Why complaining about End Game is very justifiable.

[maxbaby]

I hate this argument

 

MMOs shouldn't even have more than one Raid anymore. Just make one boss, with 500 levels of difficulty; then no one will ever really clear the content

 

why are you still trolling here? go away already.

they make different levels to cater to different crowds.

I like this easy, some don't. rewards are different.

go play single-player or put a sandbox in your room and build castles.

[Bgiffo]

It was in the thread...

 

The thread talking about how other threads that moan and whine are somehow just as legitimate as the actually constructive ones. My former points stand.

[Fyrestar]

I'm really sick of listening to these players that complain about "**** I WAS MAX LEVEL IN 15 MINUTES OF BUYING THE GAME AND NOW I'M BORED!!!!!!!!!!!!!" This game, if played properly, should be a gradual progression to max level. If you skip all of the side quests and power level, you'll never be happy with TOR because you're main concern is to get to the end game as quick as possible. This game is less than a month old and everyone is ready to quit for this reason or that reason. Just because the game has gone Gold, doesn't mean that it's finished. It just means that it was good enough to release. Roll an alt and explore the planets, do the side quests, search for lore items, locate all of the Datacrons...there's always something fun to do!

[RannStarcloud]

So players are penalized for playing a certain way? More specifically, they're penalized for playing to end-game quickly because end-game wasn't designed properly?

 

That doesn't seem like something that someone should "reap what they sow" from...

 

Look at t this way:

 

someone cooks and prepares a nice 7 course meal for you. But instead of taking the time to enjoy each course, have a nice discourse with others at the table, you take one bite out of each course, scarf down your desert and begin screaming for more desert.

 

Most players are still finishing their soup and starting on the main course. You are lucky the chef was nice enough to put all 7 courses on the table before the dinner started.

 

maybe if you didn't power level to 50 so fast you would have something to do.

 

If I could have my way as a developer I would design the game so that you could not do ANY end game content without completing 95% of the leveling quests. You would have to unlock it by actually playing the game as intended.

I would put as many cut-scenes into every flashpoint and operation as i could with no way to skip them and eliminate the ability for players to zerk through content, even if they outleveled it.

 

I am really tired of all these players with ADD/FPS syndrome whining and crying because they chose to power their way to max level and ignore the journey. Then they turn around and complain because they have nothing to do.

 

So to answer your question: Yes you reap what you sow buddy. While you are waiting for the majority of the playerbase to catch up, you can go play battlefield 3 or rerolll. Maybe go read a book or go outside?

 

Seriously, the game is offically 22 days old. You chose to powerlevel. Nobody twisted your arm.

[SWImara]

The type of players out there now, after having WoW - and all the other MMO's that have completely failed - are very different than when WoW was first released.

 

A large portion of players these days plow through the content, probably faster than expected, and if there is a lot of buggy and non-functioning content at max level, all of those players are right to be upset.

Do you have any data whatsoever to back this up? I (presumably like you) have played a ton of MMOs, and I generally assume that people who develop games know the behaviors/habits of people who play them and what they should add more of. If a large portion of players plowed through content and were only concerned about end game material, it seems likely that either A) leveling would be harder or B) developers would put all of their time and effort into new endgame stuff. In the last few years however games have changed to cater much more heavily to "casual" users, do you think that's happenstance?

 

It's bioware's job to make sure that end game content is working, abundant, and finely tuned in terms of difficulty and the amount of time required to put in or there are going to be quite a few people not logging on anymore.

 

If bioware isn't quick to solve the end game issues, SWTOR will follow the same fate as many other promised MMO's, the most similar I can think of is Age of Conan, levels 1 - 20 were amazing and now.... well the game is free to play with an option to pay.

 

/end rant

AoC's biggest problem wasn't endgame, it never was, seriously. It was a poorly conceptualized combat system (would've been great if not for casters) and a deplorable system of PvP for a game that claimed to focus on it. PvE felt tacked on in AoC and was never honestly any good after level 20. Saddens me to say that as I love the setting and wanted to love the game.

 

 

I hate this argument

 

MMOs shouldn't even have more than one Raid anymore. Just make one boss, with 500 levels of difficulty; then no one will ever really clear the content

I hate this argument.

