SWTOR feels more like a theme park than a world

[MaverickXIV]

So what you're trying to say is that a theme park MMO feels like a theme park?

[aimbotcfg]

In any case, I'd take interesting and difficult tasks over repetitive and simple tasks any day. Do you know of any such tasks in WoW or SWTOR?

 

You've downed everything on nightmare mode and are fully BIS? I'm (partially) Impressed... Well actually I'm not, I'm just pointing out that unless you have, your argument just went out of the window.

 

Still not understanding the difference, or being willfully ignorant of it. Requiring players to sink months into a task regardless of skill is inaccesible.

 

EVE is a fantastic example of this. Want to be good at the game? Sit inyour hangar and chain study.... You can never catch up to the people who have been playing for years, cause they are still chain studying, but please feel free to keep giving us your money. Why not go play EVE if you like that gameplay? Or EQ?

[Vis_Vires]

That's fine when you're talking just about this game, but for awhile it seemed like you were addressing the mmo genre as a whole. Seems kind of weird to talk about what modern mmos are missing and what's been lost when you admittedly haven't looked at most of what's out there.

 

Ok, it should read the games I want to play...

[DarthKhaos]

Its kinda difficult to sum up in an analogy like that. Person a would appreciate the water more because he's had to work harder for it. Person b would appreciate the tap more because its saved him the work.

 

2 different types of gamers. Those who enjoy the grind, and the end rewards given to them from their grind. Others dont have the time/patience for the grind, but want to enjoy the rewards.

 

Its not a case of one being right or wrong. Some people play single player games from start to finish with godmode on. Whatever floats your boat.

 

I am enjoying SWTOR. Yes its a themepark. Yes its not exactly how I'd like it to be. Yes I'm subbed and will be for quite some time.

 

Theres plenty of things which NEED fixes, and plenty of things which MAY need fixes/tweaks. IMO the death penalty could do with looking at, but thats because of my gaming experiences over the years. Another gamer, with say, more wow-raid type experience, would probably want more end game content.

Well said.

[TarikGur]

Well said.

 

Agreed...but my main questions is why cant they do both? why cant they have mutliple playing styles implemented in one giant awesome game? Why does it have to be one or the other?

[MadMalag]

Agreed...but my main questions is why cant they do both? why cant they have mutliple playing styles implemented in one giant awesome game? Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

Because of the general difference in the way the game is made. To have the types of features OP wants would require a different build to the over all game itself.

 

The way SWTOR plays now is meant to make it easy to jump in, play as a heroic, or villanous, character and jump out while also acheiving a minor victory on whatever road you want be it the level cap, the end of your story, or even a new weapon.

 

If something is too easy hardcore gamers complain or take advantage. If it's too hard then casual gamers spend less and less time on it and eventually leave for something less stressful.

 

It's also very hard to make everyone happy.

[Kurnea]

Agreed...but my main questions is why cant they do both? why cant they have mutliple playing styles implemented in one giant awesome game? Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

Because developer and studio resources are limited? Typically I don't expect one game to cater to a variety of players, and instead expect individual games to try for one audience and do it well. Take myself, I love fps games, however I don't expect Bioware to implement Battlefield style game-play in TOR. Instead I play TOR when I want MMO gameplay, and Battlefield 3 when I want a good fps.

[Vis_Vires]

It's also very hard to make everyone happy.

 

Exactly. BW set out with goal of what every company has: to make money.

 

To make money the game needs to be as popular as possible, so the game is designed with its target market (ie the biggest) in mind. You cant fault them for that!

[SwordofSodan]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies).

 

For your benefit, here's the harsh reality: people who spend 16 hours a day/7 days a week playing MMOs don't have the buying power of people with jobs (except those with very affluent parents or those who inherited some money). You may be able to afford the initial game and subscription, but you will not spending much down the line on additional services. Also, your subscription isn't worth the loss of hundreds of thousands of other subscriptions from people who find hardcore games unpalatable.

 

Videogame companies are not in the business of making nerds happy; they are in the business of making money. You don't make massive profit by catering to a small demographic with limited buying power. You make your profit by catering to as many people as possible, including those with limited time to play.

 

Anyone who plays 2-4 hours a night isn't going to put up with death penalties which involve massive credit losses and/or level losses, being unable to complete a dungeon because the area is overcrowded or others are griefing, and spending the vast majority of their playtime running between quest hubs.

 

They want to log on and accomplish something, whether it be gaining 1-2 levels, finishing a quest area, successfully completing a dungeon, etc.

