Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[VoidSpectre]

Even on this point you are incorrect. DPS secondary stats have no diminishing returns, but tank stats do.

 

As more and more tiers become available, even the small amount of benefit that Def and Shield currently give will become worse and worse relative to DPS gear.

 

 

exactly.

 

 

why would they make the entire bases of our tanking set defense depending on defending against only a few attacks, while all other attacks continue to get stronger and stronger

[ltankhsd]

What exactly are you expecting them to address? People in this topic are using faulty logic to defend their claim, such as listing the QUANTITY of shield-bypassing attacks rather than the FREQUENCY of usage. Are you even aware that most of the shield bypassers ALREADY do less damage or get mitigated by armor? Are you keen on the fact that Elemental damage is already baselined to be less than non-elemental damage?

 

Disclaimer: Operatives are a completely different story and all that Internal damage needs to be nerfed.

 

Let's look at Troopers for a moment, shall we?

 

The Vanguard has two main specs... Tactics and Assault.

 

For Tactics, it's mostly elemental damage. Armor and Shield bypassing. It's a wizard spec meant to cut through tanks. What do you get out of it? Everything hits for less damage. It's actually considered a garbage DPS spec with a one-trick pony behind Pulse Generator, which needs to be built up to five charges by spamming one of the lowest damaging elemental attacks for 1300 a pop and then gets channeled for massive AOE cone damage (interruptable, fyi).

 

For Assault, the entire spec is centered around High Impact Bolt. You can spec for up to 90% armor penetration... but it's also a Ranged attack, which means shields affect it. Sure, you can choose to ignore shields... and you're now getting hit by this spec's main attack for over 3500 damage on a crit, and that's before buffs. On an average of every 6 seconds, depending on frequency of a certain cooldown reset proc. Really want to ignore your shield against this spec? Not likely. Besides that, the basic ranged Hammer Shot gets used often just for managing ammo... it's one of the most used attacks and gets mitigated by shields.

 

The Commando also has two main specs... Gunnery and Assault.

 

For Assault, you're the same as a Vanguard. You spam High Impact Bolt as much as humanly possible. Shield helps here tremendously in negating the absurd damage this move puts out. In fact, due to the armor penetration, it's the ONLY thing that negates the absurd damage this thing puts out. One trick pony shut down, and that's before including other ranged attacks Commandos get.

 

For Gunnery, you're basically built to spam Grav Round. It's a tech attack, so it ignores shields, but it's stopped by armor. It also has a cast time. Why are you letting the commando stand in one spot spamming Grav Round? That's like letting a wizard stand in one spot repeatedly casting Fireball. You're expecting that NOT to hurt? Meanwhile, his Charged Bolt is Ranged, his Hail of Bolts is Ranged, his Full Auto is Ranged, his basic attack is Ranged... all stopped by shields in addition to armor.

 

 

It's not that tanks are facing off against mountains of guys using tech attacks. It's that it's the smart thing to do against a tank. What do players do in other games? They use abilities that Cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried against TANKS. They use abilities that debuff Armor against TANKS. They use bleeds against TANKS. They use all kinds of shield ignoring monstrosities against TANKS and reserve their other stuff for non-tanks. Heck, even in WoW, shields did not function from behind. So what did Rogues do? They stunned the tank, ran behind him, and IGNORED HIS SHIELD.

 

Fact is, if you want the absolute most defense possible in PVP, being a tank has its merits. They are saviors in premades for it and do not need to contribute to the dps of the group, they just need to survive and do the objectives or keep the rest of the team alive. But it sounds like many people here are puggers who don't roll with a steady team or receive steady heals or have a PURPOSE to be tanking in PVP in the first place! So naturally... you're better off getting some DPS gear and helping the team another way.

 

Meanwhile, when you come up against that premade with a TRUE tank running the huttball or keeping his fellows alive on Voidstar, don't complain about how hard to kill he is. Small percentage boosts in damage reduction lead to BIG returns on healing, which greatly extends your lifespan. Exponentially.

