Operatives: Most broken garbage balance ever.

[Eeri]

I have no problems killing ops. Just learn to play your path they die easy enough..then again i guess i do have heals lmao. CC and stun abilitys are always your best friend when fighting them. The person getting 4 on 1 well its just destiny for you to lose i suppose...But yeah pvp isn't even close to being fair in these matches. Cause of gear and skills they should do away with it all together and make them run around planets to get their medals killing people that way i'm sure your entire nation will be their to help you if you bring them down cause it would be making your pvp gear much harder to get and you would see very few people in it.

To late to do this now anyway cause most would just camp the quest area's.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Eeri

[zqsd]

That being said, have you caught an Operative/Scoundrel in the out in the open and won?

 

...just curious...because you're saying you've beaten a class that had an UNSTOPPABLE/INSURMOUNTABLE ADVANTAGE. If this is the case, well, by the logic of people in this thread...

 

 

...you need a HUGE NERF because you're OP.

 

Rofl, every post you make is so biaised, it's hilarious.

 

I completely roflstomp operative if i get the opener on them, this doesen"t mean they are balanced.

 

OPness has nothing to do with being unkillable, or 1v1, or whatever you try to argue.

 

The problem is actually taking 70% hp of a target while it can do nothing to prevent it. It's totally retarded, takes absolutely no skill and needs to go.

 

 

Fact is:

 

With 500+ expertise, you still drop to 30-40% hp during the knockdown (2s) vs average operative if you don't have your trinket up. This damage is completely unavoidable, no matter what you do.

You can be the best pgm in the world you will still lose more than half your life in 2s by any keyboard turner playing a decently geared operative.

There is nothing to argue, nothing to defend, this simple fact is enough to prove imbalance and anyone stating this is normal behavior has absolutely no idea what a good gameplay and a good balance class are.

[Amp_]

That being said, have you caught an Operative/Scoundrel in the out in the open and won?

 

...just curious...because you're saying you've beaten a class that had an UNSTOPPABLE/INSURMOUNTABLE ADVANTAGE. If this is the case, well, by the logic of people in this thread...

 

 

...you need a HUGE NERF because you're OP.

 

The problem is it's only survivable if you have every tool in the kit available at the time and that's just for my particular class and build. The chances of having every cooldown up is very slim the warzone environment. I have to blow my wad so to speak just to have the chance at coming out on top.

 

Don't get me wrong. It's good they're addressing the consumables issue first and creating the 50 only bracket before they go changing classes, but that doesn't mean there's not a possible issue of balancing to work out still. It's definitely worth looking into after we finally get this next patch.

 

 

So....

 

You have been jumped by an operative/scoundrel and .... you somehow managed to live to tell the tale?? How can this be?? It's hard to concentrate with all the shrieking going on in this thread, and I think you have just BLOWN MY MIND, MAN.

 

Everyone knows that they are so OP that no one could ever survive the opener from a level 50 scoundrel. I mean, I have survived, too.....but I'm only in my 30s and a healer, so what I do is survive and escape. But you.....You survived and won. I guess, using the logic apparent in this thread, that someone ought to nerf you, eh?

 

Read above. What I have to do to survive is under perfect conditions and in no way is sustainable.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Amp_

[Eeri]

Make sure sheild is up shock stun them for 6 secs then if they even try to use their main ability simple enough since it has a long enough cast time wait for it to get half way then diable it with your abilty stop. By the time it comes up again rinse and repeat don't forget your slows incase they try to run away healers cause your gonna need it they always run unless the dots kill them Only good OP is a dead one. And if your a Sorc crying you should just reroll cause you can't play since you died to a OP....

[Iridor]

I need to take more screenshots. Had a match the other day where I (as a level 40 focus-spec guardian) sat on a level 50 ops (w/ biochem stims) every time I saw him, and held him to 0 (that's right, zero) kills. Between Taunt, Guard, and my cc, he never got enough snap damage to kill. And the couple of times he tried to open on me, I was fine... either I cc broke and blew him up, or I just sat in it and got heals because I explained to my team before the round started that I'd be pvp tanking, and after you save a healer's life a time or two they tend to start looking for your health bar.

 

Honestly I felt pretty bad for the guy... ops have only one trick, and guardian just wrecks it if the guardian is actually paying attention.

