluna

[CecilTellyn]

I'm only a level 23 Guardian so take this with a grain of salt.

 

I haven't really had any problems tanking in this game and this is the first MMO I've ever played with the "Trinity" classes.

 

But what I do find is that I have to be very careful about managing threat. I do have to pay close attention to what is going on around me so that I aggro the right mob at the right time.

 

Generally, I leap into battle, do an AOE which will get all the mobs on me and then - while attacking the main mob - keep an eye on the situation. If the healer starts to pull mobs to him, I either have to taunt or switch targets to keep the situation under control.

 

Sounds hard, but if I'm paying attention (which isn't always the case ), then I can usually keep the situation under control.

 

So yeah, I don't know about higher levels but so far, I feel like I'm doing ok. It's hard, but manageable.

Edited January 17, 2012 by CecilTellyn

[Rast]

I'm only a level 23 Guardian so take this with a grain of salt.

 

Not to sound like a jerk, but sadly that invalidates what you're saying.

 

To those above--I didn't have any threat issues while leveling. I didn't have any threat issues when we started raids and HMs. I had incredible aoe threat. I had incredible single target threat. I have incredible tools. Things were solid.

 

However, now that our dps has caught up to me in gear (I'm in full Rakata/Columi gear, as is our dps now) their ability to destroy my threat is unreal.

 

If you are not at this level of progression/gearing, please do not simply type "learn to play." I am using all of my abilities. I am using all of my tools. I use cryogrenade, neural surge, harpoon, mortar volley, explosive surge, you name it.

 

Again, single target threat is still o.k. However, it's a VERY tight line. If I waste two or three global cooldowns controlling a different mob--say one that just spawned and is running to our healer--it's ridiculously easy for our dps to pull our main burn mob off of me. AoE threat is a huge issue now. As a Vanguard, I have incredible tools. I don't know how a Jedi Guardian copes--force sweep, no Harpoon, no ranged to speak of makes life much rougher for them. Our guild has commented multiple times that they have an even easier time pulling off of our very skilled Guardian tank.

 

This isn't a learn to play issue. This is how SWTOR was designed. I have run every raid, every HM, and the issue is more how dps scales vs. how tank threat scales. I'm very survivable now--my gear has dramatically improved this. However, my ability to hold threat doesn't scale like our dps' ability to pull threat/do damage has.

 

Design issues--and I think some tweaks are needed. This doesn't even factor in the ridiculous number of stuns or threat drops that are in the game. Nothing is as fun as charging into a group of mobs, instantly getting stunned while your CC breaker is on cool down from the stun you just got out of, while watching the mobs break towards your healer to eat him or her. Again, design issues, and I think they need to be addressed.

 

Trolls--please leave. Others--constructive feedback is much appreciated.

 

Rast

[CecilTellyn]

Not to sound like a jerk, but sadly that invalidates what you're saying.

 

 

Then take my advice, take it with a grain of salt and move on *shrug*

Edited January 17, 2012 by CecilTellyn

[Holden_Dissent]

Sounds challenging. Wish I had rolled a tank now.

[ericdjobs]

I will tell you what the problem is. I saw this coming the minute I started to level my powertech (been 50 for awhile now)

 

 

here it is:

 

As a Powertech tank, I noticed that our only increase in threat is a static % modifier of our DPS.

 

As a tank, our gear choices consist solely of defensive stats. People who DPS gear for DPS stats. Defensive stats do NOT increase our dps, DPS stats do. Our threat is a static modifier of our DPS.. see where I'm going here?

 

As the DPS gears up, all of the item budget on their gear is spent on DPS stats, so their DPS (and threat) increases significantly. As a Tank gears up, his DPS stays pretty static save for Aim gains. This is the problem. So, as a tank, we are expected to do 60% of the DPS that a DPS class can do.... that was all fine at teh start of the game... but as the DPS continues to gear up, their DPS continues to increase.. while the tanks DPS stays static.

 

This is only going to get worse.

 

I have been able to mitigate the effects of this somewhat;

 

Here's a trick. GEAR SURGE

I know it sounds counter-productive, but hear me out.. Try to find pieces with def/surge (there's def/surge enhancements).. try to get mastercrafted stuff and use Surge augments.

Surge scales very very well, and as a powertech tank a LOT of our abilities have high crit-chances (From the shield-tech tree)... Surge causes our crits to become much much larger, without having to rely on a crit rating increase to make it effective. Surge will help threat problems immensely, but it's only a band-aid. Eventually, as gear gets even better, DPS will continue to increase; as tank threat stays static.

