jimmybob Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This kind of thing reallllllly ticks me off. PvE means PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felioats Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I hope they have seen and are working on a solution for this. I like Rift's solution where there is an option in the settings that prevents you from even attacking another player intentionally. (to protect yourself from targeting mistakes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siorac Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 The red part is exactly where most forum goers in this topic fail. There understanding of reading Fails mostly, because they are blinded by there own point of view. I'll say it again and you can vision me saying it directly in your face, close up and Very very slowly so you can understand all of it. I DO NOT AGREE WITH PLAYERS TRICKING YOU INTO COMBAT! Shoudl they change it so that stealthed pvp flagged players cannot be targeted by aoe I guess so. However if I am standing there in plain sight, pvp flagged and you still use aoe around me. Thats your problem. Not mine. Well, I want to be able to use my AoE without worrying about PvP. Because, and here's the big secret, I rolled on a PvE server so that I won't have to do PvP. Also, I thought I could use all my abilities no matter what other players do at the same time. Why should others be able to FORCE me to change my playstyle, to not use all of my attacks if I want to avoid PvP on a PvE server? Surely you must see the fundamental problem here. This system is easily exploitable for griefing. Must be changed and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGriffith Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This is the way it works on pve servers. You used a Area of Effect attack and hit a pvp flagged enemy in the process. It wasn't the mob he attacked, no it was your attack hitting him. He tricked you, sure but in the end it is your fault. Simply should not have used a AOE. The way it works on pve servers, in every MMO btw, is that You cannot become a pvp flagged person if you do not set yourself to it. However there are exceptions to that rule. 1) Entering a PvP area, were you become automatically flagged 2) Right clicking your avatar and setting the PvP flag on yourself. 3) Attacking an Enemy player that is PvP flagged. You fall in catagory 3. Though luck. And most respondants here agree that option 3 should not exist on a PvE server. Unless Bioware really wants to create open world PvP even on their PvE servers. In which case I would like to know that for sure as it would have affected my decision to buy this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloro Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sorry this happened to you but it teaches you a valuable lesson, don't use aoe attacks when standing around a PVP marked player of the opposite faction or that attack will hit them and instantly mark you for PVP. This is intended and by no means a exploit or griefing. Be aware of your surroundings and choose the appropriate attacks to not get marked. Come on now. Let's be honest. It's very obviously an exploit, and very obviously being used to grief people. Why is it an exploit? Because it's forcing people who do not wish to take part in PvP to become PvP flagged. It's taking away players' choice about how they play the game. This game has PvE servers for a reason; forcing someone else to PvP AGAINST THEIR WILL is an exploit, full stop. How is it griefing? The whole point of this little endeavor is to kill a PvE player who didn't want to flag for PvP. That's a textbook example of griefing, really: one player is getting enjoyment from causing frustration for another player. The whole purpose of this exploit is to do something undesired and unexpected to the victim, with the explicit intention of lowering their enjoyment of the game. That's griefing. There's no way around it. Finally, and most importantly, quite a few people have pointed out that stealth exists in this game. There is literally no way for even the most alert player to avoid being flagged in this way by a stealthed player. Moreover, this game is designed with the expectation that we'll fight groups of foes regularly. All classes have some AoEs for precisely this purpose. It's not necessarily possible to continue playing the game while avoiding all AoEs, and it's certainly not desirable. So "don't use your AoEs" isn't a solution at all. What am I to do if some bored lvl 50 wants to flag himself and follow me around, standing in the middle of every group of foes? He doesn't have to be stealthed, to have an affect on me; if he just stands there, I can't attack without probably dying. I can't play the game the way I want to in this case. Is the burden on me to avoid him? I should, what, just stop playing? Don't use my AoEs and face the very real possibility that I can't continue with my quests as a result? Yeah, I don't think so. Those "solutions" are proposed solely by people who want to see the griefing continue. So where does this leave us? There's an exploit being used to grief people, so the solution is simple: prevent the exploit. Someone who is not PvP flagged shouldn't be able to attack someone who is. It's that simple. If you want to be able to PvP on a PvE server, then set your flag first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilCanuck Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Bottom line is that the players who do this want to kill players but don't have the attachments to roll on a PvP server. Take away the auto-flag and leave PvP to the PvPers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katharis Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'd like to give a shout out to the level 50 Imp on Shii-Cho who *didn't* take advantage of my level 39 Smuggler's blunder into auto-flag territory last night. My Smuggler was on Hoth, cruising along on her speeder, trying to get to a mission when suddenly "TURN BACK NAO OR SUFFER THE PVP!" pops up and a countdown starts. "10 Seconds Until Gankage! 9 Seconds Until Gankage!" And so on. Those might not be the exact words that were used. Anyway. Before my Smuggler can retreat she's attacked by NPCs and knocked off the speeder - and as a result doesn't get out of the (queue Kenny Loggins) Danger Zone in time. Oh noes! Flagged for Gankage! Hide! There's a cliff nearby, so I move her over there, thinking maybe she can work her way down the cliff instead of backtracking through an open area, where she would be at the mercy of any high level Imp that happened along. Then I see him... A high level Imp. A level 50 Sith type Imp, on a speeder, heading for the Imp base into which my Smuggler had very nearly ridden. He's not flagged for PVP, but my Smuggler is and there's nothing I can do about it. And then he stops. And slowly turns. And I know my Flagged for Gankage Smuggler has been spotted and is about to undergo... DUN DUN DUNNNN!!!! - Maximum Gankage. I resolve to have my Smuggler jump off the cliff - better death from the sudden stop at the bottom than the heartbreak of... DUN DUN DUNNNN!!!! - Maximum Gankage. And then... The Imp turns around and speeds on into the base. Whew! So, /salute the unknown Imp player who didn't take advantage of my woopsie. I had my Smuggler go ahead and jump - splat! - and when she rezzed she was nearer to where I was trying to get to, but still Flagged for Gankage. I logged out for a few, but when I logged back in she was *still* Flagged for Gankage. So I had her just stand there at the rez point until the Flagged for Gankage timer ran out. Query: why does it take so long to get unflagged even if you move your Flagged for Gankage character into a No Ganking Zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsetes Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I agree - can we somehow remove the autoflagging on ability "thing" on PvE servers? Hell, I just hate partying with someone with their PvP flag on because the moment I go to refresh my "whole party buff" on myself, I'LL be flagged for PvP myself! And I don't want to be that guy that says "You need to turn off your flag to play with us!" or anything like that - I shouldn't rain on their parade, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGriffith Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 It is not a bug, it is working as intended. Again, a pve server does not mean it is free from pvp. It means you cannot be attacked at anytime. Which is working as intended. In 99% of the cases you can quest fully without worry. If I play on a pve server (which I do) and I decide to pvp I should be able to do that all over the world. Not just the designated zones or instances. That is what the pvp flagging option is for. If I flag myself. Players can attack me if they so desire. Those that are unflagged, I can still not attack. However if they attack me, whether this is intentional or not, is there problem. Not mine. Why should my play style differ cuz you dont want to be attacked or responsible for your own actions? It is working as intended. Simple as that. btw, some players will do it to grief but those are by far the minority. Just deal with it and move on. Hypocrisy can generally be easiest exposed by inverting the subject. How about if a PvE player on a PvP server can knock the PvP flag off a player by tricking them into attacking or buffing? You probably would not be thrilled by such a game design would you? In your replies you show that you are 1- Demanding open world PvP on an PvE server, never mind that there are servers dedicated to that playstyle and they ain't the PvE servers. 2- Insisting that you should not be required to alter the way you choose to play, but are happy to force your playstyle on others and see nothing wrong with forcing them to alter their playstyle to suit you. 3- Coming across as a condescending *&%$* by tricking others into attacking you and then deciding whether or not -they- meant it. The attitude aside, for every condescending player like you there are several who feel the need to work out their frustrations (or general feeling of inferiority) on unsuspecting players who have neither the intention to PvP nor the ability to fight back. So, don't act surprised or try to come across as the injured party when people call you out on your hypocracy. --- Ideally there should not be the possibility of PvP on a PvE server at all (griefers will be griefers of course but the less opportunity they are given and the less room for rule lawyering the easier time Bioware has to police them). However, seeing how enamored the developers are with PvP the next best solution is making it absolutely impossible to accidentally get flagged for PvP when you are on a PvE server (and by making it involuntary on a PvP server). This means making buffing, healing and damaging impossible between players unless they both have the same PvP status. And if the PvPers find too few fellow PvPers to play with on a PvE server they should take the hint and relocate to a server where the players voluntarily choose that playstyle for themselves and expect it from others. I mean, it is not like half the servers is not marked for PvP. There really is no need to force the playstyle on the other half of the servers too where the players by the very choice they made for those servers indicated they are not interested in the PvP playstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Nox Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 no. 5chars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Nox Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 1- Demanding open world PvP on an PvE server, never mind that there are servers dedicated to that playstyle and they ain't the PvE servers. is WoW to blame for this ignorance? there's a difference between consentual world pvp, and lowbie non-consentual ganking. Why should the people who want the former have to put up with the latter? The ruleset is fine, stop being bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm not sure they're even capable of fixing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiachsidhe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Its not a glitch neither a bug. Its Intended the way it is. Which does not excuse an idea, or decision, from being a bad one that can be rectified or changed. If you, or anyone else sees fit to defend such a system, then you are admitting to being a piss poor player, and/or a pathetic human being who needs to grief, to accomplish something in a game. Take your pick. Edited January 23, 2012 by Fiachsidhe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poobin Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 PvP should never be forced on someone on a PvE server period! This looks a lot like a bug and is being exploited, BW should fix this as a high priority bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'd like to give a shout out to the level 50 Imp on Shii-Cho who *didn't* take advantage of my level 39 Smuggler's blunder into auto-flag territory last night. My Smuggler was on Hoth, cruising along on her speeder, trying to get to a mission when suddenly "TURN BACK NAO OR SUFFER THE PVP!" pops up and a countdown starts. "10 Seconds Until Gankage! 9 Seconds Until Gankage!" And so on. Those might not be the exact words that were used. Anyway. Before my Smuggler can retreat she's attacked by NPCs and knocked off the speeder - and as a result doesn't get out of the (queue Kenny Loggins) Danger Zone in time. Oh noes! Flagged for Gankage! Hide! There's a cliff nearby, so I move her over there, thinking maybe she can work her way down the cliff instead of backtracking through an open area, where she would be at the mercy of any high level Imp that happened along. Then I see him... A high level Imp. A level 50 Sith type Imp, on a speeder, heading for the Imp base into which my Smuggler had very nearly ridden. He's not flagged for PVP, but my Smuggler is and there's nothing I can do about it. And then he stops. And slowly turns. And I know my Flagged for Gankage Smuggler has been spotted and is about to undergo... DUN DUN DUNNNN!!!! - Maximum Gankage. I resolve to have my Smuggler jump off the cliff - better death from the sudden stop at the bottom than the heartbreak of... DUN DUN DUNNNN!!!! - Maximum Gankage. And then... The Imp turns around and speeds on into the base. Whew! So, /salute the unknown Imp player who didn't take advantage of my woopsie. I had my Smuggler go ahead and jump - splat! - and when she rezzed she was nearer to where I was trying to get to, but still Flagged for Gankage. I logged out for a few, but when I logged back in she was *still* Flagged for Gankage. So I had her just stand there at the rez point until the Flagged for Gankage timer ran out. Query: why does it take so long to get unflagged even if you move your Flagged for Gankage character into a No Ganking Zone? Lol nice post. And SWTOR's PVP flagged stuff is the stupidest thing since snuggies. So, I particpated in pvp, yay me! Now I have to stand in a base for 5 minutes just to get unflagged? You mean I can't, like, quest and THEN it goes off? That's cute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Do they get Valor or anything else for this? If so, then it fits every definition of an exploit that I've ever seen. If not, then it is clearly griefing. Either way, there are ways to prevent it that have been effective in other games and the devs need to get on it or it will cost them players and money. Scorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarnieTsk Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Sorry I disagree. But No, it does not need to be changed. How 'bout if they added an ability whereby unflagged PVE players can somehow cause you to become unflagged right in the middle of a PVP fight when you use certain abilities and you become completely unable to hit your opponent, against your will? AND you'll be unable to pvp for at least 5 minutes. I mean, come on, fair's fair right? You can completely disrupt our play time but we can't disrupt yours? /rollseyes Edited January 24, 2012 by VarnieTsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGriffith Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 is WoW to blame for this ignorance? there's a difference between consentual world pvp, and lowbie non-consentual ganking. Why should the people who want the former have to put up with the latter? The ruleset is fine, stop being bad. Sorry to disappoint you but I never played World of Warcraft. And also, I would recommend you reread what I wrote AND the post(s) that I responded to. It might help you type a reply that makes more sense. But on the off chance that you are unwilling to do so, here is the summary: Syrellaris (and you too by your defense of the current system) insist that he should have the right to trick another player into getting PvP flagged (or to take advantage of it when it happens, or not, as he feels like at that moment). Anywhere in the world and at any time. Now, I don't think it is that much of a stretch to call demanding to be able to PvP at any place and time a demand for open world PvP (with the only difference being that on a PvP server that is the default while on a PvE server a player first has to be tricked into flagging herself). So please dazzle us with your vast encyclopedic knowledge of game sytems and game design and explain why effectively demanding to be able to PvP at any place and time of your choosing is not a demand for open world PvP even on PvE servers. Or why it is perfectly fine for a PvPer to be able to force an PvE player to become PvP flagged. But don't be surprised if the players here in this discussion who deliberately chose a PvE server because they don't want to have anything to do with PvP will consider Syrelaris and you a (potential) griefer and a bit of a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grammarye Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) It's not really PvP when a 32 fights a 50 is it? In much the same way it's not really a battle if one side is equipped with modern weapons and the other side has sharpened fruit. I can really see the 'gf' or 'gg' after that one, eh? However, I'm not enormously surprised that there are those who have to have totally one-sided impossible-to-lose fights in order to feel better about themselves. A shame that such people bring the playstyle into disrepute. Those that actually play PvP to its full potential are on the PvP servers... Then again I've always thought open PvP on a PvE server (and thus flagging generally) when you have actual PvP servers available is catering to the wrong crowd. Warzones etc. not included. Just not needed; it causes far more problems for no gain. Picking & choosing one's opponents used to be about intelligence & skill, not hiding behind silly AoE tricks. Edited January 24, 2012 by Grammarye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal-N Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have to agree that the idea of having a PvE server which is not actually PvE is very much broken. Much like when you heal someone on Alderaan who is on your faction but standing in a contested zone you are suddenly attack able. The same with Tatooine and the other worlds. This even happens on teams which is insane since buffs do not appear to trigger the PvP flag yet healing does. PvE servers should only allow PvP inside of warzones were it is totally optional. Having PvP rules applied to the open world simply causes problems, as with the AoE issue mentioned above. Don't call it a PvE server when it has PvP rules applied to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarnieTsk Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's not really PvP when a 32 fights a 50 is it? In much the same way it's not really a battle if one side is equipped with modern weapons and the other side has sharpened fruit. I can really see the 'gf' or 'gg' after that one, eh? However, I'm not enormously surprised that there are those who have to have totally one-sided impossible-to-lose fights in order to feel better about themselves. A shame that such people bring the playstyle into disrepute. Those that actually play PvP to its full potential are on the PvP servers... Then again I've always thought open PvP on a PvE server (and thus flagging generally) when you have actual PvP servers available is catering to the wrong crowd. Warzones etc. not included. Just not needed; it causes far more problems for no gain. Picking & choosing one's opponents used to be about intelligence & skill, not hiding behind silly AoE tricks. You just reminded me of a thought I had the other day about these kind of people. I agree with you that the majority of pvp griefers are not looking for, or in some cases just not capable of, any kind or real pvp that might actually present a challenge. So my idea, because I saw some people suggest that these people be banned. I say don't ban them from the game. Ban them from pve servers. Make them re-roll on a pvp server if they want to play at all. No character transfer. Let them start fresh on a pvp server and experience what they've been attempting to dish out. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Ideally there should not be the possibility of PvP on a PvE server at all (griefers will be griefers of course but the less opportunity they are given and the less room for rule lawyering the easier time Bioware has to police them). No, that's not the ideal situation. The purely pve only players are only a part of the pve server population, and I highly suspect that they're a fairly small minority, and that the vast majority of the players on PVE servers prefer to also have consensual only pvp (warzone, FFA flagged areas and duels) Edited January 24, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enako Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 this is a problem that needs fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadokaoh Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 arise from your grave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarnieTsk Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 You just got tricked into flagging. Not a big deal. Ok, here's one for ya. Read carefully and then tell me how you would react to this scenario. 1) Let's say that you're a pvper but you can't hit anyone at any time without having to go through a 5 minute process to flag yourself. 2) Now, add to that, there are numerous game mechanics that keep unflagging you, such as certain areas you accidentally enter and can't back out fast enough. 3) Then, add to that, other players have the ability to grief-unflag you and you have to go through the 5 minute process again, and they're doing it quite often. Oh, and no logging out or doing anything else for those 5 minutes. You have to sit somwhere and do nothing. 4) You have to alter your game play in a constant effort to remain flagged so that you can play your preferred play style. How would you feel about the game then? And we could just say to you "You just got tricked into UN-flagging. Not a big deal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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