[relkar]

Yeah as a 50 sorc, I've had Ops and their republic counterparts knock me down and slaughter me before I can stand up. If we're questioning something being out of balance, there's no question. A mechanic of a class in PvP that allows for killing someone outright with nothing that player can do to survive is not balanced. There's all these lovely arguements, "oh break cc" or "only if he gets the jump on you" but that's a vassal argument woodhouse, stealth by its very nature is sneaky, and if you can't see the unstoppable killing machine coming, how exactly do you prevent it? Also, considering there is no diminishing return on stuns or cc, and everyone has 1 cc break with a fairly long cooldown (when considered to the amount of ways you can be cc'd) it's not really a valid option. You broke the knock down cc, but that's okay, they've got 2 or 3 other stuns they can hit you with.

 

So yeah, thread starter guy is right, this needs a fixin', no, you defenders of the operative/smuggler you're not right, go to your room.

 

[belialle]

A mechanic of a class in PvP that allows for killing someone outright with nothing that player can do to survive is not balanced.

I agree. However, I believe that the trouble is the way they can stack buffs right now, rather than the class itself.....and that is being addressed in the next patch.

 

Also, I think this thread is full of liars. I find it very hard to believe that I can survive an opener from a level 50 scoundrel as a healer in my 30s.....but the OP is a 50 in PvP gear who can't figure out how to get out of the starting gate? Come the **** on. OP is either a huge liar or a terrible player. In either case, the problem is not the class he was confronted with.

 

Edited January 17, 2012 by belialle

[mastercosby]

Read above. What I have to do to survive is under perfect conditions and in no way is sustainable.

 

What an OP has to do to kill someone before they can "fight back" is under perfect conditions: Have expertise buff, adrenal buff, stims, and on top of that, have everything crit. Most of the time this happens against undergeared or lower level players. Against someone of equal gear/skill, you will only get someone below 50% in 1 stun probably less than 20% of the time. If the OP doesn't get you below 50% in his opener chances are hes going to lose 1v1. I don't see how someone can see this as unbalanced.

Edited January 17, 2012 by mastercosby

[kyokot]

Actually, sages and sorcs would be the runner up for most overpowered class after operative.

 

Yea they are being shadowed by the god mode of Operative atm.

[Amp_]

What an OP has to do to kill someone before they can "fight back" is under perfect conditions: Have expertise buff, adrenal buff, stims, and on top of that, have everything crit. Most of the time this happens against undergeared or lower level players. Against someone of equal gear/skill, you will only get someone below 50% in 1 stun probably less than 20% of the time. If the OP doesn't get you below 50% in his opener chances are hes going to lose 1v1. I don't see how someone can see this as unbalanced.

 

If you read the entire post I said it's good they're addressing the buff stacking and a 50 bracket before they go changing the class and we will have to wait to see what the results are.

 

That being said, I'm surprised you don't even consider that to be unbalanced because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be getting changed in the first place. The current state is definitely not WAI.

[mastercosby]

If you read the entire post I said it's good they're addressing the buff stacking and a 50 bracket before they go changing the class and we will have to wait to see what the results are.

 

That being said, I'm surprised you don't even consider that to be unbalanced because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be getting changed in the first place. The current state is definitely not WAI.

 

Well they way you worded that last part made it seem like you have to do that EVERY time to survive an OPs burst which is definitely not that case, it's only when everything goes in his favor that you need to do everything to survive. However, I do agree with everything else you said and wasn't trying to say that the way buff stacking currently works isn't unbalanced. Sorry, I wasn't very clear on that issue.

Edited January 17, 2012 by mastercosby

[big_aug]

This is how you kill operatives:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/big_aug/b/305581836

 

3:15 and 5:15

 

Although I do die the second time because I get triple teamed. Without help, I would have killed him.

[sunsu]

How can you ask for balance when you have no clue on how mitigation works, you dont know what kind of damage youre taking and you no clue of the gear level of the person thats fighting you. You see some numbers fly up on your screen and then you die, then come here and say a class is op, you know how retarded you and the people do that sound? Edited January 17, 2012 by sunsu

[Dirtydurst]

I'll give this issue some context:

I'm a lvl 50 Jedi Shadow and I'm only missing 3 pieces of champ gear ( sitting at about 9.7% expertise) and just under 15K HP unbuffed.

 

If the Operative doesn't crit, I typically start the fight at 35-40% HP. If he does crit on a couple of the abilities I start the fight at about 25-30% HP.

