Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[Acelot]

I would consider Rocket punch as "melee" attack, and still it bypasses shields.

Also tooltip never told me that crits are unshieldable.

There is alot of flaw in the whole defense system.

 

Just imagine Crit and Surge would only work for your basic attack for your main weapon, all other attacks/skills would NOT be effected.

There would be a RIOT by DPSers all over !

 

This here is basicly the same problem but on the defense side of attributes.

[xTyphoidx]

To say they work as advertised is an outright lie which many here also seem to disagree with you on, so it isn't just me. You can define it however you want in your head to make yourself feel justified, but obviously a lot of people don't agree.

 

There seems to be enough of a concern over this that it would warrant a response from someone other than another player, like maybe a dev? I know, that would be crazy...have a dev come explain to us what is going on after 100+ pages of discussion over tanking stats, gear budget, and tank skills.

[Torcer]

 

Just imagine Crit and Surge would only work for your basic attack for your main weapon, all other attacks/skills would NOT be effected.

There would be a RIOT by DPSers all over !

 

.

 

I guarantee you that the people claiming that Mitigation is fine even though Shields don’t work on Force/Tech would be complaining ten times as much as we are if the DPS stats on their gear suddenly did not work.

[kuan]

This thread has been making me lol for the week or so that it has been up.

 

I'm a 50 jugg. I pvp as immortal. I have my main item slots filled with war leader's champion gear. ~17k hp. I'm already pretty hard to kill. With a skilled pocket healer I can usually run the huttball from mid to goaline (though this isn't really the best strat in that WZ).

 

Is this an issue BW should have addressed, YES. Even just to say hey guys this is how it's intended to be.

 

I can't imagine how OP i'd be if they buffed my defenses and shields. How are ppl complaining about this. I've read about 60 pages of this topic and seen all the silly theorycrafting. I'm happy with the way it is. I got a warning on this forum once already for calling out ppl that didn't understand pvp/resolve/balance but whatever.

 

1. Learn when to use your CDs.

2. Group up with complementary classes.

3. Don't expect to be uber all the time.

 

Ignore me, report me, whatever. Did I miss the OP's point? No. I know what he's talking about. I know why he's complaining. Does it make sense with the current pvp setup of this game? No. Unless you want tanks to be solo defending doors/turrets/the ball with an almost game-breaking capability.

 

i bet u sir are tanking the 12lvl scoundrels and 21 lvl commandos hard!!!!Get 2 serious dpsers ****** ur healer or simply cc him out of ur guard range and u will be so hard like a giga puddy.And i can ensure u that this will happen cuz i have a Vanguard shieldspec Battlemaster 21k life 44%absorb 14% def 580 expertise ........let ca same geared BH focus me and they will **** me with their tech attacks (since they also reduce my only good defensive stat for pvp , my armor)and BH are just an example.As i also said previously yeahi had my ''iam *********** immortal ''moments 2 with my pocket healer but i can ensure u my enemies were just braindead or low lvl and i could the same Bruce lee action as commando with my healer for example.But 1 class shouldnt be depending on another to fullfill her role imo otherwise this whole class selection makes absolute no sense just give to all heal/dmg/tanking skills and let em decide spontaniously what to use for!!!Cuz as it is now , there are no tanks at 50's successfull swtor pvp !!!There are Good healers good dpsers and some wannabe tanks pressing their 3 survivability skils(cuz there are no more if u remove the trinket or biochem as an option) to stay for 3 more seconds alive!

I know most of u wont belive me and u will still think that u are pretty tankish but if the 50 bracket is there and u actually play vs equal enemies u will c how fast u go down as a ''Tank''

Edited January 17, 2012 by kuan

[Jooji]

Does the OP really want tanks buffed in PvP? Or did I just read that post wrong? And did he really just claim a sorc shield can hit 9k?

 

All my PvP experience thus far in this game tells me:

 

A) tanks "Tank" a LOT of damage in PvP, whether or not their tank stats are working properly

 

B) sorcs are paper. Sure they can kite around well, but static barrier is nowhere near 9k, more like 2-3k in pvp.

 

I've had voidstars and huttballs where 4-5 people sit on my tank friend and beat on him for a long time and he easily stays up with just one healer, even while I'm kiting someone myself. If I was the one out there being beat on I'd be dead in a matter of seconds, whether on my sorc or operative healer(both full champion).

