so your point had nothing to do with half your post? Nice. No one is going to use the LFG tool enough for it to matter, give it up. Same way they won't use a horse and buggy just because they don't have a car. Just because its the only option doesn't make it a desirable one. Players aren't gonna 'tough it out' when its a friggin video game. they basically decide if its bad enough, most likely compunded with other factors, to either work around it or leave outright. Same reason why MMO's that try and 'ease' people into PvP focused gameplay when thats the only option fail. If people are dead set on not wanting it, they never will.

sorry double post

WoW community was crap WELL before a DF came to be. So no, that is not an example. Not only that, OTHER GAMES HAVE IT TOO and low and friggin behold, the community didn't fall down all around them. This idea that it some how MAKES people worse is THE most asinine idea I have EVER heard in video games and a top contender for what i have heard in general. People ARE who they ARE. If you met jerks after DF was launched, guess what? GUESS WHAT? THEY ALREADY WERE JERKS. So people were getting worse even when you stayed out of DF I can promise you it wasn't PURELY because of the DF. *dun dun dun* Yes I know this must come as a shock to you but yes, all these things are true. Consider your argument thoroughly smashed if you actually like knowing what you are talking about.

Key word there is 'if', I'm pretty sure people would be slightly more inclined to use a tool that is a decade more advanced.

Nope, not lazy, we've only said it dozens of times and laid out in full how it isn't. Try harder. Good one! Still wrong. Wrong again, laid out in full on the first page and reiterated several times through this thread and others. What game was DESTROYED by a LFG tool? Name ONE. Again, read the front page and realize the depth of your ignorance. I'm in a guild and I raid three times a week. I would LOVE a dungeon finder.

Nice try but no good. Limiting the majorities playstyle in favor of your own prefrence = selfish. My stance might be selfish, but no where near the magnitude of anti-LFD since my requests would favor the majority no matter how they decide to play.

Exactly. Purely optionally on many levels as a matter of fact. Just using the tool would be optional for grouping and within that, server restriction would also be optional. If you are worried that so many people will use it that current methods would be nearly unusable, you are demanding the majority be held back because of your personal preference for an outdated system. Quite selfish, especially if the outcome could likely be it's success. And no, wanting this isn't me being selfish as well. If I wanted to be a selfish power hungry player I would demand that my way be the only way with no optional alternatives exactly like the anti-LFD and anti-xserver are doing. If you think you could still group the way you want but just don't other people grouping with DF tools, you have much bigger personal problems than a video game.

cross server LFWZ and level bracketing is on the way, FYI.

Well now I've stumbled upon a second question I guess you would call it. Either a LFD system would be popular success which means you are being selfish and just want a majority to play your way OR it will fail, as the anti-LFD people would suggest, and it wouldn't be something to worry about, it would come and go in a short amount of time and everyone would go back to the current methods. So which is it? Are you selfish or basically trolling when you KNOW it will fail?

Problem is personal experiences can be easily nullified with an opposing one, so therefore its a waste of time to bring them up at all.

I've pretty much given up. I already unsubbed a while ago but I just haven't been logging on my level 50 since my attempts before that were wasted hours of my life. This game has done nothing significant to STEAL me from EQ2, which I can get groups on without a LFD for anyone who still insists we are 'lazy.' Maybe I'll check SWTOR out again when I see they FINALLY launched some LFG improvements on Massively or something. I am starting to think smaller groups sizes are making groups harder to get when working with the 'holy trinity' formula. No matter the group size 3 of those slots are already determined, tank , healer, DPS. So in SWTOR that leaves 1 slot usually for DPS. In EQ2 there are 6 group slots, so you still have another 3 slots to fill with w/e the hell you want. So basically more people get in a group with the same amount of tanks and healers. 1 tank on SWTOR means 4 people get a group, 1 tank on some other MMO's means 5 or 6 people get a group. I would say bigger groups would be nice, but doing that would require a massive undertaking in content balance alone.

The longer SWTOR goes without some sort of LFG upgrade, the more the game will need a cross server LFD tool or at the very least 'liberal' use of server merges or transfers.

You really need to stop ASSUMING what the actions and thought processes of people other than yourself are if you want to be taken seriously.

I actually heard an interview recently saying the devs are working on cross server for WZ's since cross server is the only way a level bracketed PvP system would be feasible. i'll try and find it.