 

Since we derive our sense of accomplishment from real-life activities and we deal with enough setbacks and negativity at our jobs, we don't need pain and "work" mixed in our entertainment. If a game requires me to do ridiculous amounts of grinding for the smallest things or sets me back considerably for the smallest mistake, I'm not going to buy it. Period.

 

You're playing the wrong MMO, I'm afraid.

Thank you for this most awesome post!

[RealCatmanDoes]

In response to the OP & adding to:

 

It's quite tragic how dumbed down MMO's have gotten. The MMOs of recent that I've tried, this one included, just seem to treat you with kid-gloves. I played BattleField 3 (not an MMO I know but bare with me) before SWTOR, the single player game was utterly awful because it was so linear, it wasn't a case of "complete this mission" it was "run behind this car, shoot 3 guys, move to wall, shoot 6 guys" just totally lost interest in it. This game is starting to feel like that a bit - don't get me wrong the quests and stuff are nicely done but they feel like they are really the only way to advance.

 

I really am enjoying SWTOR but it's far more single player than MMO. I dunno what will happen when the content runs out. I do love the content and Bioware have done a fantastic job so far but it is just KOTOR with real people playing in your game.

 

Sure you can create a guild, give people ranks etc but there's no tools for people to build on that. No guild objectives for everyone to work to. There seems virtually no benefit to being in a guild other than having access to a bunch of to ask for help on quests. You can't share old items because everything binds on pickup/equip so helping out lower levelled members involves either giving them money or crafting them what they require. You can't even support guild members that do different crafting to you because you can't collect resources for them. There's not even a guild vault and bank, when are we going to get these?

 

 

I believe Bioware will get there in the end, I just hope we don't have to wait too long.

 

 

In short: Give me a sandbox, let me go build. Give us community building tools, let us make our own fun.

 

Sadly my post will never get read by a Bioware employee and this thread will probably be on page 400 by tomorrow morning.

Edited January 13, 2012 by RealCatmanDoes

[Kurnea]

In response to the OP & adding to:

 

It's quite tragic how dumbed down MMO's have gotten. The MMOs of recent that I've tried, this one included, just seem to treat you with kid-gloves.

 

How much effort have you made finding mmos that don't treat you with kids-gloves? Have you tried Eve? Have you looked at many non-AAA mmos?

I played BattleField 3 before SWTOR, the single player game was utterly awful because it was so linear, it wasn't a case of "complete this mission" it was "run behind this car, shoot 3 guys, move to wall, shoot 6 guys" just totally lost interest in it. This game is starting to feel like that a bit - don't get me wrong the quests and stuff are nicely done but they feel like they are really the only way to advance.

 

This game was always supposed to be story-focused, much like previous Bioware games which were also fairly linear.

 

 

In short: Give me a sandbox, let me go build. Give us community building tools, let us make our own fun.

 

Sadly my post will never get read by a Bioware employee and this thread will probably be on page 400 by tomorrow morning.

 

Hear me out: To me, this comes across as a guy who stepped into a Taco Bell and is complaining that there's a lack fo hamburgers. If you want a sandbox game, then buy a sandbox game in the first place. Take Minecraft, lots of building, great sandbox game, terrific community.

[Maughann]

EQ is more accurately described as limping along. It's hardly what you'd call a mainstream game and even at it's peak it could only claim subscription numbers that today would be called a failure.

 

Accessibility was what made WoW popular and it is possible for a game to be both accessible and challenging. Making something simple to use isn't 'dumbing down'

 

EQ was an exercise in frustration and time wasting.

 

I played EQ from release through Kunark, Luclin, Velious and PoP and I raided during those times. I can't look at the game with the same rose-tinted glasses the posters here seem to be.

 

I welcome the progress made in the genre and will be subscribed to SWTOR for a long time to come.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Maughann

[Palemoonsdream]

I just wanted to reply to the OP directly, and didn’t stand to read much of the flame-war following it. So I’m not going into that matter. First of all, it’s quite obvious (aka hit into the face with a big club that has EQ written on it) that you are a huge Everquest fan that would like to have every game being a Everquest-clone, only better. I respect that, while I can’t understand it, but I respect that. You won’t get that much love from the big mass though if you start the flamewar yourself with using terms like “MMORPGs noobs that will try to set me straight”, thereby saying “I’m right by default because whoever objects is a noob”. I simply hope that was not your intention, since if it was you won’t even read this, bathing in superiority. Anyway. First of all, Everquest is more than 10 Years old. I think it’s as likely they’ll use it as a baseline than they will use UO. I guess sometimes it’s time to let go. The reasons you stated for WoW being popular are like the reasons old Super-8 fans state for why Video is popular but crap. But it’s not about that, of course. Let’s tackle your topics:

 

Instancing. Back in the golden age of MMORPG’s as you call it, aka the time where they had (compared to today) nearly no players, sure there was no such thing as running dungeons. But while even I agree that instancing can lead to quite surreal situations, it’s vital. Extremely vital. For example: Today, while I had half an hour to play (I know, ashes on my head, but I have to work 10 hours a day), I was trying to do a quest in one of the rare non-instanced areas. And oh, surprise, I wasn’t alone there! I had all those lovely negative and positive interactions you talk about. While waiting for respawn. 20 Minutes. Sure, it’s nice to have those other players here, tagging enemies and everything, but seriously, immersion into the really lovely done quests would be impossible. Even most of the awesome instanced quests would be impossible. Lately I had a quests where something escaped and slaughtered EVERYTHING on it’s way out of the building, and when I followed there were corpses everywhere. In a non-instanced version happy smiling npc would greet me all along. Know what I mean? It would be like “yeah, whatever, did that event even happen?”

 

As for the death penalty. I agree, when you’re not max level the sums for repair are something to grin about, and that could increase. But as I said before, I’m a casual. Loosing 1-2 Hours worth of XP or Money throw my gaming progress back a whole WEEK. I know by now that most of the time the people complaining about these things have super amounts of gaming time at their hands like “It’s too fast, I played to 50 in a week!”, such stuff is impossible to me. Even as it is I progress slowly, do every quest, and sometimes, damn, you overestimate yourself, or adds spawn, and bam, you’re dead. If the death penalty would be as hard as you like it, I guess I’ve quit the game by now, it would cripple my gaming life too much. Imagine that you only get half an hour a day for gaming and every third day you loose 1-2 Hours of gaming progress.

 

Same goes for Quick Travel. If you have the time to travel by mount or foot, why don’t you simly do so? Not flaming here, just a serious question. If you have the time at hand, simply do it! Don’t give a **** if the other players are bouncing around, if you enjoy it more with walking, walk. Personally I feel the world being extremely large as it is. Nar Shadarr without a mount? Doing one quest is 5 minute questing and 20 minutes of walking. And I’m goddamn pleased that I can quicktravel back afterwards before I log out. Increasing the Quicktravel to the 18 hours cooldown of the fleetpass would personally shatter my spirit about questing. When the shere amount of travelling to and from a quest takes as long as visiting a friend real life with public transport that’s a limit to me.

 

As for the Quest indicators … well, I have to agree it makes it kind of simple. But you have again to consider: You are free to read the text, listen to the lovely cutscenes, everything. If one dork doesn’t want to do so and miss everything, you can’t FORCE him to do so. And there’s the risk of it being the other way round too, you know? Like using wow as example, there were quests with “Find XY, he’s around here somewhere”, and that included a whole subcontinent offroads. Or a simple mis-translation in the quest text that had you running around never finding your objective because it was translated differently. Also look at the worlds and think about how you would describe the location with words, on tatooine for example. A quest NPC told me today that “It’s somewhere in the west”. Well. The deserts are HUGE! I guess I’ve searched my *** off if I wouldn’t have had an indicator.

 

And when it comes to match making, we finally agree about something

[Vis_Vires]

EQ is more accurately described as limping along. It's hardly what you'd call a mainstream game and even at it's peak it could only claim subscription numbers that today would be called a failure.

 

A little unfair. Sure its slowly dying off, nothing last forever. But back then those sub numbers were as impressive as wow at its peak. Kinda.

 

I played EQ from release through Kunark, Luclin, Velious and PoP and I raided during those times. I can't look at the game with the same rose-tinted glasses the posters here seem to be.

 

I on the other hand, do wear rose tinted glasses. Fond, fond memories. Probably because I know deep down, that I will never re-live that again.

 

I welcome the progress made in the genre and will be subscribed to SWTOR for a long time to come.

If the progress makes the genre more popular - which it obviously has, then I'm for it. and I too, will hopefully be subbed for a long time.

[iRouven]

That being said, I can't believe how far the MMORPG genre has fallen since Everquest (EQ).

 

Let me say first that I have not played Everquest. My first online game was Meridian59, then Wow, Aion, Eve, Lotro.

 

Instancing: Back during the golden age of MMORPGs, there was no such thing as "running dungeons," (...)