[teddy_bear]

Honestly I feel your pain. Holding aggro on anymore then 1-2 mobs is an absolute nightmare. It would be nice for them to add some more skills that give AoE's better threat output.

 

For the record i'm a level 50 tank vanguard.

[ChubiMaes]

On my juggernaut I basically accept the fact that I won't hold aoe threat so I focus my efforts on the mobs that are most lethal, elites, champions, etc. Let the dps kill off the normal and strong mobs first, doesn't matter who has aggro on those. In ops there isn't all that much trash, and if it really matters if you lose a mob or 2 theres always CC.

 

AOE taunt = best friend ever.

 

Single target its fine, early in the fight I toss my guard from dps to dps so that I know they won't pull as easily and keep a finger close to my taunt key. Any buffs to threat will make me sad like the 500% threat buff that other game gave out that.... well pretty much ruined the game for me and i quit it shortly after cause I got bored tanking.

[Snichy]

There does seem to be a perception among non-tanks that tanking in this game is very easy. As a result, in PUGs I see alot of dps attack a single target by themselves thinking that they wont get aggro or they can kill it before it kills them, despite me saying to focus fire or cc. Even if I mark and call for cc and to focus on my target, other people think they can just go off and attack a random mob and expect the healer to heal them, the tank to get aggro or that they will kill it quickly but the only person who suffers because of this mentality is the healer to has to try to keep everyone up. Most of the time they are so busy healing a rogue DPS that me as the tank dies resulting in failure.

 

Whilst I am not max level yet, I have noticed like others even within the level 30-40 range that as a vanguard, if I need to collect a stray mob or miss a CD, even a moderately geared dps can pull aggro so it must be even worse at 50.

 

TLDR: tanking is not as easy as you think, if you as dps die its usually your fault and whilst a threat meter would be very handy, usually its down to people (red: dps) not following instructions.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Snichy

[Stejo]

You can't hold aoe aggro in this game right now, period. It's not challenging nor fun, just impossible; accept it for what it is. That said, there aren't really any mobs that can 1, 2 or even 3 shot non-tanks, so it doesn't really matter. Hell, there was a thread somewhere with a dpser tanking hm flashpoints, vids included.

[ChicoTyrell]

i like hows the aoe aggro atm.

 

its not IMPOSIBLE to hold the aggro, just complicated. If you want aoe down the mobs, there need to be a challenge, if you cant make the job, just cc and dps 1 by 1.

 

atm i just run first, use all my aoe skills to gather them up, then aoe taunt, and my rotation again. when im about to lose the aggro, normaly i have my aoe cd again.

[excentric]

Here we can see what the WoW crutch did too people.

If you are DPS and can't control your dps without a threatmeeter you suck.

I can see why tanks might have trouble holding agro when DPS burst all their adrenals, crit modifiers etc. But tanking in this game is so trivial it's down to the DPS. Sometimes the tank too, but in the case mentioned in by OP most def the dps.

Edited January 25, 2012 by excentric

[SinfulEinherjar]

Wall of text inc.

 

I understand what the problem is, as you see it. You're right; it's not an issue with you or the way you play, but some of these suggestions are dangerously close to "easy mode" solutions. And from what I have seen from the developer's community so far, they don't like this kind of solution.

 

A threat meter is completely and utterly unnecessary. You only think it is needed because you've played other games and have been 'spoiled' by the inclusion of threat as visible numbers. There are plenty of 'Trinity' MMOs - both in the past and more current - that have no visible threat at all but are still vastly popular. Personally, I enjoy having threat as an unknown. Not only is it a good way to weed out the players who don't really pay attention to anything except their hotbar and the ground at their feet (i.e., bad players), but it also adds an extra element to gameplay. You think DPS having to choke down on going balls-out limits "fun"? I disagree entirely. Having a soft 'cap' or 'wall' that I am constantly trying to stay below (or pull threat) ADDS to the enjoyability of the game. Otherwise, all day long all I'm doing is pushing the same 5 buttons. Why do you think some games had to add all these stupid and gimmicky "mechanics" to gameplay and bosses to make it fun? Because the game itself is not fun. Adding an undocumented 'threat wall' is a good way to make your DPS pay attention to what's happening. Also, I don't know about you, but as a healer, having more to do than spam single-target heals on the tank is a lot more fun for me. Granted, constant dissolution of threat isn't fantastic, a little bit of unpredictability keeps me on my toes and interested. Otherwise I may as well put a drinker-bird on my heal key and go browse Netflix.

