SnakeAes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) I oppose the dungeon finder system unless it's restricted to your server only. The nice thing about having no interaction with other servers is that people's reputation on their own server actually means something. With a dungeon finder there is nothing to reasonably prevent a person from being obnoxious, needing on things they don't actually need, and then quitting after. The likelihood you'd see that person again in a cross-server LFG is pretty slim. However, in a server you can actually spread the word (good or bad). Maybe someone is an amazing tank or an incredible healer. They deserve the recognition for their effort. Or, on the other end of the spectrum, maybe someone is a troll who won't listen to instructions, rolls Need on everything, and flames people. Other players deserve to know, so that they can avoid this player. The argument that people don't want to wait around staring at a wall in the Fleet while waiting for people to respond is just ridiculous. It's as if those people can't tolerate doing something while waiting for something else. Run Crew Skills, warzones, or actually help people in chat who have questions. Here's the thing -- yes, it always starts slow. But if you're a respectful, honest player who makes running dungeons a fun experience for other players, eventually they WILL start to remember you. Add people to your friends lists. Contact them. Gradually, you'll find that manual dungeon finding gets easier. People have gotten so spoiled by other recent MMOs that they've forgotten how to do it the old-fashioned way. Many changes in games are improvements; in terms of the social experience, a dungeon finder is not. Edited January 25, 2012 by SnakeAes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 lfd tool gives an incentive to not forming social ties, because you get more groups, exp, lootz faster if you just grind dungeons back to back. You mentioned something that I highlighted ealier. Dungeons have changed for the worse over the years, forming complex social ties over content that is faceroll doesn't work. They've just become another gear on the thread mill of gaming which not everyone has equal access do it. Social ties are most strongly built imo when people work towards a common goal, having a system that requires you to farm dungeons endlessly for drops doesn't build a very strong community cause people don't want to be there in the first place. The only viable solution to that is to make it go faster and less of a pain, thus why the X-LFD came out. If I had to spend 3-4 mudane hours a night several times a week to progress my character for /raiding a night I would quit. However if they made the process easier and less painless I can justify it as a time sink. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You mentioned something that I highlighted ealier. Dungeons have changed for the worse over the years, forming complex social ties over content that is faceroll doesn't work. They've just become another gear on the thread mill of gaming which not everyone has equal access do it. Social ties are most strongly built imo when people work towards a common goal, having a system that requires you to farm dungeons endlessly for drops doesn't build a very strong community cause people don't want to be there in the first place. The only viable solution to that is to make it go faster and less of a pain, thus why the X-LFD came out. If I had to spend 3-4 mudane hours a night several times a week to progress my character for /raiding a night I would quit. However if they made the process easier and less painless I can justify it as a time sink. My 2 cents. Would you be opposed to buffing the drop rate of loot for server based groups to make up for this disparity in time sync? Just curious if this is more frustration because you are expected to run the dungeons a ton of times to get the gear and have to find a group each time, or because you want to see the story of the dungeon and have issues finding a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Gonna just bump my own post here because I just love how concise this reply was to utterly crush anti-LFD arguments. People don't opt to use LFD because it's LESS satisfying for them than putting together groups. People using it much more than any other method, thus making the other methods obsolete wouldn't be possible if it weren't inherently better. If x-server was so bad it would have failed and people would have went back to putting their own groups together. The very fact that cross server has continued to exist is a testament to how much better it is. In addition, LFD, both intra and cross, has grown outside of popular WoW to reach across other games only be be accepted by those communities as a great tool. The anti-LFD stance is the losing minority, and this CAN be quantified. EQ2, DCUO, Rift, WoW, all have LFD and NONE of them suffered major subscriber loss or community backlash because of it. In EQ2 the devs got raked over the coals because they weren't heavy handed enough with it, they made it very 'lite' and basic and it failed miserably and the players DEMANDED equipment checks, cross server, and better implementation of quick travel. (I speak of EQ2 the most because that is where I 'came from' even though I still play it.) Grouping tools have been through a crucible of over a decade of video game development across many developers. The useless and bloated methods have been burned away to show that the best method to date is a LFD/PvE queuing system. Edited January 25, 2012 by Neiloch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Would you be opposed to buffing the drop rate of loot for server based groups to make up for this disparity in time sync? Just curious if this is more frustration because you are expected to run the dungeons a ton of times to get the gear and have to find a group each time, or because you want to see the story of the dungeon and have issues finding a group. Does it matter? Having to spend time twiddling thumbs to find a group for w/e reason is unacceptable. If someone wants a group they should be able to get one as fast as possible. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Does it matter? Having to spend time twiddling thumbs to find a group for w/e reason is unacceptable. If someone wants a group they should be able to get one as fast as possible. Period. Assuming that there is an option of a dungeon finder that drops loot slower and a self server pre formed that drops loot faster to make up for the fact that there is effort in putting a group together would you find this acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I oppose the dungeon finder system unless it's restricted to your server only. I think that's a fair compromise at first. Least amount of shock to the system and we can see if it needs further improvement. The nice thing about having no interaction with other servers is that people's reputation on their own server actually means something. With a dungeon finder there is nothing to reasonably prevent a person from being obnoxious, needing on things they don't actually need, and then quitting after. The likelihood you'd see that person again in a cross-server LFG is pretty slim. I don't think the target demographic of gamers these days care as much about reputation as us old timers. However, in a server you can actually spread the word (good or bad). Maybe someone is an amazing tank or an incredible healer. They deserve the recognition for their effort. Or, on the other end of the spectrum, maybe someone is a troll who won't listen to instructions, rolls Need on everything, and flames people. Other players deserve to know, so that they can avoid this player. Why do they deserve recognition? The argument that people don't want to wait around staring at a wall in the Fleet while waiting for people to respond is just ridiculous. It's as if those people can't tolerate doing something while waiting for something else. Run Crew Skills, warzones, or actually help people in chat who have questions. Straw man. You've ignored the reasons why people don't wish to wait and given busy work that they already don't want to do to past the time. Here's the thing -- yes, it always starts slow. But if you're a respectful, honest player who makes running dungeons a fun experience for other players, eventually they WILL start to remember you. Add people to your friends lists. Contact them. Gradually, you'll find that manual dungeon finding gets easier. That's a catch 22. The only way I can get access to dungeons is to run them to the pont of absurdism so people will remember so i can continue to run them? How many dungeons do people run in this game? I don't plan on spending every night running the same dungeons, I'll move on if that is the case here. People have gotten so spoiled by other recent MMOs that they've forgotten how to do it the old-fashioned way. Many changes in games are improvements; in terms of the social experience, a dungeon finder is not. By your own admission you say it's spoiling gamers which means it's positive and good but then you say it's bad. My social experiences went up 10 fold with x-LFD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Southpark WoW episode "Mommmmmmmmmmmmmm, HOTPOCKETS!!!!!!!!" Just for comic relief, here's a character I made in City of Heroes a while back (read the silly description in the info window on the left.) http://s14.postimage.org/fz50d4w4h/screenshot_120125_13_04_03.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Would you be opposed to buffing the drop rate of loot for server based groups to make up for this disparity in time sync? Just curious if this is more frustration because you are expected to run the dungeons a ton of times to get the gear and have to find a group each time, or because you want to see the story of the dungeon and have issues finding a group. Personally I'd like not to farm dungeons 20 times a piece every content cycle. Loot changes are fine, I'll support anything that helps as many people win on this issue. I like the story of the dungeon, but only the first few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitewolfe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 cross server lfd tools allow me to be more social. Regardless if i will ever see them again it allows me to play the game with more real people. Its the anti lfd crowd that are the anti social ones. They put a requirement of single server and must be able to friend them on their social activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Personally I'd like not to farm dungeons 20 times a piece every content cycle. Loot changes are fine, I'll support anything that helps as many people win on this issue. I like the story of the dungeon, but only the first few times. I don't like running them 20 times per content cycle either (and you can go in pvp gear to ops right now) but in the game design they have a purpose, the hard mode content is designed as a time sync. If you make it so people can run through them faster and more consistently that means you need to reduce the rate of drops to create the same period of time sync. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't like running them 20 times per content cycle either (and you can go in pvp gear to ops right now) but in the game design they have a purpose, the hard mode content is designed as a time sync. If you make it so people can run through them faster and more consistently that means you need to reduce the rate of drops to create the same period of time sync. I'm fine with the notion of a time sync and lowering loot drops. I don't know if you are familar with WoW but I used to farm mounts in WoW with a 1% drops. There was one mount I wanted in particular, the Raven Lord. Only issue was it was a class only activation event with a 1% drop rate on a once a day timer. So essentially you had to spam for a druid and either befriend them or pay them off every time. I don't mind RNG but I did mind sitting around waiting for a druid, especially when I could only do it once per day and had limited time to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevareen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Or at least global LFG chat, that u could join in when your looking for a group. But WoW got it right, thats the perfect mechanism/tool they made for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Assuming that there is an option of a dungeon finder that drops loot slower and a self server pre formed that drops loot faster to make up for the fact that there is effort in putting a group together would you find this acceptable? No... it's not about the loot, it's about being bored as hell with having my limited time wasted while I wait an hour to get a team (maybe). Gear or not, the ultimate reason i play a game is to have fun, and it's not fun to sit and stare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Assuming that there is an option of a dungeon finder that drops loot slower and a self server pre formed that drops loot faster to make up for the fact that there is effort in putting a group together would you find this acceptable? No. Loot drop rate discriminating against how groups are made would