 

**My tank friend does complain sorcs wreck him but let's be real, a tank shouldn't be immune to everything...There's supposed to be checks and balances...etc

Edited January 17, 2012 by Jooji

[pykno]

Does the OP really want tanks buffed in PvP?

 

we just want stats on our dedicated pvp gear that actually work in pvp against more than 15% of all attacks .

[BobSassafrass]

Does the OP really want tanks buffed in PvP? Or did I just read that post wrong? And did he really just claim a sorc shield can hit 9k?

 

All my PvP experience thus far in this game tells me:

 

A) tanks "Tank" a LOT of damage in PvP, whether or not their tank stats are working properly

 

B) sorcs are paper. Sure they can kite around well, but static barrier is nowhere near 9k, more like 2-3k in pvp.

 

I've had voidstars and huttballs where 4-5 people sit on my tank friend and beat on him for a long time and he easily stays up with just one healer, even while I'm kiting someone myself. If I was the one out there being beat on I'd be dead in a matter of seconds, whether on my sorc or operative healer(both full champion).

 

**My tank friend does complain sorcs wreck him but let's be real, a tank shouldn't be immune to everything...There's supposed to be checks and balances...etc

 

As many have said, the survivability difference between a tank specced and geared jugg and a dps specced and geared jugg is incredibly small. The gear adds a small amount of mitigation for a small number of classes while drastically reducing dps. I wear full dps pvp gear after switching from the tank set and there is a very small change in damage taken. With a pocket healer I can easily survive just as long, if not longer because I can actually do damage.

[Pawlaar]

i bet u sir are tanking the 12lvl scoundrels and 21 lvl commandos hard!!!!Get 2 serious dpsers ****** ur healer or simply cc him out of ur guard range and u will be so hard like a giga puddy.And i can ensure u that this will happen cuz i have a Vanguard shieldspec Battlemaster 21k life 44%absorb 14% def 580 expertise ........let ca same geared BH focus me and they will **** me with their tech attacks (since they also reduce my only good defensive stat for pvp , my armor)and BH are just an example.As i also said previously yeahi had my ''iam *********** immortal ''moments 2 with my pocket healer but i can ensure u my enemies were just braindead or low lvl and i could the same Bruce lee action as commando with my healer for example.But 1 class shouldnt be depending on another to fullfill her role imo otherwise this whole class selection makes absolute no sense just give to all heal/dmg/tanking skills and let em decide spontaniously what to use for!!!Cuz as it is now , there are no tanks at 50's successfull swtor pvp !!!There are Good healers good dpsers and some wannabe tanks pressing their 3 survivability skils(cuz there are no more if u remove the trinket or biochem as an option) to stay for 3 more seconds alive!

I know most of u wont belive me and u will still think that u are pretty tankish but if the 50 bracket is there and u actually play vs equal enemies u will c how fast u go down as a ''Tank''

 

Sigh. Yeah, I only tank lowbies. I have never faced an equally geared opponent. You sir, use proper punctuation as often as you bathe.

 

You can't seriously expect to be as viable at tanking in PvP as you are in PvE. With guard and the fact that our taunts actually matter in PvP, even tanks in mediocre gear can change a game. I put up anywhere from 60k-80k protection score and keep people alive (most often at the expense of my life). I feel like that's the point. I expect to die alot.

 

Buff tank stats in PvP and we might as well bookmark this thread as a reference to post in all the threads complaining about how OP we would become.

 

And yes, this is my opinion.

[Uzuki]

I fully agree with the orignal poster, of course some of the numbers could be tweak to satisify unseen factors. There should never be a skill that avoids all mitigation. I might as well run around naked at times, its a silly idea. No matter how much improvement you put in your character your only going to get hit harder and harder as classes like operative go up in gear? I love tanking in pvp, but i won't do it like this. At the moment pvp is just like every other game out there. THe bigger the numbers the better you are.

[Jooji]

As many have said, the survivability difference between a tank specced and geared jugg and a dps specced and geared jugg is incredibly small. The gear adds a small amount of mitigation for a small number of classes while drastically reducing dps. I wear full dps pvp gear after switching from the tank set and there is a very small change in damage taken. With a pocket healer I can easily survive just as long, if not longer because I can actually do damage.

 

Well then the tank gear should just be removed. Tanks don't need any more survivability in PvP.

[pykno]

Well then the tank gear should just be removed. Tanks don't need any more survivability in PvP.

 

possible

 

but if i dont get my tokens refunded I AM GONNA KILL SOMEONE

[xTyphoidx]

Yes, this is a big factor. I'd like a refund on the pieces with tank stats i bought.