 

Don't bother man. I already explained all this using ACTUAL NUMBERS pages ago and the gullible fools still deny it. Let them keep bumping this thread thinking that shields are useless in PvP and hoping in vain for a dev response to something that is working as intended and working just fine. I'm having fun seeing how many people are critical thinking failures.

[LordSemaj]

Don't bother man. I already explained all this using ACTUAL NUMBERS pages ago and the gullible fools still deny it. Let them keep bumping this thread thinking that shields are useless in PvP and hoping in vain for a dev response to something that is working as intended and working just fine. I'm having fun seeing how many people are critical thinking failures.

I suppose you're right. But as the Hero of the Republic army, I can't help but try to iron out the ignorance once in a while.

 

Best let things lie... if there's one thing Bioware can do, it's collect data correctly...

Edited January 13, 2012 by LordSemaj

[ltankhsd]

I suppose you're right. But as the Hero of the Republic army, I can't help but try to iron out the ignorance once in a while.

 

Best let things lie... if there's one thing Bioware can do, it's collect data correctly...

 

Well you might be here awhile if you keep trying. My first rebuttal in this thread started at page 50 and I spent most of yesterday daytime proving people wrong. I used numbers from my own character in game, I posted more than several examples of ranged/melee attacks affected by shielding from Torhead. I tried to explain that even if someone was using force/tech attacks exclusively in some strange world tank gear would still have more endurance than equal level DPS gear so tank gear is still worth it. Nothing worked, so good luck in your quest to reduce ignorance.

[Torcer]

 

 

Translation: I don't know how to argue effectively so I have to attempt to confuse you and you beat me with logic. Now I'll turn tail and run.

 

There isn't an iota of evidence in this thread that isn't anecdotal or circumstantial. Belittling me will not alter that fact.

 

You must be trolling, you simply must be. Anyone who wants to see the argument I and others made regarding Mitigation can scroll up, so pretending like an argument was not made is just silly. We’ve presented as much data as possible regarding the number and frequency of Tech and Force attacks that ignore Mitigation, without a Combat Log doing more is impossible. While we’re at it, you’ve argued by anecdote far more than we have. I explained why Player Skill is not relevant in a game mechanics discussion – a skilled player can overcome mechanics stacked against them when playing against unskilled players, but that has little to do with the poorly implemented game mechanic. The Pro PvPer types will tend to gravitate towards the classes with mechanics that favor those classes, which is why there are so many Sorcs and Ops in the WZs.

[LordSemaj]

We’ve presented as much data as possible regarding the number and frequency of Tech and Force attacks that ignore Mitigation, without a Combat Log doing more is impossible.

I'm not arguing with your data, I'm arguing with your conclusions. As with every scientific experiment, how you setup the test is just as important as the results, and even then interpretation of the results is critical. Number of attacks is not an appropriate measure of the amount of damage a shield absorbs.

 

Your interpretation of these minimal gains is what's flawed. I tried to explain this multiple times in this thread, and again in my reply to yours. There is only so much I can do without combat logs to prove it.

 

While we’re at it, you’ve argued by anecdote far more than we have. I explained why Player Skill is not relevant in a game mechanics discussion – a skilled player can overcome mechanics stacked against them when playing against unskilled players, but that has little to do with the poorly implemented game mechanic.

I reiterate that this is another logical fallacy... you're propagating a truth without regard for its intention, to set an even stage for an experiment. Before that can be accomplished, both sides must be even... that is, a player with insufficient skill in no way can begin to understand how the mechanics operate under the appropriate conditions for the experiment. To such a player, negativity abounds even if the answer is looking him straight in the eye. The player lacks skill, and skill boils down to one thing -- the ability to think critically. The experiment becomes a sham. One cannot assume equally skilled players in a game mechanic discussion because often the ones making the complaints are unfit to be analyzing the dilemma!