 

So what about camping, was it fun not to be able to get to a boss because you had to line up and some farmers stayed there day and night?

 

Death penalty: (...) But they could create servers with alternate rule sets. Just a thought.

 

Alternate servers would be a nice idea. Other than that I remember how "fun" it was to aquire some % in your skills for then the PK to come up, kill you and all you did the last two hours was for naught. Fine if it happens once a night ...

 

Quick travel: There's nothing wrong with quick travel per se. (...)

 

I agree, but now look at the threads ... oh this is just a timesink, all this travelling and running and our speeders are not 5000% fast ...

There is literally no way to please everyone in the audience on this one.

 

Quest indicators: Like the quick travel system, I think this is being abused. It's to the point where 90% of the time you don't even have to read (or listen to) quest text. All you need to do is bring up your map and follow the giant pulsating dots and circles (KILL 5 MONKEYS). I think this sort of thing contributes to the mindlessness of current MMORPGs.

 

Agree.

 

Match making: By match making I mean any button that you can press that will automatically group you up with other players, and then teleport you to some destination. I see this as contra to some of the things that MMORPGs are supposed to be about; namely, community and adventuring. Fortunately, Bioware has decided to leave dungeon finder out of the game, for now. Unfortunately, I think it will inevitably make its way into the game in the future.

 

Reality check is that this is a business. Some of the games or mechanics you described only appeal to a niche type of people, call them hardcore or whatever you like. Some people prefer a car that has no luxuries whatsoever and you can feel every pebble on the road, the majority of people like the most luxuries they can afford. I know I'm getting old because the first question of my nephew when looking at the new SUV of my brother-in-law was "does it have an iPhone dock?".

 

I'm afraid there is no going back on a lot of things and future generations won't know different.

[Marlaine]

The ironic thing about this thread is that nothing in the OP's post has anything to do with themepark vs open world.

[RealCatmanDoes]

How much effort have you made finding mmos that don't treat you with kids-gloves? Have you tried Eve? Have you looked at many non-AAA mmos?

 

This game was always supposed to be story-focused, much like previous Bioware games which were also fairly linear.

 

Hear me out: To me, this comes across as a guy who stepped into a Taco Bell and is complaining that there's a lack fo hamburgers. If you want a sandbox game, then buy a sandbox game in the first place. Take Minecraft, lots of building, great sandbox game, terrific community.

 

Yeah I played EVE a fair bit, it was ok but the combat was far from thrilling for me.

 

I always figured this would be a KOTOR MMO but I expected far more in the way of communities and guilds coming together.

 

Err yeah played Minecraft too, that was great fun too. So many hours wasted building silly things but it was huge fun, working on projects with friends, trying to make cannons etc.

 

Why can't I have a sandbox Star Wars MMO?? (and no they turned off SWG, and yes, I did).

[Anubissangel]

EQ was, for all intents and purposes, a second life and probably had something to do with the reason it PEAKED at 600k subscribers and hovered around the 200k mark most of the time.

 

Most people have to get up at 5-7am, go to work, hang out with friends, give time and attention to kids and family, and take care of their investments (home, car, ect). MOST people don't have time to come home run around in an endless world with a stupid *** slow mount, or no mount at all, have no fast travel, compete with 3 other MONSTER guilds for bosses that take 6 hours to kill, and worry about LOSING levels if they die; and in some cases losing their gear.

 

MMORPGs are WAY WAY WAY WAY (hope i'm getting the point across) WAY WAY better now then they where in the EQ days. The goal of ENTERTAINMENT, of any kind, is to have FUN with your free time. You simply cannot do that in a game like EQ was; heck the crafting in EQ took 100 times longer to level then leveling does in mmorpgs these days....

 

EQ was bad, it was a terrible game, with terrible game mechanics and there are only a FEW people, like yourself, who think otherwise.

 

...and if you still don't think so then what is your explination for even the worst of MMOs having a higher subscriber base then EQ did at it's PEAK? Also; the point should be drivin even futher home with EQ2; SOE was so stupid they thought their origonal model would work in a time with WoW around; I know of more than 3 people that had zero experinece with MMOs before Wow try EQ2 and say "screw that nonsence."

 

The MMOs of the EQ days will never ever return and I'd go as far to say that MMOs in the future will be even LESS time consuming. MMOs these days appeal to a far greater audience instead of the tiny niche of people that EQ did.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Anubissangel

[Yfelsung]

Sandbox MMOs don't do nearly as well financially as Theme Park.

 

As long as we live in a society where the acquisition of wealth is the primary goal of most people, this is what we're going to get.