[Sunsoar]

Has there been an official response to shield absorb not fully working in PvP?

[Acala]

Has there been an official response to shield absorb not fully working in PvP?

 

No. And that "working is intended" crap that fanboys so happily argue about is so invalid and wrong I can't even explain...

[RG_jhanlec]

I am actually still curious if this will eventually get officially addressed. Even if the answer simply is "We dont want shield chance and absorb working in PvP because we feel it imbalances 'X'."

 

Whether its intended or not, it doesnt change the fact that my 2 highest stats dont work in PvP. I dont know every PvP game ever made, but for all that I have played in the last 8-10 years I recall block and defense working on all skills, even if slightly nerfed in mitigation for PvP. (e.g. Block only lowers attack damage taken by 20% instead of 50% like in PvE etc...)

[kuan]

Sigh. Yeah, I only tank lowbies. I have never faced an equally geared opponent. You sir, use proper punctuation as often as you bathe.

 

You can't seriously expect to be as viable at tanking in PvP as you are in PvE. With guard and the fact that our taunts actually matter in PvP, even tanks in mediocre gear can change a game. I put up anywhere from 60k-80k protection score and keep people alive (most often at the expense of my life). I feel like that's the point. I expect to die alot.

 

Buff tank stats in PvP and we might as well bookmark this thread as a reference to post in all the threads complaining about how OP we would become.

 

And yes, this is my opinion.

 

And lets say it again mr obvious!!!U can have the same amount of protection score with ur class even while specced dps if u have a good healer behind ur back!!!

 

And who said smth about beeing viable in pvp as in pve ???WE Just want those defending stats that are worth nothing , even if u like it or not its just a fact , to be removed or to get fixed so they actually have some use in pvp .

Which part u dont understand???In fact u have a good healer next to u and thats why u just think u are unbeatable as u are right now and fixing tanking stats would only make it OP.

But u are wrong!

And one thing pls if could pls explain us/me what makes u rlly think how u actually tank those ppl (iam not even referring to ur '' iam grabbing the ball from mid and to run to the goal line , cuz its just a bad joke for ppl that actually know about huttball and are decent pvpers)to be more speciffic which of ur stats makes u possible to tank this ppl???

I want to see if u got the whole topic of the OP !

And about the part of beeing ur opinion make no sense at all!!It has nothing to do with opinions ,my opinion could be that 1+2=Banana but that just wrong .

Nobody said about how to change it --there is where opionions are needed !!!But that those stats are just stupid and kinda useless in pvp are just a fact dude.And u are telling us about beeing OP without to see any suggestion how to change it......doesnt make sense at all!!!

Edited January 18, 2012 by kuan

[Roxiey]

Bumping this in hopes to get an official response. It's sad that all the champ gear I have has stats on it that don't apply to the large majority of damage I receive. I really felt like my time to live had increased with this gear but it a false sense of security since its just the increased hp that's letting me live just a small amount longer.

[Fairell]

Fairell, you're red herring technique doesn't really apply here. We're talking about tanks shielding and absorbtion and how it doesn't seem to work as advertised in pvp. This isn't about fully pvp geared healer/tank duos owning soloers in wzs. The tank community wants to know if our stats are as worthless as they seem in pvp and if that was indeed the plan.

 

The next question would be, if that was in fact the plan, why is our pvp gear itemized to improve these largely useless facets of our defense for pvp? Without a combat log we only have a few videos and personal experience to go off of. Tanks are not very tanky, and in many cases are about the same defensively in any gear, relying on their defensive cooldowns such as smoke grenade to provide them any defensive utility. Right now we have many tools to make other players want to attack us, but not so many to mitigate the damage when it comes.

 

We should try to keep it on topic, are tank skills working as intended and what is up with our pvp gear itemization ? If dps players talents and itemization were geared towards skills that only worked on 15% of the player base i think we would get a hell of an uproar. I don't see why this should be any different.

 

 

wait wait.. how the hell are tank stats worthless? read again. shields and absorption make assassins, marauders, other juggs and snipers nearly useless. snipers, Juggs nad marauders rely heavily on weapon dmg. and guess what? weapon dmg skills are mitigated or negated by just about everything. then come energy/kinetic things and again, tanks have crapload of armor.

 

i repeatedly meet tanks, especially PT, who just dont die, while AOE eating ur hp away.