 

Leveling is easy in SWTOR, no question, but not everyone who plays this (or any other) MMO is a raid grinder. The end gamey "more raids plz" crowd will never be satisfied with the volume of content set aside for them even when that becomes all that developers push out. The differing tiers of raid/dungeon difficulty seriously is a great middle ground in the attempt to provide content for different groups (for those jr. raiders etc who can't handle the later tier) rather than putting out 18 different level 50 dungeons and no new leveling/midgame content.

 

Honestly IMO the less raids the better, unless that is BW intends to make all current dungeon's/raids also scaleable for when they eventually raise level cap. The heavy focus on end game content (other than PvP) typically ends up being an utter waste when in at most a year or so, an expansion is released and no one ever does any of that old end game content anymore. It'd be nice if developers just stopped focusing on the old "layered levels of end game" content model and just tried to develop something new/different.

Edited January 11, 2012 by SWImara

[genghiscon]

In a new MMO that you expect to grow in the coming months (which is every), you want to focus on making sure the leveling experience meets expectations. This is your most important goal pre-release. You want to make sure the systems are in place for Endgame (which they are) but you want to make sure that everyone has a smooth leveling experience (it started out a little wonky for a few people but they quickly fixed it).

 

This being said, its more important to have a complete leveling experience at release than a fully fleshed out endgame? Why you say. simple, that's where your majority playerbase will be even months after release in a game you are expecting to grow (once again, every MMO expects this). It is for this reason that you release the game with an almost complete/complete leveling experience (which this game did) and with the framework of endgame in (which this game did also). You will then focus your patches on squashing the inevitable bugs and patching in a more complete endgame (also Bioware is doing just this).

 

You do this because, like I said, this is where your playerbase is, even months after release. As long as you are gaining more than losing, you will see that most players will be below cap. You will also see that since the leveling experience is in the game already, they can focus more closely on endgame for the duration of the expansion cycle.

 

This is an excellent post.

[Mrshush]

Ill "bite" your obvious troll post

 

Lets take WoW as an example, as people here tend to do.

 

At launch:

 

2 World Raid Bosses

 

2 Raids - Onyxia's Lair / Molten Core

 

Oh... and the only kind of pvp you could do was non organized world pvp.

 

No hardmodes, no battlegrounds, no alternate pvp games, no daily quests... nothing.

 

Old republic at launch:

 

2 Operations (raids) with 2 modes each (8 vs 16 players) - Eternity Vault / Karagga's Palace

 

12 world raid bosses, ranging in levels to appeal to every range of players.

 

3 PVP Warzones

 

Hardmode flashpoints

 

Daily quests (space, heroics, flashpoints, pvp)

 

I think TOR stacks up pretty nicely.

 

world bosses were added in i believe 2-4months after release. molten core could not be completed due to serious game breaking bugs on garr.

 

however. i do like your math =D

Edited January 11, 2012 by Mrshush

[Jybwee]

No MMO communities except Grinding in EQ???

 

You must of been in diapers when MMO communities first started up. I won't fault you for that.

 

It simply makes no sense to focus on end game content until...wait for it...the rest of the game is done. You do end game stuff last, it's the logical order of things.

 

that right there - words right outta my mouth. That being said - it does feel like it has slightly less end-game than other games i've played at release recently, but not by much. I have no problem with it, enjoying the story on both sides atm. Have gotten into the story alot, and with the voice acting i even feel more "connected" (? i guess is the right word) to even the side quests.

[warpriestX]

I have read plenty of threads on here, criticizing end game complaints, such as economy, crew skills, hard mode flash points and operations. I support all of these complaints.

 

I have also read replies to those where people have said things such as "it's a newly launched game, there is no end game" or something along those lines.

 

Being a newly launched game in this era doesn't matter anymore. This isn't the release of WoW, when for the most part besides grinding EQ there was no real MMO community. It was acceptable for a game like WoW to not be fully developed in end game, but it is completely unacceptable for a game like SWTOR to have no developed end game.

 

The type of players out there now, after having WoW - and all the other MMO's that have completely failed - are very different than when WoW was first released.

 

A large portion of players these days plow through the content, probably faster than expected, and if there is a lot of buggy and non-functioning content at max level, all of those players are right to be upset.

 

Personally I hit max level a day or two after the actual launch, and already I find myself being completely bored. PvP is satisfying for awhile but after that, it only takes about 2 - 3 hours to clear normal and hard mode operations of EV and Palace, then there is nothing left. The end game isn't difficult, hard mode flashpoints are completely useless because so much gear is dropped by bosses in operations who are easier than bosses in flash points.

