Complaining about endgame IS NOT justifiable.

[Spynnal]

Are you sure about that? Because I've seen most people say that WoW only had 1-2 raids at release.

 

WoW released Nov '04. Through June '05, there were 2 raids only. (Raids being 40...15/10/5 being something else altogether)

 

The two 40 mans were Onyxia and MC. However, you couldn't walk right in. There were quest lines to become "keyed". The Ony chain was very long, and included runs through some of the 5/10/15 mentioned before you could enter. MC had 8 bosses (?), and due to some "resistance" fights, quite a bit of side gearing was needed to beat a few early on.

 

So yes, 2 raids in the first 8 months of the game. They were stretched with long keying quests to enter, or gear checks with resistances, which let them last a bit.

 

BWL was the 3rd raid zone, released in June/July '05.

 

And yes, some guilds finished MC in April/May, and the forums rang with calls of "need more endgame", though in honesty, the majority of players never got done with MC before BWL was available.

[PjPablo]

Maybe someone should point out there were 5 end game raids in WOW at release: Molten Core, Onyxia, Strat, Scholo, and UBRS. The difficulty on Molten Core was such that it took most groups 3+ months to clear.

 

Blizzard at least knew end game was important.

 

But I'm done complaining and after the 21st, won't be posting on these boards anymore.

 

Edit: Meant UBRS--not LBRS

 

First Rag kill was in April, so 5 months after launch. The issue with raids here is they are already cleared and we aren't even 30 DAYS in. That's an issue for folks that like difficult endgame.

[Zekid]

Maybe you should have stopped grinding so fast and enjoyed the content that is there for pre lvl 50? Maybe you should go start another character and enjoy their story or even the other faction? Maybe this time you actually do the quests on each planet fully? appreciate the story on each planet? Maybe you explore the amazing looking worlds as you go and not just jump from quest hub to quest hub? You rush to 50 and then complain that there's nothing to do. When you go to a theme park do you complain that there isn't enough to do in the car park on the way out? There are great points throughout this thread pointing out that content is to come and that you not appreciating that IS there and focusing on what ISN'T.

 

It has to be said but you and the other maybe 10k people who play MMO's to get to max level then get the best gear then prawn everyone. are a very SMALL number of the poeple who enjoy these games. You have to consider that it will take people with real lives and jobs a lot longer to hit cap. I am having loads of fun playing this game and I feel I'm leveling too fast.

A successful game is the one who appeals to the most people and I'm sorry but you are not 'most' people. In fact I bet Bioware Wouldn't mind if you quit. You flood the forum with your complaints because you have consumed the game far to fast and want more. you complain about every little thing you encounter because you expected a perfect game. You have already committed to play this game for a long time because well lets face it. you just hit cap. You wanna prawn at least 20k people before you quit, am I right?

 

you can quit for all I or anyone else cares mate. You being cap is not our problem and its not biowares either. This game has maybe 1k hours content before you have to repeat anything. Your just ignoring most of it because it doesn't improve your gear or your ability to prawn those who level slower than you.

 

Bascailly you finished the game mate. Get over it. Buy a new game or live with the fact that you finished it too quickly and now have nothing to do until a big patch.

 

PS: Get over yourself, why should anyone do anything because your not happy with this game? Its not YOUR game, is EVERYONE's game.

[timtty]

Maybe someone should point out there were 5 end game raids in WOW at release: Molten Core, Onyxia, Strat, Scholo, and UBRS. The difficulty on Molten Core was such that it took most groups 3+ months to clear.

 

Blizzard at least knew end game was important.

 

But I'm done complaining and after the 21st, won't be posting on these boards anymore.

 

Edit: Meant UBRS--not LBRS

 

Scholo and Strat are/were 5 mans, YOU CANT EVEN GET IT RIGHT, guessing because YOU DIDNT PLAY THEN.

[DariuszPol]

WoW is a game that patched and worked through content FOR YEARS.

 

This game isn't even a month old.

 

Your expectations are suprisingly high.

 

I wouldn't want to tell you what to do... but maybe you were expecting too much out of this game.

 

So we will play other games and we will check IN YEARS if there is something to do. If you don't understand that then I'm very sorry.

Also noone really complain about endgame. How you can complain about something that not exist?

[Striker]

So we will play other games and we will check IN YEARS if there is something to do. If you don't understand that then I'm very sorry.

Also noone really complain about endgame. How you can complain about something that not exist?

 

What other games? Like Rift? Because WoW has the same amount or less relevant content than TOR. Rift is one of the few MMOs that still requires progressing through raid tiers and experiencing more than the latest patch.

[ZenBones]

End-game content in MMORPGs is almost always sparse at launch. I can understand this from the standpoint of wanting to make sure the leveling is solid, since for the first few months, 95% of the player-base won't see the end-game.