[kuan]

wait wait.. how the hell are tank stats worthless? read again. shields and absorption make assassins, marauders, other juggs and snipers nearly useless. snipers, Juggs nad marauders rely heavily on weapon dmg. and guess what? weapon dmg skills are mitigated or negated by just about everything. then come energy/kinetic things and again, tanks have crapload of armor.

 

i repeatedly meet tanks, especially PT, who just dont die, while AOE eating ur hp away.

 

So u say cuz we can actually semi-tank (cuz they also have some of the gooood stuff skill in their skillbox:P)3-4 class speccs we are tanks ?

Well truth is that the most ppl allready rerolled into those class-trees that actually kinda bypass those defenses dont even knowing why they do such ****loads of dmg:P thats sad but true!Well so our future in this game is to have some healers and the rest DPSers like Mercs/Commandos or Ops/scoundrels (those are just the heavy ''i give a **** about defenses '' classes).Well at my sever thats happening atm and thats kinda sad .And btw snipers are not even close to useless vs tanks they have enough techskills that also dont work with the whole defense system!

[TTantheman]

bump. BW will have to acknowledge this at some point, it's by far the most commented on topic on the pvp forums. Edited January 18, 2012 by TTantheman

[Roxiey]

i pasted it to the CS forums, probably will get in trouble for that but maybe it will get some sunlight over there.

[Fairell]

So u say cuz we can actually semi-tank (cuz they also have some of the gooood stuff skill in their skillbox:P)3-4 class speccs we are tanks ?

Well truth is that the most ppl allready rerolled into those class-trees that actually kinda bypass those defenses dont even knowing why they do such ****loads of dmg:P thats sad but true!Well so our future in this game is to have some healers and the rest DPSers like Mercs/Commandos or Ops/scoundrels (those are just the heavy ''i give a **** about defenses '' classes).Well at my sever thats happening atm and thats kinda sad .And btw snipers are not even close to useless vs tanks they have enough techskills that also dont work with the whole defense system!

 

it doesnt matter whether an ability is listed as force or tech. it is only interesting for healers, to know what they can cleanse and assassins, since they can resist it.

 

weapon dmg skills - can be parried, dodged, shielded (defense stat, shields armor)

force/tech aka kinetic/energy - can be resisted by sins/shadows, mitigated by armor.

internal/elemental - bypasses armor entirely, mitigated by resistances. all elemental/internal damaging attacks are dots except for infiltration shadows force breach and force in balance.

 

now a bit off topic about how scary those dots are. my low lvl commando healer laughs his *** off on a pyrotech trying to do any dmg. i can cleanse away everything he can do.

[kuan]

it doesnt matter whether an ability is listed as force or tech. it is only interesting for healers, to know what they can cleanse and assassins, since they can resist it.

 

weapon dmg skills - can be parried, dodged, shielded (defense stat, shields armor)

force/tech aka kinetic/energy - can be resisted by sins/shadows, mitigated by armor.

internal/elemental - bypasses armor entirely, mitigated by resistances. all elemental/internal damaging attacks are dots except for infiltration shadows force breach and force in balance.

 

now a bit off topic about how scary those dots are. my low lvl commando healer laughs his *** off on a pyrotech trying to do any dmg. i can cleanse away everything he can do.

 

Well actually it does matter cuz the heavy dmging skills are all force/tech or kinetic/energy and as u very well said they get reduced by armor so that makes it our biggest survivability stat for tank BUT why the hell do the DMg classes have on their skills an insane amount of armor piercing ?????

And btw internal/elemental aren't only dots several classes have strong DMg skills with this type for example vanguards

Edited January 18, 2012 by kuan

[thasaint]

Still no Dev response?

[Rynmarth]

I don't know why people are stuck in the narrow mindset that defensive stats have no place in pvp and any tank speced for defense is doing it wrong. It's really the complete opposite. Adding diversity to the available roles and playstyle in pvp enhances the experience.

 

I'm completely for a rework of the defense/shield/absorb mechanic. As they are now, it's just sad. When I first found out it only proced on weapon damage, I thought it was ridiculous.. or maybe it was a bug, then to find out that guard doesn't proc it either (on any damage). But wait it's worse! Guard doesn't even let the tank use his own mitigation! hahaahhah! That's really piss pathetic. Really.

 

Mind you, I'm not a tank and have no plan to play one. I'm not saying this out of bias. Even if it makes it harder for me to take them down, they deserve a defensive stat that's worthwhile and engaging.