The argument isn't - "oh I get bad groups now and LFd will provide better ones." It's - "I get nearly ZERO groups now and LFD will provide a chance in hell at getting ANY."

using the current system is in no shape or form a compromise, it is a complete forfeiture on the side of people who want a better LFG system. anything more than the current system and less than a full blown WoW x-server DF is a compromise. At that point it simply becomes a tug of war. what differs is the argument behind them. Anti-LFD : I have personally don't like it and here are some bad experiences I have had. Also here are some completely hypothetical scenarios in favor of my argument. Pro-LFD : IN ADDITION to my positive personal experience, ever since its inception it has only grown in popularity to the point where it has become THE way to get groups not only in WoW but in other MMO's that feature it as well. Quite bluntly, anti-LFD has an argument of one person per person that is against it. Pro-LFD has literally thousands if not millions of supporters, considering all MMO's their players that willingly use it, before the debate even begins. The closest the opposition could do to claim mass support against LFD is some sort of special interest group that specifically says it is against LFD. Anti-LFD is the minority.

This thread(s) lead me to believe the majority of anti-LFD people have such a stance because with such tools other people don't have to put up with their undesirable attitude to progress in the video game. Kind of like how healers/tanks get a bit more 'slack' because groups can't function without them. "Okay this is how we are doing this because I am the leader and I said so!" "no thanks Mr.holier than thou *disband*" "WTH LFD sucks people just drop whenever! /oblivious" If people TRULY wanted to be your friend or be in your guild, the addition of LFD tools would do nothing to hinder that. They were your "friend" or guildee up until LFD because that was the best option available to them, not because they liked you.

Your argument has been repeatedly proven wrong before you even made your post. It is going to be very interesting what BW does after its next billing cycle. I suggest they send out an e-mail announcing any LFG improvements since I doubt the many people who would care about such things are still logging in regularly/subscribed to see patch notes.

If I didn't know your stance already and you left out the last two, I would have totally believed that was an argument from the opposition. They are so silly.

I just realized the reason this is getting a lot of opinions, conjecture, 'we's and generally vague statements is that don't have any facts to actually go off of that are in support of their position.

I do love all the personal opinions flying around as if it will some how make your viewpoint worth more than a '1'. Some people hate it, some people like it. The observable, demonstrable, undeniable fact is: LFD is growing across games, not shrinking. No game has yet to pick it up and then abandon it later. Please, PLEASE explain to me how LFD is so insanely bad while AT THE SAME TIME it only continues to gain traction with the MMO community. Seriously, I would LOVE to know, it would be a huge breakthrough. Otherwise I am inclined to believe that the thing people are voluntarily embracing and even requesting is generally a 'good' thing and not a 'bad' one.

I fail to see how holding this supposed AAA game up to the standards of MMO's before it is wanting it 'handed' to me. SWTOR literally has, as far as I can tell, the worst environment for grouping in the many MMO's I have played. Such as: dungeons and dragons online Everquest everquest 2 Guild Wars Rift World of Warcraft Dc Universe Online and more. If its not the LFG tool itself that's worse its the communication that's worse. If its not either its that it allows soloing so much up to 50 no one is used to grouping. the only way I could see the current system working is if they forced/severely obligated people to group for EVERYTHING after level 10 like FF11. that would be some seriously old school mechanics though that I don't think many would tolerate these days. Merging/closing servers would not bode well for onlookers when it comes to assessing the games success and in a roundabout way, EA's stock numbers. So I seriously doubt they will be doing that any time soon. If you think the main reason companies are reluctant to merge servers is over names, you are sorely mistaken.

Not me. i'm sure server side tool would work well enough on a decently populated server, problem is unless BioWare does something proactive about these low pop ones a server side only tool won't have anywhere near an even benefit across the servers. Some servers might not see much improvement at all, except people's lack of getting a group is more automated.

True but in this case a lot of people certainly seem to think so. I would rather go through 5 bad groups and 1 good one quickly than wait a long time for 1 good group, which may or may not actually be a good group. i'd rather just hurry up and get a bad spot and get going instead of driving around almost at random looking for a prime spot, which may not ever come up in the time frame I have.

You are mistaken in thinking a compromise is needed, or that even if we came to one here that it would matter. Here is what I am willing to bet will happen: We'll get a LFG tool that isn't a DF but very close. Kind of like a 'manual' DF that suggests pairings and compatible people and that is about it. Then it will move into same server automation. then it will move into cross server. The timeframe for these events? I haven't the slightest idea. the rest of this thread for me was just a moot debate, i just happen to like debating.