 

But the industry should know by now that the more serious players will hit the level cap within the first few weeks, and these are potentially your most loyal customers. In a way, I think it's very short-sighted for end-game to be weak at launch, since the industry is mature enough to know without a doubt how the player-base will react.

[Meldwyn]

These threads are hilarious to me...

How can so many Vanilla WoW players all remember things so differently?

 

Anyway, here's to visiting the forum of a brand new MMO 8 years from now and reminiscing about how SW had xy and z at launch and this one doesn't... blah blah blah.

[Spynnal]

Scholo and Strat are/were 5 mans, YOU CANT EVEN GET IT RIGHT, guessing because YOU DIDNT PLAY THEN.

 

Scholo and Strat were 10 mans originally. They become 5 mans much later. And in the early going, you could run 40 through in a group, making it a joke. But you're right, it was not end game.

[DannyInternets]

My impression of the OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc Edited January 11, 2012 by DannyInternets

[Spynnal]

These threads are hilarious to me...

How can so many Vanilla WoW players all remember things so differently?

 

Anyway, here's to visiting the forum of a brand new MMO 8 years from now and reminiscing about how SW had xy and z at launch and this one doesn't... blah blah blah.

 

Because they went through a zillion patches early on that majorly changed everything. WoW was a mess at release, and changed drastically in the first 6 months. People need to sit back and give this game 6 months to adjust itself.

[Striker]

First Rag kill was in April, so 5 months after launch. The issue with raids here is they are already cleared and we aren't even 30 DAYS in. That's an issue for folks that like difficult endgame.

 

Rag wasn't even in the game at launch. So the real comparison would be how long until they kill the final boss in karaga's palace that is added in a few weeks. But the artificial barrier issues, leveling time which are all bigger factors than end game content and challenge existing. If all the TOR raids required 40 people with force resist gear they wouldn't be complete yet either.

[Striker]

Scholo and Strat were 10 mans originally. They become 5 mans much later. And in the early going, you could run 40 through in a group, making it a joke. But you're right, it was not end game.

 

Couldn't you could raid any dungeon at release too? From the stories I've heard from friends that played at high end guilds at WoW's launch your statements are legit.

[ElevenSword]

WoW is a game that patched and worked through content FOR YEARS.

 

This game isn't even a month old.

 

Your expectations are suprisingly high.

 

I wouldn't want to tell you what to do... but maybe you were expecting too much out of this game.

 

 

You also didnt hit endgame in Vanilla wow in only a week. They made leveling to fast and no content at the end of the road. How do you people not understand this?

[Spynnal]

Couldn't you could raid any dungeon at release too? From the stories I've heard from friends that played at high end guilds at WoW's launch your statements are legit.

 

Any of the 5/10 were open, and you could form a 40 man raid and run em all. UBRS, the only 15 man, needed a key to get in, but anyone keyed could open it for anyone else, regardless if they finished the key line. That was the first few months only, and you couldn't complete quests in that 40 man format. So people would gather 40, run it, drop group, form a fast 10 man, complete quest, re-form. Cheaters paradise!

 

But Ony and MC, the only two real raids, were all there was for the first 7 months. They were stretched out with 20+ part keying questlines, and eventual resistance checks (fire in MC) on the bosses. Both were stall tactics, because content was thin til BWL and after.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Spynnal

[Barathos]

You people are so dense. This game was created to compete with TODAY's games, not 2004s. What WoW was like in 2004 is completely irrelevant. It's not very hard to understand.

 

You're defeating somebody's arguement by saying they're dense, but somebody else defeated somebody's arguement (that was basicly your arguement) by saying that THEY'RE dense..

 

There's a pattern on these forums.

[Casil]

Maybe it's just my viewpoint, but it seems like there's a sufficient, if not substantial, amount of content for players to do at end-game - datacrons, completing the codex, PvP grind, 6 hard mode flashpoints per faction and 2 operations should be able to keep many players busy until the next content patch assuming they are average gamers. Obviously not everyone will want to do every activity, but that's how these games work. That said, I would like to see Bioware make a hard mode for every flashpoint in order to ensure people eventually see the content of those FPs 6 months from now.

 

I'd say the real issue is not the amount of end-game content, but the speed at which it can be consumed by dedicated players. Simply put, reading through these threads it seems like a player with a few hours a night can get the best gear, be it PvE or PvP with only a relatively small time investment and a healthy dose of RNG luck.

 

There's also problems with bugs and balancing, but it seems like at the end of the day, a player can be equipped in full champions and columi gear by simply spending 3-6 hours a week on PvP and PvE respectively. By removing the skinner box addiction and turning everything into a loot pinata, Bioware made it easy for people to deck themselves out in nearly the best gear possible. All that's left is to grind to Valor Rank 60 or through Nightmare bosses for the last few pieces. Whether that's good or bad depends on each person, but I don't see how Bioware can change the system now without putting up larger barriers for everyone that didn't push to 50 early.