be bad and more than likely overturned later on. Not only that, people could just abuse this system. It would actually make it so people who have more time to spend on the game go even faster than they already do now through content creating an even larger gap between people with lots of free time and those that don't. Bad idea. If anything, people that can't guarantee static groups when they log on and would have to use a LFD should have some sort of loot drop bonus so they can have a chance in hell to keep up with the full timers. But then the full timers could just use the system too, loot drops are back on a even playing field and we are back where we were before, just now loot drops way faster for everyone. Edited January 25, 2012 by Neiloch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbral Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) What would make a real explanation of why LFD is bad, I mean they give you examples of how it would make the game less enjoyable to them, which is the exact same reasoning you use to defend that LFD is needed, you claim it increases enjoyment.The thing is, no one is able to substantiate why it would make the game bad for them. It's all "I believe ....", and "I think ...", and "This one time? In this one game?....", etc etc. Whereas the people for a cross-server LFD tool have shown over and over clear evidence that 1. No communities in any game with a cross server LFD tool have been destroyed. 2. That cross server LFD tools have saved on the brink of oblivion servers in some games, and entire on the brink of oblivion games. 3. That after cross-server LFD tools were implemented in different games it allowed players to actually experience the game world more, as opposed to spending inordinate amounts of time in one spot spamming chat channels with a LFG message. 4. That not only does it benefit a server community because players are out in the game world more, and thus available to socialize more, it also benefits the entire game's community by bringing players from all the servers closer together and interacting more. Game issues and the like can actually be discussed by players, in game, from different perspectives. 5. That the belief that there is some kind of greater accountability with a server only system is a complete myth. There is no accountability beyond getting put on ignore that works. It never has, and it never will. Blacklists and the like are far far too easily abused, and Bioware encouraging that kind of activity makes them open to being liable for complicity in harassment allegations. 6. That adding a cross server LFD tool does not preclude making content easier. In truth, it actually precludes content becoming more challenging because it allows for players to experience group content much more frequently (practice practice practice). Making those players better. A larger pool of better players allows designers to flex their design muscles more. 7. That those that wouldn't want to use a cross-server LFD tool shouldn't have to use it. There should be a server only option available. I could go on if need be. Edited January 25, 2012 by Umbral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No. Loot drop rate discriminating against how groups are made would be bad and more than likely overturned later on. Not only that, people could just abuse this system. It would actually make it so people who have more time to spend on the game go even faster than they already do now through content creating an even larger gap between people with ltos of free time and those that don't. Bad idea. But this doesn't doesn't change the gap of people with lots of free time and those that don't because they can always run the dungeon more times than you can. All this does create a counter for the incentive you make by allowing people to spam the dungeons in the dungeon finder. If the loot drops remained the same for people as they currently are and were dropped for the dungeon finder group, say idk by 8 times since it takes about 4 hours to make a group, that would mean that people in the dungeon finder are still getting loot at the same rate as before and arn't bored right? As it stands there was loot discrimination in wow's dungeon finder because it allowed you to get around the lockout, and provided you with less time sync, and a buff to your stats, making it easier for you to run content you wouldn't normally be able to. To me it sounds like you want a dungeon finder to provide you with an advantage, not people it will increase your fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkittles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sheesh! I go away for a few hours for sleep and the thread explodes! And nice job Touch and Aeon for turning a troll into an actual contributor. I've got your "facts" right here, buddy! lol And I actually like to farm instances, such as for valor points in WoW (or whatever the points-for-gear were called). Which a nice cross-server LFD tool allowed me to do. Anecdotal, anecdotal, anecdotal facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 But this doesn't doesn't change the gap of people with lots of free time and those that don't because they can always run the dungeon more times than you can. Here's the difference between me and you: Other people can play however they want, if they play more, fine, I don't care... as long as I'm also able to play in the time I have. I'm not looking to close any gaps or change anyone else's experiences, I'm just wanting to get my chance to participate at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sheesh! I go away for a few hours for sleep and the thread explodes! And nice job Touch and Aeon for turning a troll into an actual contributor. I've got your "facts" right here, buddy! lol And I actually like to farm instances, such as for valor points in WoW (or whatever the points-for-gear were called). Which a nice cross-server LFD tool allowed me to do. Anecdotal, anecdotal, anecdotal facts. Welcome back to the farm Blue I'm doing a gaming session but i keep dropping in wondering when this thread is going to cap again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The thing is, no one is able to substantiate why it would make the game bad for them. It's all "I believe ....", and "I think ...", and "This one time? In this one game?....", etc etc. Whereas the people for a LFD tool have shown over and over clear evidence that 1. No communities in any game with a cross server LFD tool have been destroyed. This is opinion just like people saying it was destroyed is opinion I don't think either of these is a good response with nothing more than personal experience to back it up 2. That cross server LFD tools have saved on the brink of oblivion servers in some games, and entire on the brink of oblivion games. Again how do you prove that it saved servers, I always played on a low pop server in wow I don't think it was dying before LFD became available, in fact we had more high level raiding guilds in BC than in wrath or cata. 3. That after cross-server LFD tools were implemented in different games it allowed players to actually experience the game world more, as opposed to spending inordinate amounts of time in one spot spamming chat channels with a LFG message. You mean dumbed down content right? I don't think any mmo has released anything dealing with how the dungeon finder allowed more people to see dungeons or the % of people who had seen dungeons. 