 

Now, what you're saying isn't completely without merit, and the guy above me who mentioned gear-scaling with tanks is also right. You said you have a lot more survivability, yes? Well, maybe you should trade off some of that excess survivability for some DPS stats. Don't forget, your healers are also gearing up, and healing you is becoming easier. I'm sure they can handle a slightly-squishier tank if it means threat is a little stabler. Perhaps you can carry around an extra piece of gear or two, focused more on DPS instead of pure Tank stats, and switch them in when you need a little bit of extra threat generation.

 

What I'm saying is, I think the main problem is not the mechanics or construction of the game and its scaling values - although perhaps the 'wall' could be raised a little, by your account - but the way you are thinking of the game. Try evolving. You're not playing the game wrong, but maybe you can adapt your thinking about it. Have DPS conscious of their actions and the world around them. Maybe they should hold off on their rotation for a few seconds (GASP! No!!! He didn't suggest...!!!!) when a new add spawns. Maybe they should use their threat drop every cooldown, not only when they've pulled aggro. Maybe they should take breaks from spamming their buttons to keep a better eye on what else is going on in the fight. My point is, holding threat no matter what is not and should not be your job. Your healers and DPS should be working at that, too.

 

As an alternative, maybe you should consider bringing an off-tank specced and geared halfway between DPS and survivability in order to pick up loose mobs and still be able to hold them for a while - either to bring them to you or to tank it until it can be killed.

 

Lastly, if the problem is lack of ranged or AoE taunting tools, there is a very easy, very obvious solution. Remember 5 sunders? Time was, DPS didn't go ape-poop crazy the second mobs aggrod the tank. There is nothing wrong with waiting a few seconds while your tank picks up the encounter group. But, I guess that would be asking people to actually NOT spam their buttons at every possible moment, and that would be asking too much, right?

 

Those are my seven cents. Hope it helps.

Edited January 25, 2012 by SinfulEinherjar

[Stejo]

i like hows the aoe aggro atm.

 

its not IMPOSIBLE to hold the aggro, just complicated. If you want aoe down the mobs, there need to be a challenge, if you cant make the job, just cc and dps 1 by 1.

 

atm i just run first, use all my aoe skills to gather them up, then aoe taunt, and my rotation again. when im about to lose the aggro, normaly i have my aoe cd again.

 

First off, you obviously play a BH/Trooper seeing as you refer to "all your aoe skills". If you played any other tanking class you wouldn't be talking plural. Secondly, your idea of complicated aoe tanking is throwing a bunch of aoe abilities and then doing a mass taunt? Third and more important, imagine for a second that you actually have to walk up to a mob to hit it, you can't tank from range. And then try and think about how many pulls actually have more than 2 mobs within 5 meters of each other.

[navarh]

Having a soft 'cap' or 'wall' that I am constantly trying to stay below (or pull threat) ADDS to the enjoyability of the game.

…you at 30% of actual tank threat but have no idea about this and you tryig to "stay below"

how this "add to enjoyability"?

 

and second question, how threat meter remove your soft 'cap' or 'wall' and free you from "constantly trying to stay below"?

 

make your DPS pay attention

if boss hit you = you pull agro and if not you don't pull agro that's how you "pay attention" here?

at that_game if you don't pay attention here catch your's 250k hit on non-tank player hp 160-180k

ooooops u die

Edited January 25, 2012 by navarh

[SinfulEinherjar]

…you at 30% of actual tank threat but have no idea about this and you tryig to "stay below"

how this "add to enjoyability"?

It adds by forcing me to learn my class backwards and forwards. Believe it or not, it is possible to learn how to do something without it being handed to you or written down somewhere. After enough time, I'll be able to 'feel' the threat wall, and after a particularly hard crit, or a nice string of interlaced cooldowns/procs, I'll take a breather, check to make sure I'm not standing in fire, type out a whisper, whatever.

Doing these things all breaks up the constant need for mashing your rotation keys the millisecond they pop up. Not only does this make things a little more relaxed, but without a DPS meter and/or combat log (I don't want this in, either) there's no pressure to be "on top", which makes taking a short break that much more acceptable. If the mob dies, who cares who is your top DPS? And if your answer is "me!" then you are exactly the type of player I do not enjoy playing with, and I have no sympathy for your whims not being met

 

second question, how threat meter remove your soft 'cap' or 'wall' and free you from "constantly trying to stay below"?

It doesn't. That's not the intention. The intention is that the absence of determined threat numbers makes it more difficult (i.e., more challenging) to the players.

To some of us, challenge = fun.