 

Yes, I realize I can blow my CC breaker and attempt to kite them or just vanish out and run away.

 

But this is what most of you essentially are you saying: Shadows and most other classes should be a free kill to an operative when their CC breaker is on CD. If you're ok with that design then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with how Bioware designed the class, but I at least want people to understand what they're saying and promoting.

 

Shadows/Assassins already struggle against skilled tanks and Mauraders, should we be a free kill for operatives?

[ArmoredJuneBug]

BH/Troopers are generally worse off against Operatives/Scoundrels, in your experience?

Armor is still effective against Kinetic damage, it's just that tanks get no use out of Defense and Shielding/Absorption and a 50% armor debuff means the armor advantage is significantly lessened.

 

Defensively then yes, classes with high armor, Defense and shields will see most of those advantages vanish against an Operative/Scoundrel.

 

I can't really speak for the other tools, as I haven't played either a Trooper or Bounty Hunter to high enough level to get a good feel of their toolset.

[Sookster]

nm misread the post Edited January 17, 2012 by Sookster

[SpaceJ]

I know posting here is futile, because it's fairly obvious people are split into two camps and aren't going to move themselves over from one into the other no matter what evidence or thoughts are given.

 

I've posted this into each thread where people are begging for a nerf to the Operative class, and really no one seems to care about slotting their skills appropriately for PvP.

 

I say this because several classes have access to an anti-stealth ability that reveals Operatives at further distances. Usually in time to fire off some kind of AoE that prohibits the use of any openers the operative has at their disposal. I'm guessing no one has this ability slotted, since it's only useful in PvP, but if you're really 'hardcore' at PvP this seems like an ability you would REALLY want to have. I know, I know, it's totally unfair that one ability negates an entire class but that's the way BioWare has designed it. Know how many Operatives I've killed on my Merc. Pyrotech while they were trying to sneak a knife into my back? (Hint: All of the time, outside of PvP Champion Gear. I can't touch anyone with that stuff.)

 

Now, I know what you're thinking. "But Space, I don't want to slot a useless ability just for one class!" Well, my friends, that's ok because I'm here to tell you it isn't only for one class! Yes, that's right, it also works on Assassins! Also, I'd say two points to negate an entire character class that half the forums are crying about is a good spend personally.

 

No matter how much you hate working with your team, it's required if you want to win. If the other team is made up of nothing except burst DPS, I don't know what you can do. That's the power of pre-made grouping. The same would be true of an all Mercenary team, or anything else that's stacked.

 

With everyone crying 'nerf', of course more people are going to roll the class. Even if it isn't OP. You're creating the hype with your crying, which perversely is increasing the population of a class that's only powerful if your team doesn't care who's getting picked off. Step up to the plate and be your teams 'stealth detector' and enjoy the face rolling you'll create. It is the anti-operative and will, once again, negate everything an operative can do to you. Everything.

 

As a parting question after you guys shed a thousand tears about the Operative and guilt BioWare into making the Operative unplayable in PvP, who will you cry about needing a nerf next? Because it's a never-ending cycle with you whiners. I'm guessing Consulars/Sorc's. After that, what, maybe Powertech? Then it won't be fair that the Jugg. gets a bubble. Then you'll need to take away force speed from Assassins. I mean, why should we give anyone time to learn how to play the game? Lets keep this a moving target so no one has a chance to judge for themselves.

 

They should tone down the CC's on CC classes, remove tanking abilities from tank classes, shorten the duration on speed boosts on squishy classes, up the CD to 3 minutes on closers for DPS classes, and give everyone light armor. After we've nerfed the primary roll of every class, then it will be 'fair' and 'fun'. Welcome, Comrade, to Soviet PvP.

 

While we're on the subject, why isn't everyone using BioChem in PvP? I only ask because it's PvP, and I can't see your armor crafter being terribly useful in a PvP zone, what with champion armor and all. So...yeah. Don't complain when the other person is PvP spec. and you're on your PvE healer. If this describes you, please, go away. You aren't PvP and have no business ever going into a zone with 'pros' and 'l33ts', it will never be balanced to you. Ever. In the history of the world.

 

/sarcasm

 

(P.S. Please keep your examples of Full-PvP Champion Set Operatives killing people out of this, since every class is unstoppable with those sets if you don't have them yourself. Especially with stacking buffs/Health Packs. Even if every attack an operative did delt 5k damage, which they don't, it would take four shots to kill a guy with 20k HP. You NEED an operative with full champ gear to offset that, with those HP they will faceroll your entire team.)