 

It's bioware's job to make sure that end game content is working, abundant, and finely tuned in terms of difficulty and the amount of time required to put in or there are going to be quite a few people not logging on anymore.

 

If bioware isn't quick to solve the end game issues, SWTOR will follow the same fate as many other promised MMO's, the most similar I can think of is Age of Conan, levels 1 - 20 were amazing and now.... well the game is free to play with an option to pay.

 

/end rant

 

You are wrong so it is not justifiable.

[swdrgn]

This game was designed for you to play a different faction and class, hence the legacy system and individual class storyline.

 

End game is not playing one character and doing all the content you can.

 

Unless you played every class and faction combo to 50 you have not reached end game yet. I know it's hard for people to grasp this concept but people this is 2012 not 1999 or 2004.

[Darkeus]

I hate this argument

 

MMOs shouldn't even have more than one Raid anymore. Just make one boss, with 500 levels of difficulty; then no one will ever really clear the content

 

Dude, haven't you quit yet?

[MBirdy]

No developed end game?

 

10 Raid bosses (roughley same as catacalysm)

 

A good number of Heroic Dungeons (same as catacalysm)

 

3 PvP Warzones, + 2 open world PvP areas (pretty good for a release regaurdless, though they need work)

 

Lots of little extras to find and grind.

 

Sorry, your entire post makes no sense, THERE IS AN ENDGAME, AND IT CONTAINS AS MUCH IF NOT MORE THAN CATACALYSM DID.

[Sealunar]

You are correct and I agree completely. I had a great time leveling, but I doubt I'll stick around.

[SySnootles]

This game was designed for you to play a different faction and class, hence the legacy system and individual class storyline.

 

End game is not playing one character and doing all the content you can.

 

Unless you played every class and faction combo to 50 you have not reached end game yet. I know it's hard for people to grasp this concept but people this is 2012 not 1999 or 2004.

 

I have to disagree with you on this, repeating 80% (arbitrary % i just made up) of the content with endless alts is not what i would say is bioware´s intention... after all its 2012 not 1999... where you had to grind the same mobs time and again to level up (welcome to everquest).

[Sturmlied]

This game was designed for you to play a different faction and class, hence the legacy system and individual class storyline.

 

End game is not playing one character and doing all the content you can.

 

Unless you played every class and faction combo to 50 you have not reached end game yet. I know it's hard for people to grasp this concept but people this is 2012 not 1999 or 2004.

 

I have to disagree.

 

If the designed the game to be played with ever class and faction that is imho a big design failure. Simply because it would be 8 time the same with a maybe 20% (imho even less) difference.

 

The leveling is not that fun! And this will not keep a lot of players in the game. It it TRUE end game content that is needed for that. And not only Raids!

[mrarnold]

I can understand both points, but I tend to agree that there needs to be more content.

 

If a company plans their busines model on how things were done years ago, as opposed to how their competition is doing it today, then will fail. If the goal is to have one of the most successful MMOs in the market, you have to look at the top dogs. There will not be very many "new" MMO players that come out just for this game, so its safe to assume that the vast majority of players will come from existing games.

 

Since the player base is coming from other games, their expectations will reflect the experience they just left. If they can log on at max level and do multipile raids, and endgame dungeons, then why would they be happy playing a game that doesn't allow them to do that?

 

If they can have a meaningful PVP experience with rewards and quick que times with semi balanced classes, why would they accept less in this game? That is the point we are trying to make when we say...It's 2012 MMOs are held to a different standard.

 

If people don't have enough renewable content at max level, what is stopping them from going back to their previous MMO? Just like what has happened to all recent MMOs. Sure you can say..."Then go play that game"...well that is what happens, then the communities and player size dies off.

 

Instead of that inevitable trend, it would've been nice for SWTOR to have seen that happening in those other games, been researching and reading other games forums, and come to the conclussion that players want a good amount of endgame content ready at launch.

[Mrshush]

I agree 100%

 

People need to stop acting like this is 2004. BioWare doesn't get a free pass

 

only took you over 24hrs. why did you change your sig?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Mrshush

[Valperion]

I have read plenty of threads on here, criticizing end game complaints, such as economy, crew skills, hard mode flash points and operations. I support all of these complaints.

 

I have also read replies to those where people have said things such as "it's a newly launched game, there is no end game" or something along those lines.

 

Being a newly launched game in this era doesn't matter anymore. This isn't the release of WoW, when for the most part besides grinding EQ there was no real MMO community. It was acceptable for a game like WoW to not be fully developed in end game, but it is completely unacceptable for a game like SWTOR to have no developed end game.

 

The type of players out there now, after having WoW - and all the other MMO's that have completely failed - are very different than when WoW was first released.

 

A large portion of players these days plow through the content, probably faster than expected, and if there is a lot of buggy and non-functioning content at max level, all of those players are right to be upset.

 

Personally I hit max level a day or two after the actual launch, and already I find myself being completely bored. PvP is satisfying for awhile but after that, it only takes about 2 - 3 hours to clear normal and hard mode operations of EV and Palace, then there is nothing left. The end game isn't difficult, hard mode flashpoints are completely useless because so much gear is dropped by bosses in operations who are easier than bosses in flash points.

 

It's bioware's job to make sure that end game content is working, abundant, and finely tuned in terms of difficulty and the amount of time required to put in or there are going to be quite a few people not logging on anymore.

 

If bioware isn't quick to solve the end game issues, SWTOR will follow the same fate as many other promised MMO's, the most similar I can think of is Age of Conan, levels 1 - 20 were amazing and now.... well the game is free to play with an option to pay.

 

/end rant

 

Welcome to the year 2012.

 

People expect more content than a game that was released 7 YEARS AGO.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Valperion

[Sanxxx]

The fact that they made a game where you could get to the mythical 'endgame' within a few days is their mistake.

 

Endgame is in reality more repetitive than the journey (Dailies anyone ?)

[Maeleena]

Complaining about end-game is NOT justifiable, because the money you initially paid for the game is just for the leveling process, and hardly any end-game content. If you want to do end-game, then you pay the monthly fee. If you don't think there is enough end-game for your liking, then you don't pay, but you also don't whine about it, because you ARE getting what you paid for.

[SySnootles]

The fact that they made a game where you could get to the mythical 'endgame' within a few days is their mistake.

 

Endgame is in reality more repetitive than the journey (Dailies anyone ?)

 

Few days? Been playing for a month and im not even 50 yet (close tho), but thats playing everyday several hours.

 

Most players arent even in their 40´s yet, according to bioware.

[Maeleena]

Few days? Been playing for a month and im not even 50 yet (close tho), but thats playing everyday several hours.

 

Most players arent even in their 40´s yet, according to bioware.

Yup. I just hit 40 last weekend (currently 42) and I am having a blast. I don't need to get to the end-game fast, because just like in every single other game (yes even WoW) the end-game sucks complete donkey because there is nothing else to do. Yay you run hard modes ad nauseum, do an OP once a week (the same op every week) and dailies.

 

Not my kind of fun. I myself will be rolling a republic char (am sith now) as soon as I hit 50 and level up again, because THAT is where the fun in SWTOR comes from, unlike in other games where both the leveling process and end game both suck ***. At least BW got one of them right, and they have the ability to improve the other.

[BCBull]

OP, I think your bought the wrong game. Max level in 1-2 days? Skip the entire story? This game was not made for you type.

 

In all honesty, I hope your type does leave this game, at minimum I hope BW never even thinks about catering to you type.

 

This may sound harsh, but I feel your kind is a serious threat to all current and future MMOs.

Edited January 12, 2012 by BCBull

[BCBull]

Just thought I'd rate this.

[Chuckskyline]

I think I am going to make an MMO..

 

That is exactly like Skyrim (open area/sandbox)

 

There are no levels other than you get "skills"

 

There is 1 massive world that takes you literally 3 hours of real time to cross. You get flying mounts at skill lvl 100, that costs 100000000000 gold.

 

And the whole point is to raid... at "lvl 1" you have your whole objective is to beat a boss with 100 other people...

 

In the next area.. "lvl 2" all your objective is to beat a boss.

 

All these boss drop 100 rare items for each class. Which is completely randomized.

 

It will take you 1 month per lvl.

 

This is what people want...everytime I see this...

 

Unlimited content.. Unlimited Raiding. No leveling. An open world that is absurd. Not cotent/story. Just raiding. Over and over and over again.

 

And still people would complain about it.