 

Two identical sets of data from identical experiments reach different conclusions because of a player's interpretation of the results. It is their understanding that is lacking... as evidenced by the conclusions they draw. Player skill can never be ignored in discussions because it is the largest factor in why good experiments go wrong -- HUMAN ERROR! If one is incapable of creating the conditions necessary for the experiment, or unfit to analyze the outcome and collected data, primarily because they lack critical thinking, the experiment will always come up with negative results.

 

The Pro PvPer types will tend to gravitate towards the classes with mechanics that favor those classes, which is why there are so many Sorcs and Ops in the WZs.

You heard it here first, folks. Nevermind the lack of Sages and Scoundrels in PVP, they're not OP enough. Troopers must be OP by this logic.

 

People play the classes that are most attractive. James Bond and Zeus are attractive. There have been tons of Sorcerers since the game first went into testing, mechanics had nothing to do with it. Everyone just wants to shoot lightning.

 

 

As everything is now merely conjecture, I take my leave. Hopefully the rest of you will see the light as we have. It's bad enough to jump on bandwagons like nerf threads or Slicing is useless. We really don't need a thread exclaiming tank stats are useless when it simply isn't true.

 

Edited January 13, 2012 by LordSemaj

[ltankhsd]

These abilities are affected by shielding per Torhead:

 

Rapid Shots (BH)

Unload (BH)

Rail Shot (BH)

Power Shot (Merc)

Sweeping Blasters (Merc)

Weakening Blast (Sniper)

Snipe (Agent)

Rifle Shot (Agent)

Followthrough (Sniper)

Cull (Agent)

Overload Shot (Agent)

Ambush (Sniper)

Leg Shot (Sniper)

Carbine Burst (Operative)

Takedown (Sniper)

Suppressive Fire (Sniper)

Shatter Shot (Sniper)

Headshot (Agent)

Series of Shots (Sniper)

Voltaic Slash (Sin)

Thrash (Inq)

Saber Strike (Inq)

Low Slash (Sin)

Maul (Sin)

Lacerate (Sin)

Assassinate (Sin)

Vicious Slash (War)

Obliterate (Jugg)

Massacre (Mara)

Impale (Jugg)

Gore (Mara)

Crushing Blow (Jugg)

Assault (War)

Annihilate (Mara)

Force Charge (War)

Retaliation (War)

Ravage (War)

Sundering Assault (Jugg)

Battering Assault (Mara)

Crippling Slash (Mara)

Deadly Throw (Mara)

Sweeping Slash (War)

Saber Throw (Jugg)

Vicious Throw (War)

 

 

 

Ok that is all the Ranged/Melee attack class abilities that can be mitigated by I could see from the Empire side but rest assured the Republic side would look similar. Now please tell me that there aren't many abilities in game that are affected by shields with a straight face. Go ahead and go DPS if you want, I'll keep my shield generator and my tank armor with defense/shield/absorb, but don't try and tell me that I get no benefit from it.

 

Edit: To add, some of you may be thinking "Oh look how few Operative or Sorc abilities are listed!" Ok sure, those classes may do more damage against tanks than other classes might so we are weak vs them but guess what, they have their own nemesis classes out there like Marauders or Snipers which we seem to be strong against. Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Edited January 13, 2012 by ltankhsd

[CapuchinSeven]

There isn't an iota of evidence in this thread that isn't anecdotal or circumstantial. Belittling me will not alter that fact.

 

Say'th you. The ONLY evidence I've seen from you is totally random "I'm pro, i r teh tank that lives!". You're not paying attention, you're not reading or seemingly capable of grasping the point.

 

Shield and defence on tank gear offer minimal survival increase across some classes, DPS offers decent (not minimal) damage increase across ALL classes while still providing excellent survivability with the right spec.

 

People simply want to know if that's how Bioware intend for it to be because it makes little sense.

 

That's it, that's the only point here, no one cares if you're a "pro" tank, no one cares if you live forever, no one cares. People would just like to know if this is how it's intended to be.

 

Que you telling replying to tell us you're pro, YET again missing the point. People would just like to know because the DPS gain is higher on gear than the defence gain.

 

These abilities are affected by shielding per Torhead.