[Karandor]

I'll give this issue some context:

I'm a lvl 50 Jedi Shadow and I'm only missing 3 pieces of champ gear ( sitting at about 9.7% expertise) and just under 15K HP unbuffed.

 

If the Operative doesn't crit, I typically start the fight at 35-40% HP. If he does crit on a couple of the abilities I start the fight at about 25-30% HP.

 

Yes, I realize I can blow my CC breaker and attempt to kite them or just vanish out and run away.

 

But this is what most of you essentially are you saying: Shadows and most other classes should be a free kill to an operative when their CC breaker is on CD. If you're ok with that design then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with how Bioware designed the class, but I at least want people to understand what they're saying and promoting.

 

Shadows/Assassins already struggle against skilled tanks and Mauraders, should we be a free kill for operatives?

 

Force shroud does wonders against them, you should use it immediately after CC break and he`ll waste some CDs on it and you can win.

 

 

They're OP for sure (the opener does too much damage, that's the only problem) but you can still deal with them with good play. Force shroud is AMAZING against them and if you shroud (to remove DoTs) and then cloak you can then open up on him and turn the tables.

 

Many assassins have no idea how good shroud is and how to properly use it. When you stun someone, pop it just as the stun is about to wear off and the enemy will waste all their CC on you much of the time while you are immune.

[MonsAlpha]

TLDR :: lowbie getting ***** by 50 operative because he runs off the same ledge over and over like a lemming without any teammates, ect

 

Stop with the L2P ****, you're not helping anyone and quite frankly you sound like an arrogant ***** when you say that. I'm level 50 in ALL battlemaster gear and I get screwed in under 7 seconds by Operatives. Trust me, I know how to play, that's not the issue. The issue is with CD's and activation timers, or lack thereof on the Operative class. I've got a level 36 Operative I use as a healer so, again, I know what I'm talking about, not just saying things that I read.

[Lykurgus]

How can you ask for balance when you have no clue on how mitigation works, you dont know what kind of damage youre taking and you no clue of the gear level of the person thats fighting you. You see some numbers fly up on your screen and then you die, then come here and say a class is op, you know how retarded you and the people do that sound?

 

This post sums up a huge portion of the QQ spread all over this board.

 

If you I could give you a cookie Sir, I would.

[BDutch]

I'll give this issue some context:

I'm a lvl 50 Jedi Shadow and I'm only missing 3 pieces of champ gear ( sitting at about 9.7% expertise) and just under 15K HP unbuffed.

 

If the Operative doesn't crit, I typically start the fight at 35-40% HP. If he does crit on a couple of the abilities I start the fight at about 25-30% HP.

 

Yes, I realize I can blow my CC breaker and attempt to kite them or just vanish out and run away.

 

But this is what most of you essentially are you saying: Shadows and most other classes should be a free kill to an operative when their CC breaker is on CD. If you're ok with that design then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with how Bioware designed the class, but I at least want people to understand what they're saying and promoting.

 

Shadows/Assassins already struggle against skilled tanks and Mauraders, should we be a free kill for operatives?

 

So you'd feel better if you just didn't lose quite as badly when a stealth class opened on your stealth class? If you have your CC breaker then you can fight back... if you don't have your CC breaker then you have 25% health to immune/vanish... if you don't have either of these then you're going to die even if you have 70% health after the opener.

[shdwklown]

I know posting here is futile...<snip>

 

You sir, are a genius. +100 internets to you.

 

When people cry about balance I respond with something I read in some other game forum; Rock: Nerf Paper, scissors are fine.

[Flowerslayer]

communicate with your teammates the next time and get someone to help you out. if possible, id have voted to kick you for inactivity if you just sat there letting someone dominate you the entire game.

[Dirtydurst]

if you don't have your CC breaker then you have 25% health to immune/vanish... if you don't have either of these then you're going to die even if you have 70% health after the opener.

 

How can you actually believe this? lol, wow.

[BDutch]

How can you actually believe this? lol, wow.

 

Could you elaborate? If you have two stealth classes, one gets the opener, and the other doesn't have CD's, then how are you supposed to turn that fight around with any significant HP disadvantage?

Edited January 17, 2012 by BDutch