[mezamashii]

Rag wasn't even in the game at launch. So the real comparison would be how long until they kill the final boss in karaga's palace that is added in a few weeks. But the artificial barrier issues, leveling time which are all bigger factors than end game content and challenge existing. If all the TOR raids required 40 people with force resist gear they wouldn't be complete yet either.

 

Yeah, this. Raiding in vanilla wasnt hard or better than tor, it was simply a massive gear/attunement check (attunements... Remember those?).

 

For better or worse, tor is following the modern mmo trend to remove fight specific/resist gear grinds, attunement grinds, and large raid sizes. Net result, their ops can be cleared faster by a specific group of overachievers.

 

It doesnt mean they have less content, it just means the content can be consumed faster by smaller groups with less organizational overhead. The reality, of course, is that those groups are a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

[PjPablo]

Rag wasn't even in the game at launch. So the real comparison would be how long until they kill the final boss in karaga's palace that is added in a few weeks. But the artificial barrier issues, leveling time which are all bigger factors than end game content and challenge existing. If all the TOR raids required 40 people with force resist gear they wouldn't be complete yet either.

 

Yes he was. MC and Ony were in game at launch. It just took a while to complete them. Ony was easier. Jan was first kill.

[Drakos]

The thing is, TOR's endgame progression doesn't seem to compare to WoW's endgame progression, and a lot of that simply stemmed from the nature of how Endgame ran back in the day.

 

 

You had to get your Scholo / UBRS Key (or run all of LBRS) in order to even run them (don't get me started on the Onyxia and MC attunements, which people barely even knew about back then), the pieces you needed for a set dropped rarely off specific bosses in dungeons and couldn't be bought with commendations, and you needed at least some of that gear in order to begin running MC, not to mention the Resistance gear Grind. Did players enjoy it? Not really, not -all- of it, certainly. But it did a lot to stretch out endgame at launch.

 

 

And while Comparing TOR to WoW currently is also probably a bad idea, the fact remains that the game doesn't really have much of a progression ladder, nor give strong incentive to progress. Moddable gear lasts until level 50, at 50 you can run hard-modes to get commendation gear and then you're done.

[DonDuke]

In before..

 

 

"You can't compare a game that's 7 years old to a game that's brand new, this isn't 2004!"

 

 

 

Which they'll say, except... it's the same with any MMO it doesn't matter what year it is.

 

So that point in invalid.

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? My head is spinning trying to hold onto the logic in your argument. Circles, and circles and circles.........................

[mezamashii]

Yes he was. MC and Ony were in game at launch. It just took a while to complete them. Ony was easier. Jan was first kill.

 

Yes, using the blizz definition of "in", which is "boss that is completely bugged and unkillable and we wont worry about fixing that until a couple vanguard guilds have had a chance to let us know just how broken the encounters are".

[DonDuke]

Yeah, this. Raiding in vanilla wasnt hard or better than tor, it was simply a massive gear/attunement check (attunements... Remember those?).

 

For better or worse, tor is following the modern mmo trend to remove fight specific/resist gear grinds, attunement grinds, and large raid sizes. Net result, their ops can be cleared faster by a specific group of overachievers.

 

It doesnt mean they have less content, it just means the content can be consumed faster by smaller groups with less organizational overhead. The reality, of course, is that those groups are a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

 

Excellent point Mez.

[PjPablo]

Yes, using the blizz definition of "in", which is "boss that is completely bugged and unkillable and we wont worry about fixing that until a couple vanguard guilds have had a chance to let us know just how broken the encounters are".

 

So like TOR content only more expansive?

[Spynnal]

Yeah, this. Raiding in vanilla wasnt hard or better than tor, it was simply a massive gear/attunement check (attunements... Remember those?).

 

For better or worse, tor is following the modern mmo trend to remove fight specific/resist gear grinds, attunement grinds, and large raid sizes. Net result, their ops can be cleared faster by a specific group of overachievers.

 

It doesnt mean they have less content, it just means the content can be consumed faster by smaller groups with less organizational overhead. The reality, of course, is that those groups are a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

 

Exactly. We made it to the Ragnaros fight by March/April I think, but couldn't kill it until like May/June. Took almost 2/3 months to get 40 people geared into their asbestos suits to win.

 

There was not a lot of content. Ony/MC. 9 raid bosses in 2 raid zones for the first 7 months til BWL. It lasted due to insane keying quests (which they later dropped), and hard resistance checks (which they later added gear drops to make easier to get to).

Edited January 11, 2012 by Spynnal