 

This again misses the point, it's not that tanking is useless or that shielding won't effect these classes, it's that defence and shield stats will only effect THOSE classes (and most of the survivability can be gained from talents) while DPS adds a substantial bonus to your DPS (even in a tanking spec) and effects ALL classes. Breaking down the attacks doesn't change that point.

 

The balance is one-sided.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[ltankhsd]

Say'th you.

 

Shield and defence on tank gear offer minimal survival increase across some classes, DPS offers decent (not minimal) damage increase across ALL classes while still providing excellent survivability with the right spec.

 

Oh irony.

[CapuchinSeven]

Oh irony.

 

...are you crazy or something?

 

Maybe caps will help.

 

THAT'S THE POINT, WE'RE ASKING FOR BIOWARE TO CONFIRM IF THIS IS THE CASE OR NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO COMBAT LOG. Have you even being reading the requests in this thread or are you just flapping your keyboard jaw for the sake of it?

 

Honestly, this is like trying to teach simple mathematics to a cat.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[ltankhsd]

...are you crazy or something?

 

Maybe caps will help.

 

THAT'S THE POINT, WE'RE ASKING FOR BIOWARE TO CONFIRM IF THIS IS THE CASE OR NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO COMBAT LOG. Have you even being reading the requests in this thread or are you just flapping your keyboard jaw for the sake of it?

 

Honestly, this is like trying to teach simple mathematics to a cat.

 

Why don't you ask them to confirm if the sky is blue or if water is wet while you are at it. To those of us with two brain cells to rub together, we see that it's working as intended and works fine.

[LordSemaj]

Shield and defence on tank gear offer minimal survival increase across some classes, DPS offers decent (not minimal) damage increase across ALL classes while still providing excellent survivability with the right spec.

Que you telling replying to tell us you're pro, YET again missing the point. People would just like to know because the DPS gain is higher on gear than the defence gain.

Sir... that is how it is in every game. I am not missing the point, you are. I have stated this over and over again starting in the pages halfway back down the thread.

 

You are calculating mitigation. Not damage. Damage can be calculated upward freely, it climbs ever higher in every single MMO. Mitigation always climbs slower, and always has a less of an initial effect, because mitigation has a stronger growth curve with greater returns when compounded with healing. Tanks are utterly useless without their healers, it is a symbiotic relationship that affects your mitigation calculations. You fail to understand how mitigation scales rapidly with healing, or even that healing exists at all, and thus you fail to appreciate or even comprehend how small gains in defense, however tiny you perceive them to be, result in substantial gains to survival. There is no point in discussing this with you further.

 

Going from a hypothetical 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction is only a small gain to people who cannot understand math, yet I see similar ignorance flourishing in this very thread. My colleague was right -- it is futile to try to explain this to any of you.

 

As for tanking stats affecting only certain classes... welcome to MMOs, you must be new. Were this World of Warcraft, EverQuest, Lotro, DDO, or some other, not even your armor would save you from a lightning bolt, much less your shields. Tanking armor/shields are never meant to stop every attack, and that holds true in the vast majority of MMOs. If it has a wizard in it, odds are he ignores armor and shields and attacks you like a squishy. It's called balance. Mages kill Tanks.

 

You still pick the Tank gear if you're aiming to be a premade. Sacrificing tank gear for the DPS is like DPS sacrificing DPS for extra Tanking power. It's nice for solo queues and has a large effect because you are spreading out your character's focus, but it just doesn't work in premades. Seriously, it's the same effect you get when a tank equips a 2-handed sword... he's gonna do a lot more damage and still have tons of survivability! But when you end up facing a REAL premade with a REAL tank and REAL DPS and when each player performs their job... they light your team up like a christmas tree.

 

Edited January 13, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Boarg]

half of ACs utilize it largely in some specs. not so largely in other. so take those few abilties and throw on another low % chance to shield/defense to even proc on them and it hardly seems worth it

 

The half I am referring to use it largely in all of their specs. Yes, it proportion between white/yellow does vary between the specs, but they still require doing a big chunk of their damage through the white combat table in order to do decent overall damage. Also, just because a spec might have a somewhat more favorable white:yellow proportion, doesn't make it a good PvP spec.

 

I'll use Jedi Shadow as an example.

 

Balance spec has the best capability of bypassing tank mitigation with Internal and Kinetic attacks...however, it is the WORST PvP spec, because of lack of overall pvp utility and how it deals damage: dots, aoe, and still requiring using white melee attacks to do decent damage because of how the ability synergy works.

 

Kinetic has slightly better white:yellow proprtion than Kinetic, but it does relatively low damage regardless, being a tank spec. (which this whole thread is deriding) By not going all the way down the tree and putting nearly half its points into Infiltration, it actually has pretty good PvP utility, mostly because of Force Pull. (and the increased survivability this thread frequently pretends doesn't exist)

 

Infiltration has the worst white:yellow proportion, but it's still the best PvP spec for anything other than trying to play a tank role. Despite the heavy usage of the white combat table, it has the most practical damage capability, even against a tank target, and strong utility.

[CapuchinSeven]

Why don't you ask them to confirm if the sky is blue or if water is wet while you are at it. To those of us with two brain cells to rub together, we see that it's working as intended and works fine.

 

You fail to understand how mitigation scales rapidly with healing

 

*blink*

 

It's like... you both seem to think what you're saying is true based on nothing but observation and have a total lack of ability to prove what you're saying is true (other than "i r teh good at eth mathz, i r wud show u but its so awsum") and then when presented with an alternative observation claim "but but omg u may as well ask 4 teh biowarez to tell u why teh sky is blue!"

 

There is no combat log.

You're both full of rubbish but present it with an air of superiority and very little evidence, when evidence is asked for you claim "it'll never happen, but trust us we is smart, u don't need it 'cus we smart we sees all".

 

If there is limited defence gained from tank gear but substantial DPS gained then defence gear has less value based on mine and others observations. You claim substantial defence can be gained from tank gear, but SHOCK can't prove it and claim any attempt for clarification without a combat log is pointless. What a helpful discussion this was, thank you for your input.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[ltankhsd]

*blink*

 

It's like... you both seem to think what you're saying is true based on nothing but observation and have a total lack of ability to prove what you're saying is true (other than "i r teh good at eth mathz, i r wud show u but its so awsum") and then when presented with an alternative observation claim "but but omg u may as well ask 4 teh biowarez to tell u why teh sky is blue!"

 

There is no combat log.

You're both full of rubbish but present it with an air of superiority and very little evidence, when evidence is asked for you claim "it'll never happen, but trust us we is smart, u don't need it 'cus we smart we sees all".

 

I've posted numbers from my own character on page 50, one freaking page ago I posted a crapload of abilities (44 total for Emp side) affected by shields, I posted lots of explanations of how the mechanics work in between and nothing gets through to you or people who agree with you. It's almost like you have your eyes shut tight, fingers in your and and are screaming repeatedly "CAN'T HEAR YOU, CAN'T HEAR YOU"

Edited January 13, 2012 by ltankhsd

[LordSemaj]

It's like... you both seem to think what you're saying is true based on nothing but observation and have a total lack of ability to prove what you're saying is true.

We've both posted numbers for various classes in this thread. I've even twice now tried to explain how the mitigation value expands to be greater than the face value. You're officially a troll. It isn't the data or the numbers we disagree on, it's how you're interpreting the results, thus it's not primarily data that is part of our counterargument... it's the logic and critical thinking needed to help you correctly analyze the data.

 

I reiterate... equipping DPS gear in this game is like equipping a tank with a 2-handed weapon in any other. It's going to greatly increase his damage at little cost to his survival.

 

That doesn't make it a good idea.

 

Oh, and keep dreaming about blocking fireballs with your shield. I'm sure one day a popular MMO like that will exist. Till then, get used to some classes ignoring it. There will always be classes that ignore tank defenses.

Edited January 13, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Xenon-se]

Please try to keep the thread civil. Last thing anyone of us want is that a mod is forced to lock it down because a few individuals can't agree to disagree in a mature manner.

 

I think it is pretty natural that some abilities or even entire classes ignore our shields. Spell casters use to do that in just about any other game (but sometimes a tank is giving tools to shield or reflect themselves against "magic" damage).

 

This feels natural to most abilities that Sith Inquistor Sorcerers throw at us. They are as close to a "mage" you get in this game. Frankly, in other games, armor would probably not even protect against their spells, but quite a lot of the Sorcerer lightnings and the mirror Sage telekinesis are actually Energy or Kinetic which armor help to mitigate.

 

It further feel natural that attacks that can be avoided or blocked can be avoided or blocked. Deflecting arrows and blocking swords is second nature. It's what tanks do, right? It feel natural that we can shield against laser swords. It feel a bit odd that we can dodge bullets (or in this case blaster fire) - but you see jedi guardians deflecting laser swords and blaster fire all the time - so why not. In SWTOR we can even shield against attacks from behind (such as backstab - Maul) or when we channel, something you can't in most other games.

 

Then we have snipers. In some games snipers are sometimes designed to be tank killers. Tanks being slow and easy targets for the long range and squishy sniper. Require preperation and aim. Sometimes stealth. Positioning. Wait for the perfect shot. Killing your target in one shot, or at least taking out a large chunk of its health pool. In this game tanks are probably one of the worst targets for a sniper since they can dodge and block just about anything comming out of that sniper rifle (explosives, poisons, droids and indirect fire is another story though).

 

So tanks both dodge and soak laser swords, blaster fire and sniper fire. Their armor soak lightning spells and projected rocks.

 

Then we have Bounty Hunters (both Powertech and Mercenary as well as Trooper Vanguard + Commando). They have melee moves such as Rocket Pounch or Retractable Blade that feel like tanks maybe should be able to shield against? A slow moving (compared to a sniper shot) explosive dart (maybe this is why wookies crossbow is useful - Darth Vader can't shield against it..?). A tracer missile? Nope. Can't shield against them. It "feel" as if tanks should be able to use their shields agains them, but they penetrate shields 100% of the time. Then again tanks can shield against a Rail Shot(!) and when the bounty hunter Unload his weapon(s) into the tank. Bounty Hunters also have an arsenal of elemental damage (such as flamethrowers) that not only are impossible to shield against - they also bypass armor (but that is more accepted I think?).

 

And then we come to operatives (and Scoundrels). Now it get really strange. Tanks can shield against a double bladed backstab (Maul) that require hitting from behind, but tanks can't shield against Backstab from an operative using a vibro knife...? Tanks can shield against Assassinate from an Assassin but they cannot shield against Hidden Strike from an operative? Tanks can shield from Thrash but not from Operative Shiv...? There are quite a lot of "melee" moves that Operatives use that at least I think is strange that they count as Tech instead of Melee and thus all ignore shields 100%. A good thing is that most their abilities are Kinetic or Energy so that they don't ignore armor. The bad thing is that Acid Blade give both Backstab and Hidden Strike internal damage as well as a very strong sundering armor effect which render armor a weak last line of defense.

 

Is it done on purpose?

 

I guess that is what we all want to know and only BioWare can answer that.

 

Since Sorcereres, Bounty Hunters and Operatives represent a lot more than half the playable population this first month of the game (flavor maybe, who knows) and because Marauders and Juggernauts can spec into Rage (mostly ignore shields), Assassins can spec into Madness (enhance shaman-ish spec that also mostly ignore shields) and snipers can spec into engineering or lethality (both largely ignore shields) it also mean that Tank PvP equipment have a lot of stats that is rendered mostly useless compared to DPS PvP equipment (that have the same amount of expertise and armor and just lightly less endurance - but a ton more DPS stats). Maybe all of that defense, shield and absorb on Tank PvP equipment should be converted into something more useful for PvP - even pure endurance would be more useful right now...

 

Then again, the whole champion gear lotto give such good equipment return for little effort that it currently is more than well worth collecting a few bags a week just to buy PvP Tank gear and use it to tank PvE.

 

Tank PvP equipment is still more useful than DPS PvP equipment against "most" Snipers, Assassins, Marauders and Juggernauts - but the overall extra survivability you [might] gain for the average matchup in a warzone is very slim compared to the extra damage output you [will] gain by using DPS PvP equipment.

[Boarg]

You are right with what you write here, but as stated several times:

There are classes mitigation works pretty well against and classes where it is nearly useless.

 

- Jaggernaut/Guardian

- Operative/Scoundrel

- Sorcerer/Sage

- Assassin/Shadow

 

Against these classes mitigation has litteraly near to no use.

 

You're actually pretty mixed up here on which classes are in which camp.

 

There's a white damage combat table, which is subject to defense and shields. There is a yellow damage combat table which is not.

 

There are 4 class AC's that when doing an optimal damage priority/rotation/spec that deal predominantly yellow damage or can substitute in yellow damage with little penalty. They are:

 

Scoundrel/Operative

Commando/Mercenary

Vanguard/Powertech

Sage/Sorcerer

 

 

The other 4 class AC's rely heavily on dealing damage through the white damage combat table when doing optimal priority/rotation/spec. They have very limited capability or effectiveness for trying to substitute in yellow damage. They are:

 

Gunslinger/Sniper

Shadow/Assassin

Sentinel/Marauder

Guardian/Juggernaut

 

 

Looking at ability lists in a vacuum is useless. You have to actually have some understanding of how the classes work and deal damage when played correctly.

[topoulo]

Honestly, this is like trying to teach simple mathematics to a cat.

 

Or trolls to have manners ;p

[Khabarach]

The other 4 class AC's rely heavily on dealing damage through the white damage combat table when doing optimal priority/rotation/spec. They have very limited capability or effectiveness for trying to substitute in yellow damage. They are:

 

Gunslinger/Sniper

Shadow/Assassin

Sentinel/Marauder

Guardian/Juggernaut

 

 

Looking at ability lists in a vacuum is useless. You have to actually have some understanding of how the classes work and deal damage when played correctly.

The two bolded above use Rage as their PvP DPS spec, hence rely mostly on Force Attacks, i.e. Yellow damage. The white damage they do is largely just rage building. Edited January 13, 2012 by Khabarach

[Boarg]

Just as a side note...

 

Tanks are actually lucky in PvP in this game compared to most.

 

In most MMO games, there's an assortment of magic/caster classes (or equivalent) that bypass nearly everything that makes a tank durable. Essentially, all they are left with is a bigger HP bar to stay alive.

 

In this game, even the roughly magic damage equivalent type classes have the vast majority of their abilities fully affected by ARMOR. So, here tanks get to keep their HP and Armor. Also, they get to have their taunt and guard functions actually be highly useful in PvP.

[DsevenO]

Sir... that is how it is in every game. I am not missing the point, you are. I have stated this over and over again starting in the pages halfway back down the thread.

 

You are calculating mitigation. Not damage. Damage can be calculated upward freely, it climbs ever higher in every single MMO. Mitigation always climbs slower, and always has a less of an initial effect, because mitigation has a stronger growth curve with greater returns when compounded with healing. Tanks are utterly useless without their healers, it is a symbiotic relationship that affects your mitigation calculations. You fail to understand how mitigation scales rapidly with healing, or even that healing exists at all, and thus you fail to appreciate or even comprehend how small gains in defense, however tiny you perceive them to be, result in substantial gains to survival. There is no point in discussing this with you further.

 

Going from a hypothetical 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction is only a small gain to people who cannot understand math, yet I see similar ignorance flourishing in this very thread. My colleague was right -- it is futile to try to explain this to any of you.

 

As for tanking stats affecting only certain classes... welcome to MMOs, you must be new. Were this World of Warcraft, EverQuest, Lotro, DDO, or some other, not even your armor would save you from a lightning bolt, much less your shields. Tanking armor/shields are never meant to stop every attack, and that holds true in the vast majority of MMOs. If it has a wizard in it, odds are he ignores armor and shields and attacks you like a squishy. It's called balance. Mages kill Tanks.

 

You still pick the Tank gear if you're aiming to be a premade. Sacrificing tank gear for the DPS is like DPS sacrificing DPS for extra Tanking power. It's nice for solo queues and has a large effect because you are spreading out your character's focus, but it just doesn't work in premades. Seriously, it's the same effect you get when a tank equips a 2-handed sword... he's gonna do a lot more damage and still have tons of survivability! But when you end up facing a REAL premade with a REAL tank and REAL DPS and when each player performs their job... they light your team up like a christmas tree.

 

 

Assuming that "mages kill tanks" is an mmo axiom and that our mitigation should be irrelevent to all attacks that aren't either ranged or melee I would be willing to abandon that portion of the argument. (Btw, does anyone know what percentage of attacks across all classes are defined as ranged or melee?)

 

Moving on, I would love to see the data that supports the notion that our pvp mitigation stats scale rapidly with healing (as opposed to a pure dps class that has a dedicated healer folowing them around). It's easy to see how going from an improbable 98 percent mitigation to 99 percent mitigation would be huge because you now just effectively halved you damage intake from 2 percent damage taken to 1 percent. I'd like to see how going from say 25 percent mitigation to 26 percent is mathematicallly huge. I'm genuinely interested in the mathematics behind this and I think it would go a long was to ending this thread if it is indeed a red herring.

Edited January 13, 2012 by DsevenO

[Garbald]

Just as a side note...

 

Tanks are actually lucky in PvP in this game compared to most.

 

In most MMO games, there's an assortment of magic/caster classes (or equivalent) that bypass nearly everything that makes a tank durable. Essentially, all they are left with is a bigger HP bar to stay alive.

 

In this game, even the roughly magic damage equivalent type classes have the vast majority of their abilities fully affected by ARMOR. So, here tanks get to keep their HP and Armor. Also, they get to have their taunt and guard functions actually be highly useful in PvP.

 

 

 

Not really, most dps trees have armor reducing or ignoring stuff for all the hard hitters that could potentially be severely reduced by armor, flechette round, infiltration tactics, grav round, armor piercing cell etc.

This alone would not be that bad but coupled with all the abilities that flat out ignore armor reduces the importance and usefulness of armor quite a lot.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Garbald

[Boarg]

The two bolded above use Rage as their PvP DPS spec, hence rely mostly on Force Attacks, i.e. Yellow damage. The white damage they do is largely just rage building.

 

Even with a Focus/Rage spec, they still deal a large portion of their overall damage through the white combat table. Fighting against a tank will significantly reduce their damage output.

 

Also, any of the other specs are very heavy in white damage.

[Boarg]

Not really, most dps trees have armor reducing or ignoring stuff for all the hard hitters that could potentially be severely reduced by armor, flechette round, infiltration tactics, grav round, armor piercing cell etc.

This alone would not be that bad but coupled with all the abilities that flat out ignore armor reduces the importance and usefulness of armor quite a lot.

 

Even where such things exist, they only do in part.

 

For example, you could easily say that about an Infiltration Shadow. Force Breach does internal damage, and Shadow Strike can consume procs that give it 50% armor bypass.

 

However, Force Breach has a 15s cooldown and requires using lots of regular attacks beforehand to build up a buff stack so that it will actually hit reasonably hard.

 

And Shadow Strike is garbage unless it has the Find Weakness proc that makes it cheap enough to be worth using and to have the 50% armor bypass. That critical Find Weakness proc has a 10s ICD.

 

So, even if they got to wail away on a tank for an entire ~35s window in a perfect world, they would only have 5 attacks during that whole time that legitimately ignore or reduce armor. The other up to 23 attacks would be fully mitigated by armor...and those include several of the heavy hitters.

 

Also...where armor is "reduced"...you're still getting the benefit of armor and an advantage over non-tanks.