Bobus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 On paper it sounds like the tree that should do the most damage, it has some dots and it has some hard hitting moves, I leveled from 1 to 40 in my immortal spec and just kinda feel like doing damage for a little while, its getting tougher to solo since things arnt dying fast enough and vette pulls off me like the goddess of agro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praxsis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I had the same problem, mobs didn't go down faster enough, even with Quinn as a healer, i found i was dying almost every encounter. I changed back to immortal, and wont go back to vengeance anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvamAkorahil Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 On paper it sounds like the tree that should do the most damage, it has some dots and it has some hard hitting moves, I leveled from 1 to 40 in my immortal spec and just kinda feel like doing damage for a little while, its getting tougher to solo since things arnt dying fast enough and vette pulls off me like the goddess of agro you might want to use quinn, + you might want good gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonoftw Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 With immortal spec you will find when leveling that you actually won't need quinn at all.. Use veete and let her nuke them all down while tanking. Quinn is only good as a dps spec. And if you are going to level as DPS, Go rage and 1shot many of the mobs with smash. Vengeance is weak because of the small dots that are added into the spec. But it still does roughly the same dps is rage single target at endgame, If not a little more if you optimize the rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadspectre Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Vengance from 10-50. Used Vette the entire time cause I'm lazy. Geared her like crap. Died some but not awfully alot. Make sure your using Ravage everytime it's up as your Impale and Shatter reset it and if its a weak mob they are stunned during it. For elite fights I let Vette take aggro first and get some damage in before taunting it off her. Use Choke and Push as well and don't forget about Pommel Strike and Savage Kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NarShaddaBum Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I leveled 10-50 as Veng, I've done several Hard Mode FPs and the Rancor boss Op as this spec. I feel like I am doing acceptable dps, however without some form of damage meters I really can't say for sure. I don't know that I would say there's anything *wrong* with Veng, but the main difficulty with the spec is that you have to be smart about using Ravage. As our hardest hitting ability, you want to use it whenever you can, however it is not feasible to use in movement-heavy fights or when your enemy is being tossed around via some other class' knockback abilities. When soloing, multi-mob pulls can require a little thought/strategy since we haven't much in the way of reliable crowd control or strong area effect damage, but they are still easily doable. I guess the moral of the story is that Veng isn't really broken, but it takes a skilled player to really make full use of the spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeXeLz Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you look at the other classes, all of them have some form of increasing your critical damage and chance. Vengeance Juggernauts do not. Their dots are subpar and so are their critical damage. I'm PvPing and PvEing in rage spec, and it works wonders. I still feel like my dps is not on the same level as a merc or a sniper, but its good enough to drop bosses in hardmodes before enrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) No hard CC, sub-par damage output, etc. There's a lot of problems with vengeance. Hell, even Pommel Strike has a 15 second longer cooldown than Eviscerate (the operative equivalent ability). Not to mention the fact that the main mechanic of the spec is resetting the cooldown on a 3-second channel on a melee class, which is just a poor design choice. Towards the end of my playing my Jugg, I would intentionally clip off the last tick of the channel, just because I hate the ability so much. It might be a slight dps loss to play that way, but I really didn't care, I hate Ravage. Rerolled operative and never looked back. I leveled 10-50 as Veng, I've done several Hard Mode FPs and the Rancor boss Op as this spec. I feel like I am doing acceptable dps, however without some form of damage meters I really can't say for sure. I don't know that I would say there's anything *wrong* with Veng, but the main difficulty with the spec is that you have to be smart about using Ravage. As our hardest hitting ability, you want to use it whenever you can, however it is not feasible to use in movement-heavy fights or when your enemy is being tossed around via some other class' knockback abilities. When soloing, multi-mob pulls can require a little thought/strategy since we haven't much in the way of reliable crowd control or strong area effect damage, but they are still easily doable. I guess the moral of the story is that Veng isn't really broken, but it takes a skilled player to really make full use of the spec. Ravage may be our hardest-hitting ability in total, but the DPET is terrible. Besides, Ravage really only does good damage when the last tick crits. The ability is terrible, and Rampage needs to be redesigned, as I recommended in another thread that I'm tired of bumping. And yes, vengeance is broken. The thing required to make full use of the spec is not skill. It's tolerance. Edited January 10, 2012 by steinsgate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanGand Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i've switched from immortal to vengeance, and with Jaessa at lvl 50 I solo illum quests twice as fast as I do as immortal. You guys either are not high enough or are doing things wrong. Even though I will agree that some fights, are really close because of the lack of actual stuns as vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i've switched from immortal to vengeance, and with Jaessa at lvl 50 I solo illum quests twice as fast as I do as immortal. You guys either are not high enough or are doing things wrong. Even though I will agree that some fights, are really close because of the lack of actual stuns as vengeance. You are either exaggerating your claims or not giving us the whole picture. You said you used Jaesa as vengeance, which companion did you use as immortal? Are you still using your full tank gear? And yes, Vengeance needs a hard CC. There's no reason for us to not have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarzwald Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Worthless Skills and the rage cost of Shatter makes Vengeance unviable The dots that are added after force scream and impale are a joke and really doesn't add much overall damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerumble Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Vengeance suffers from nasty ability bloat and the game does NOT value sustained dps very much, PvP and PvE alike. It's perfectly viable if you can manage 10 dps abilities into your rotation.. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Vengeance suffers from nasty ability bloat and the game does NOT value sustained dps very much, PvP and PvE alike. It's perfectly viable if you can manage 10 dps abilities into your rotation.. good luck. Thissssssss. gosh darn. (hahahaha the word filter changed that.) Like I said a while back, the last thing I was thinking when I got Vicious Throw was "Damn, I could really use ANOTHER ability to throw in here." It's just annoying. Ravage eating two GCDs doesn't help. Worthless Skills and the rage cost of Shatter makes Vengeance unviable Yeah, Shatter could be brought down to four rage (before Shien form reduction) and would be a nice change. The problem would still be, though, that with Ravage being dumb and channeled, we'd be GCD locked AND rage capped. Without Ravage in there, we could be throwing in some vicious slashes when high rage happens. Edited January 10, 2012 by steinsgate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthHarlem Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) My jugg is level 44 and I can smoke mobs with 25k hits in a matter of seconds. I'm also specced vengeance. Not sure why it works for me. Sounds like a lot of paper experts in this thread. I use Shatter a lot and have utterly no problem with it. Edited January 10, 2012 by DarthHarlem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My jugg is level 44 and I can smoke mobs with 25k hits in a matter of seconds. I'm also specced vengeance. Not sure why it works for me. Sounds like a lot of paper experts in this thread. I use Shatter a lot and have utterly no problem with it. I don't think any class in this game is currently capable of a 25k hit or crit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephorai Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Did he just say 25k hits *facepalm* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthHarlem Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't think any class in this game is currently capable of a 25k hit or crit. Haha no. I'm not saying I do it in one hit. Combined hits from several moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatlos Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Vengeance suffers from nasty ability bloat and the game does NOT value sustained dps very much, PvP and PvE alike. It's perfectly viable if you can manage 10 dps abilities into your rotation.. good luck. So you're saying you have to be awake to play vengeance!? Blasphemy!! Yes, the abilities are expensive, but shien form refunds rage when using rage-consuming abilities lest we forget. If you know how to MANAGE rage rather than mindlessly dumping it, you can easily dish out about 10k bursts (or even higher) in pvp. Not all one attack, mind you. You have to be conscious and rotate attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) So you're saying you have to be awake to play vengeance!? Blasphemy!! Ugh. Just...just ugh. This isn't about having to be awake. I know you're trying to be cute, but seriously. This is about having too large of a skill set. I mean, the vengeance rotation makes Warlocks look like Arcane Mages. Yes, the abilities are expensive, but shien form refunds rage when using rage-consuming abilities lest we forget. If you know how to MANAGE rage rather than mindlessly dumping it, you can easily dish out about 10k bursts (or even higher) in pvp. Not all one attack, mind you. You have to be conscious and rotate attacks. Vengeance needs 12 rage for a full Shatter > Scream > Impale combo. Last I checked, that's a full bar. No other class needs a full resource bar to get off one combo. Outside of a saber throw > charge > enrage combo, it's no simple task to get a full rage bar in pvp with all the tools that every other class has to keep us away from them. Edited January 10, 2012 by steinsgate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'd play Vengeance if I could use Backhand and/or Force Grip with it. Without those stuns, I feel like I'm at a significant disadvantage in PvP and while solo'ing heroic quests compared to Immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'd play Vengeance if I could use Backhand and/or Force Grip with it. Without those stuns, I feel like I'm at a significant disadvantage in PvP and while solo'ing heroic quests compared to Immortal. Allowing Force Scream to stun strong mobs and players, perhaps as a high-tier vengeance talent, would be a nice alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatlos Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Ugh. Vengeance needs 12 rage for a full Shatter > Scream > Impale combo. Last I checked, that's a full bar. No other class needs a full resource bar to get off one combo. Outside of a saber throw > charge > enrage combo, it's no simple task to get a full rage bar in pvp with all the tools that every other class has to keep us away from them. Shien form refunds 1 rage for each attack that costs rage. So effectively, Vengeance needs 10 rage for a full Shatter > Scream > Impale combo. To get that rage, try Saber Throw-Charge-SUNDER (you can't use Shatter without sunder) and there ya go, 9 rage straight off. On top of that, since you're probably going to be getting attacked from there, you'll get that last point of rage you need. If ya don't, use Smash for some halfway decent damage and 1 extra rage point. This leaves Enrage available for your next round if you don't charge to the next opponent, then SUNDER, and you got another combo set up. Yeah, it's more DIFFICULT to play, but that doesn't make it a bad class. In fact, I tend to have some excess rage using this method (not sure how, but it works) EDIT: Almost forgot Battle Cry. Make that 7 rage for the first combo. Edited January 11, 2012 by Anatlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Shien form refunds 1 rage for each attack that costs rage. So effectively, Vengeance needs 10 rage for a full Shatter > Scream > Impale combo. To get that rage, try Saber Throw-Charge-SUNDER (you can't use Shatter without sunder) and there ya go, 9 rage straight off. On top of that, since you're probably going to be getting attacked from there, you'll get that last point of rage you need. If ya don't, use Smash for some halfway decent damage and 1 extra rage point. This leaves Enrage available for your next round if you don't charge to the next opponent, then SUNDER, and you got another combo set up. Yeah, it's more DIFFICULT to play, but that doesn't make it a bad class. In fact, I tend to have some excess rage using this method (not sure how, but it works) EDIT: Almost forgot Battle Cry. Make that 7 rage for the first combo. K, so use all those cooldowns to get one combo. How often can you do that? Now ask how often other classes can do even more damage with their own combos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatlos Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) K, so use all those cooldowns to get one combo. How often can you do that? Now ask how often other classes can do even more damage with their own combos. 7 rage for the first one, leaves you with about 3 left over.... then enrage again, do a second one... all the while accumulating rage through Sunder, Force Choke, push-another charge... quite a few, actually. You can theory-craft this crap all day if you want, but I've done it. It works. Trust me. Warriors have a build-up mechanic for their resource, unlike all of the other classes. Even BH's heat is technically a draining bar, it just goes in the opposite direction. Now, I've never played a Marauder, but do they never have to use their rage-building abilities? I find that kinda hard to believe Edited January 11, 2012 by Anatlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) 7 rage for the first one, leaves you with about 3 left over.... then enrage again, do a second one... all the while accumulating rage through Sunder, Force Choke, push-another charge... quite a few, actually. You can theory-craft this crap all day if you want, but I've done it. It works. Trust me. Warriors have a build-up mechanic for their resource, unlike all of the other classes. Even BH's heat is technically a draining bar, it just goes in the opposite direction. Now, I've never played a Marauder, but do they never have to use their rage-building abilities? I find that kinda hard to believe So your plan is to have near 100% uptime on your target in a world where every class has more tools to get away form us than we have to get to them? But I have no question about it working. On terrible players. Good players are another story altogether. Edited January 11, 2012 by steinsgate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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