[Kurnea]

Why can't I have a sandbox Star Wars MMO?? (and no they turned off SWG, and yes, I did).

 

Because right now no developers are supporting a Star Wars sandbox mmo? I want a Star Wars mmofps, why can't I have that? Is it reasonable for me to expect that this game puts in Battlefront style gameplay to satisfy me?

 

And what about the X-Wing versus TIE Fighter crowd, why can't they have what they want? As has been said, you can't please everybody with a single game.

[RealCatmanDoes]

Sandbox MMOs don't do nearly as well financially as Theme Park.

 

As long as we live in a society where the acquisition of wealth is the primary goal of most people, this is what we're going to get.

 

Very true but why can't we have some sandbox elements for those that want it? Best of both worlds People run out of content and when they do they either go away and find something else or start doing their own thing.

 

Sadly it seems these days people have very short attention spans and get bored very quickly.

[Yfelsung]

Very true but why can't we have some sandbox elements for those that want it? Best of both worlds People run out of content and when they do they either go away and find something else or start doing their own thing.

 

Sadly it seems these days people have very short attention spans and get bored very quickly.

 

Because the addition of those sandbox elements aren't going to increase sales or player retention.

 

No point in adding stuff that's not going to increase money made.

 

That's how our world works, like it or not.

[Wolfeisberg]

First of all. Every single MMORPG is a grind (at least according to you). To you, progression = grind.

 

Questing = grind. Running the same dungeons over and over = grind. Killing mobs = grind.

 

Regardless, I don't think anyone here said they wanted a grind... In fact, I never mentioned anything about leveling in my original post. Did you even read it?

 

 

 

The reason why I'm complaining is to let Bioware know that there are still players like me that don't like theme park MMORPGs.

 

Im sure they know there are players out there who would want what you want. But here is the thing, are you a very small minority who wants it. Bioware are in a business to make money, and right now Theme park MMOs make more money then sandbox MMOs. But don't fret, there is a game called Dark Fall that is a sandbox MMO that has what you want, you can go play that game.

 

I would never expect any developer to spend large amounts of money to develop a Sandbox MMO, those types of games are going to be reserved for the developers like the the one who made dark fall but at a much smaller budget.

[Kurnea]

Because the addition of those sandbox elements aren't going to increase sales or player retention.

 

No point in adding stuff that's not going to increase money made.

 

That's how our world works, like it or not.

 

It's how big budget AAA games work. If investors pour in millions of dollars to make a game, they want even more money coming back.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If people want niche features, maybe they should look into niche games, instead of expecting games with enormous budgets and advertising to cater to a niche group. Again, look at Minecraft: Low budget, no advertising other than word of mouth, and a perfect game for the sandbox community. TOR: Huge budget, lots of advertising, it's going to blatantly cater to the larger gamer market.

[Gestas]

EQ is more accurately described as limping along. It's hardly what you'd call a mainstream game

 

The popularity of an argument has no bearing on its logic, nor does the popularity of a game have any bearing on how good it is. Justin Beiber seems like a pretty popular guy. In fact, at the moment, Justin Beiber's music is probably more popular than Frank Sinatra's music. Does that mean Justin Beiber's music is better?

 

and even at it's peak it could only claim subscription numbers that today would be called a failure.

 

At its peak I think it had around 500,000 subscribers. Which isn't a failure in today's standards. You also have to consider that the idea to pay a monthly fee to play a game was very taboo at this time. Most people at this time thought this was a huge waste of money.

 

Accessibility was what made WoW popular

 

No, what made WoW popular is as follows:

 

1. It was developed by a popular company (Blizzard).

2. WoW is based on a popular universe (Warcraft).

3. WoW was released during a time when EQ was in its decline, when people were fed up with SOE's antics.

4. Good controls and UI.

 

It had nothing to do with lenient death penalties, for instance, contrary to what some people might think. I remember going to WoW from EQ and the thing that stuck out to me the most was how polished WoW was, not "Oh wow, the death penalty is weak! Good!"

 

and it is possible for a game to be both accessible and challenging. Making something simple to use isn't 'dumbing down'

 

Sure, but in regard to WoW, I know of no "new feature" that didn't decrease the game's difficulty. In other words, yes, you can increase accessibility while keeping difficulty, but that's not what happened with WoW.

 

EQ was an exercise in frustration and time wasting.

 

Because you don't like challenging games. Any challenging game to you is "frustrating" and a "time waster." You're a Game Genie kid, right?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas