So what IS wrong with vengance?

[Anatlos]

So your plan is to have near 100% uptime on your target in a world where every class has more tools to get away form us than we have to get to them?

 

But I have no question about it working. On terrible players. Good players are another story altogether.

 

As a melee class, this is going to happen. It's just the nature of the beast. You might not have more tools to get to the range guys than they have to get away, but that is going to happen. It's how they give them a chance.

 

Either way, the player behind the desk is always gonna be a major factor. I'm admittedly not the best juggernaut in the whole wide world, but I still come out on top more often than not. Either way, you've lost, so stop grabbing straws with the generic comebacks.

[steinsgate]

As a melee class, this is going to happen. It's just the nature of the beast. You might not have more tools to get to the range guys than they have to get away, but that is going to happen. It's how they give them a chance.

 

Either way, the player behind the desk is always gonna be a major factor. I'm admittedly not the best juggernaut in the whole wide world, but I still come out on top more often than not. Either way, you've lost, so stop grabbing straws with the generic comebacks.

 

I'm curious as to how you've come to the conclusion that continuing to make legitimate counters to your arguments constitutes both "losing" and "grasping straws."

[Anatlos]

I'm curious as to how you've come to the conclusion that continuing to make legitimate counters to your arguments constitutes both "losing" and "grasping straws."

 

Actually, you've been the one making the attacks, and I've countered each one. GG nub, I'm out

[spne]

So, the guy rerrolled to the new FOTM (Operative) and you guys are taking it seriously ?

 

There is NOTHING wrong with Vengeance just as there is nothing wrong with Warriors. Even Marauders. We just need more player skill and gear than some other classes.

 

I do just fine with Vengeance since lvl 10, using Vette and Jaesa as companions. I only die during bad pulls or when i screw things up.

 

The only thing i'd change would be the DOTS in Impale / Force Scream, they should scale better with gear IMO.

[steinsgate]

Actually, you've been the one making the attacks, and I've countered each one. GG nub, I'm out

 

hahahahahaha

 

So, the guy rerrolled to the new FOTM (Operative) and you guys are taking it seriously ?

 

There is NOTHING wrong with Vengeance just as there is nothing wrong with Warriors. Even Marauders. We just need more player skill and gear than some other classes.

 

I do just fine with Vengeance since lvl 10, using Vette and Jaesa as companions. I only die during bad pulls or when i screw things up.

 

The only thing i'd change would be the DOTS in Impale / Force Scream, they should scale better with gear IMO.

 

 

The choice makes sense. Someone wants to play a good, fun, strong melee dps and an Operative is a great choice. I'm 39 on my operative, leveling as Medicine spec, and it's faster and easier than my warrior was.

 

There IS something wrong with the warrior class, or else the devs wouldn't have said we were in line for buffs/reworking.

Edited January 11, 2012 by steinsgate

[spne]

The choice makes sense. Someone wants to play a good, fun, strong melee dps and an Operative is a great choice. I'm 39 on my operative, leveling as Medicine spec, and it's faster and easier than my warrior was.

 

There IS something wrong with the warrior class, or else the devs wouldn't have said we were in line for buffs/reworking.

 

Devs are just catering to the masses as usual.

We need some mobility changes but that's all. Our damage and survival capabilities are ok.

[steinsgate]

Devs are just catering to the masses as usual.

We need some mobility changes but that's all. Our damage and survival capabilities are ok.

 

The masses have a point. Besides, this was said during the closing end of the beta, not really when the "masses" were involved much in the game.

[Quor]

Honestly, let them buff Vengeance. It's just going to let me destroy more face in pvp.

 

Hell, the advertised Knight/Warrior buffs (push resetting Charge/Leap, higher survivability in pvp and pve) already have me feeling a little giddy. I can slog through 3-4 Champ-geared players in Huttball, from the time I pick up the ball until the time I score, with just a single healer keeping me up. And it's not just that the healer is good, or they're not disrupting the healer, it's that I gear myself equally for defense and offense, and I know how to rotate my defensive CD's so I've always got a buffer of some kind going (clever use of LoS helps too). As it stands now I can run about 35 seconds of defensive cooldowns continuously, or else pop them all at once to make myself damn near unkillable. I shudder to think how unkillable I would be if I went Immortal, but I just can't leave Shatter and Impale behind.

 

My only real problem is the unreliability of Rampage. Sometimes it procs Ravage asap, and sometimes you'll use 4-6 Impale/Shatter combinations and the damn CD still won't reset. Make that something a little more reliable, and maybe buff Ravage itself via a deep Vengy talent (Savagery affecting Ravage would be a good start, and/or Rampage increasing the crit damage bonus of key skills such as Ravage, Impale, Shatter and Scream).

 

So really, bring the buffs on I say. Life will be that much more awesome for me.

[Schneidend]

Ugh.

 

Just...just ugh.

 

This isn't about having to be awake. I know you're trying to be cute, but seriously. This is about having too large of a skill set. I mean, the vengeance rotation makes Warlocks look like Arcane Mages.

 

 

 

Vengeance needs 12 rage for a full Shatter > Scream > Impale combo. Last I checked, that's a full bar. No other class needs a full resource bar to get off one combo. Outside of a saber throw > charge > enrage combo, it's no simple task to get a full rage bar in pvp with all the tools that every other class has to keep us away from them.

 

Level 43, Battle Cry 3/3 in the Immortal tree.

 

Saber Throw +3; 3 Rage

Force Charge +3; 6 Rage

Sunder +2 (or +3 if talented); 8-9 Rage

Shatter -5, +1 Shien; 4-5 Rage

Force Scream Free; 4-5 Rage

Impale -4, +1 Shien; 1-2 Rage

 

I usually throw in an extra Sunder after Force Scream if my opponent isn't trying to beat feet, and of course unleash the fury with Ravage after Impale if the opportunity is there.

[Quor]

Level 43, Battle Cry 3/3 in the Immortal tree.

 

Saber Throw +3; 3 Rage

Force Charge +3; 6 Rage

Sunder +2 (or +3 if talented); 8-9 Rage

Shatter -5, +1 Shien; 4-5 Rage

Force Scream Free; 4-5 Rage

Impale -4, +1 Shien; 1-2 Rage

 

I usually throw in an extra Sunder after Force Scream if my opponent isn't trying to beat feet, and of course unleash the fury with Ravage after Impale if the opportunity is there.

 

It's worth noting that if you're in Shien form, a Battle Cry Scream actually GIVES you one rage. Smash does the same thing (since as a deep Vengy you will, of course, be specced into Ruin for the free Smash).

 

With +1 rage on Sunder and using it every time it's available, I find myself using Assault maybe once every 15-20 globals thanks to +1 rage from Smash and the random bits of damage that will go around proccing the +1 rage on Shien form.

[BobSassafrass]

I am in complete agreement that dmg output on vengeance is low. Try and 1v1 a geared powertech and you will see they can do very decent dmg on top of great survivability. I think a talent that would reduce ravage from 3s to 2s or make it stun (like marauders get) would help a lot.

 

One thing I cannot figure out is why the hell they took away force pull in beta. Not only do jedi and sith NPC's have this ability still but powertechs have it and it's godly.

[Shendaar]

For a melee character, DPS is directly affected by how mobile the class is. Bioware may not intend to directly increase the damage of the abilities of the Sith Warrior, but keep in mind that any changes that increases the mobility of the class will have a direct impact on your potential DPS in a fight. The better equipped you are at dealing with all the CC, the more damage you can put out.

[JamieKirby]

Devs are just catering to the masses as usual.

We need some mobility changes but that's all. Our damage and survival capabilities are ok.

 

Just like they did with slicing.

 

Anyway, i have constant trouble with my guardian, using the similar tree to your Vengeance and being forced to either spec as a tank and use a dps companion or spec as dps and use a healing companion is not really what bioware promised, though what they have promised isn't what we got so.......i would prefer being able to level up with no issues, with any companion i want.

 

It just seems like to do well, i HAVE to spec as a tank and bring along a dps companion or spec dps and bring a healer along and not really a good choice.

 

I am glad that they are working on it, i just hope they do it right so that i don't end up with 50% health lost from fighting a group of normals when my trooper and smuggler with exact same level gear and end up with little to no health loss.

[Sevvy]

Seems as if the 31-point talent for Vengeance, Shatter, should work differently. A 5 rage DoT seems kind of bad. I don't know, I've never gotten a Jugg to 50. But it just seems like it costs too much, and the synergy of that ability with the rest of the tree is lacking.

 

That's why I'd never go full vengeance. It should be an ability that hits hard and helps the burst of the class. I think that tree needs some tweaking.

 

I played a Jugg twice in beta into the 40s. I just never got a chance to get to 50 because I didn't want to grind like crazy when it didn't count.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Sevvy

[hurja]

i think ravage should be usable while moving as vengeance. it seems to be built as our main nuke ability with talents for 2 separate skills to reset its cooldown but immobile melee dps is just about as bad as it sounds.

[Calagari]

For my views please see: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=140673

Its a bit long to rewrite here

[MumbaUmba]

Seems as if the 31-point talent for Vengeance, Shatter, should work differently. A 5 rage DoT seems kind of bad. I don't know, I've never gotten a Jugg to 50. But it just seems like it costs too much, and the synergy of that ability with the rest of the tree is lacking.

 

That's why I'd never go full vengeance. It should be an ability that hits hard and helps the burst of the class. I think that tree needs some tweaking.

 

I played a Jugg twice in beta into the 40s. I just never got a chance to get to 50 because I didn't want to grind like crazy when it didn't count.

 

Well from someone who actually uses Shatter it's rather good. Though I wouldn't mind if it's cost is dropped by 1.

 

The great thing about Shatter is internal damage which is usually weakly resisted and not affected by shields. In actual combat even Shatter themselves(without dot) do quite good damage against well defended opponent, sometimes on par with Impale (Try to shatter Powertech) The only thing that I actually dislike about shatter you have to pay attention to sunder and to the fact either dot present or not. And this is very inconvenient in PVP.

 

If cost is dropped then I could just spam Shatter and not look at dots at the heat of the moment.

[DarthHarlem]

 

I am glad that they are working on it, i just hope they do it right so that i don't end up with 50% health lost from fighting a group of normals when my trooper and smuggler with exact same level gear and end up with little to no health loss.

 

Sorry this is not a class problem, its a play-style issue. I don't know if you need to manage your rage better, upgrade your gear, or learn fight more effectively. I do not have this problem at all. My juggernaut is level 47 and I don't end up at half fighting mobs. I suggest you reevaluate your overall play-style and gear.

[tyrraanus]

veng is fine juggarnut is fine sith warrior is fine l2p. quit crying and reroll if you dont like it. maybe your not cut out for a class like a warrior. go play something more basic cause you cant comprehend the play style of a warrior in the veng tree.

[omninull]

On paper it sounds like the tree that should do the most damage, it has some dots and it has some hard hitting moves, I leveled from 1 to 40 in my immortal spec and just kinda feel like doing damage for a little while, its getting tougher to solo since things arnt dying fast enough and vette pulls off me like the goddess of agro

 

Look at the damage on the dots. They're pathetic. The bleed on scream requires two points to max out and does miserable damage. I respecced out of that talent.

Edited January 14, 2012 by omninull

[eightohfive]

On paper it sounds like the tree that should do the most damage, it has some dots and it has some hard hitting moves, I leveled from 1 to 40 in my immortal spec and just kinda feel like doing damage for a little while, its getting tougher to solo since things arnt dying fast enough and vette pulls off me like the goddess of agro

 

It's just not a very good solo spec. Quinn is the best bet if you do decide to solo Vengeance. However, it is a beast in Operations and Hard mode flashpoints. The downside is that it's pretty squishy, so you want someone else taking the damage for you. I'm using Vengeance for HM Eternity Vault and it is working great so far. I would never say no to a buff tho

[Quor]

It's just not a very good solo spec. Quinn is the best bet if you do decide to solo Vengeance. However, it is a beast in Operations and Hard mode flashpoints. The downside is that it's pretty squishy, so you want someone else taking the damage for you. I'm using Vengeance for HM Eternity Vault and it is working great so far. I would never say no to a buff tho

 

I disagree on the solo aspect. I used Vengy to level, and stopped using Quinn after Tatooine. From there until Ilum it was just Vette and Jaesa. I whipped Quinn out after the first quest on Ilum though, cause the safety net of the healing was nice. But once I had upgraded Jaesa and Vette's gear I was able to bring them out and now I can tear through the Ilum dailies about twice as fast as I did with Quinn (who is great support, but not that good at killing).

 

But really, the crux of leveling as Vengeance is you really don't level as Vengeance until after 15, because getting Battle Cry and Enraged Sunder in Immortal is just so great for anyone as they level up. The returns on those two talents pale in comparison to anything Vengeance gives at low levels. But once you hit 40 and can access both Shatter and Impale then Vengeance is becomes a powerhouse.