4. That not only does it benefit a server community because players are out in the game world more, and thus available to socialize more, it also benefits the entire game's community by bringing players from all the servers closer together and interacting more. Game issues and the like can actually be discussed by players, in game, from different perspectives. And people bring up that all people in wow do is sit in the city, so it doesn't sound like it gets you out in the world more, again this is opinion. 5. That the belief that there is some kind of greater accountability with a server only system is a complete myth. There is no accountability beyond getting put on ignore that works. It never has, and it never will. Blacklists and the like are far far too easily abused, and Bioware encouraging that kind of activity makes them open to being liable for complicity in harassment allegations. I can't really say much about this but saying that their argument is bad doesn't mean your argument is good. 6. That adding a cross server LFD tool does not preclude making content easier. In truth, it actually precludes content becoming more challenging because it allows for players to experience group content much more frequently (practice practice practice). Making those players better. A larger pool of better players allows designers to flex their design muscles more. All blizzard does is nerf content, they slowly nerf it so that the more casual people can enjoy it. Blizzard made tons of nerfs to their heroic dungeons in the first month of cata being out. 7. That those that wouldn't want to use a cross-server LFD tool shouldn't have to. There should be a server only option available. I could go on if need be. I agree with this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Here's the difference between me and you: Other people can play however they want, if they play more, fine, I don't care... as long as I'm also able to play in the time I have. I'm not looking to close any gaps or change anyone else's experiences, I'm just wanting to get my chance to participate at all. Actually my view is that there shouldn't be an incentive to play one way or another, and how wow has implemented the dungeon finder is definitely an incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neiloch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Actually my view is that there shouldn't be an incentive to play one way or another, and how wow has implemented the dungeon finder is definitely an incentive. So you're are assuming we want a 1:1 WoW DF, which would be a bad assumption to make. To me it sounds like you want a dungeon finder to provide you with an advantage, not people it will increase your fun. Explain to me how it's an advantage when EVERYONE can use it. Opposed to the current 'system' which can not be fully utilized by everyone because of various reasons. Right now people with much more free time have an advantage. At the very least a DF would start closing the gap, which is better than current situation. Some sort of loot discrimination on how a group is made would require another system that would need 'balance' by the developers. And like I said, people who managed to get static groups together would fly through content even faster than they do now while people who need to use a DF would only go from little to nothing to slightly more than they had. Thus, a bigger gap than there is now. Edited January 25, 2012 by Neiloch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Again how do you prove that it saved servers, I always played on a low pop server in wow I don't think it was dying before LFD became available, in fact we had more high level raiding guilds in BC than in wrath or cata. This is kind of a neat point and my response is probably going to go completely off topic, but I would argue that a decrease in raiding guilds in Wrath was more likely due to the raiding content itself becoming more accessible than it was due to any influence the LFD might have had. Wrath saw the rise of GoldDKP runs and pugs on a massive scale attempting, and beating, the normal mode content. I think that, more than any other thing caused a breakdown in many raiding guilds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So you're are assuming we want a 1:1 WoW DF, which would be a bad assumption to make. Explain to me how it's an advantage when EVERYONE can use it. Opposed to the current 'system' which can not be fully utilized by everyone because of various reasons. Right now people with much more free time have an advantage. At the very least a DF would start closing the gap, which is better than current situation. Most gamers love the X-LFD that wow implemented, sorry. 1) YOU might not be asking for 1:1 but a lot of people who come in here and say LFD tool needed are thinking straight up wow dungeon finder, and even arguing for it with that in mind. 2) The advantage is something that everyone can use, which is my point. You have created an incentive to play the game how you think it should be played, which is a mindless grind of dungeon after dungeon in a pursuit of lootz. Other people would prefer to play the game as a guild based social experience and can not maintain the same level of lootz by playing it the way they choose, pugging on server, meeting up with people on server, and waiting for guildies to get online so they can run content together. You argue that you should be on par with people who play all the time despite your lack of time, a choice you make, not to put the same time in to the game that they do. Why should the choice of how you form groups have a higher impact on the rate at which you can progress than the choice of how much time you put forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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