What If Raids Dropped No Gear?

[CorellianWannabe]

The first thing my guild raided in Cataclysm was the Whale Shark.

 

So you would be cool with world bosses and raid bosses dropping no loot in this game?

[Xenith]

What if only mods were dropped in raids (and only the best PvE mods) to enable raid progression?

 

The same could be done with PvP mods for PvP effort, and the best looking orange gear could be purchased with commendations (no mods). Through this system, those that want to grind end game stats (raid or PvP) could, while those who don't want to can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Seems to me that would allow people to play as casually or hard core as they want, or somewhere in the middle.

 

That would suck horrendously and would kill the thought of progression raiding as you reach a new tier you get a new set of gear. If they awarded only mods, it'd be dull and boring reward wise. Never going to happen.

[bravotwentysev]

If I am correct this is how SOE everquest is doing it now. First raid drops a piece with stats. As you progress in tiers the stats grow on it. No new gear.

[itsmymillertime]

nice necro people

 

 

put they could combine it where random armorings/mods/enhancements/barrels/hilts drop plus empty shell versions of the next gear. That would allow people to get a new set of gear and able to min max it quicker plus still retain a new piece of armor. That is what I would like to see as the stats on the gear is pathetic and requires more "farming" of the instance to get yourself min/maxed.

[Revanchis]

Well that's not what I was going for- obviously there has to be some reward to keep people going. That's true of any part of this- if there's no reward for maxing crafting, people won't- if there's nothing to gain from questing, people won't. What if there were no levels and the whole game was just a bunch of quests with no rewards? People wouldn't do them.

 

But my point is that the mod system could allow BW to keep the stat carrot around (that is really only useful for raiders trying to unlock more hard hitting PvE content) while still letting everyone have access to the best looking gear and earn it in a variety of different ways (and it would still take effort, because the best looking gear could require a metric ton of commendations).

 

If there were no levels or rewards but the story was good I guarantee people would play it.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

I'm hoping that dropping mods vs dropping gear is the hint to the change in progression from the Q&A. Almost ever endgame PvE piece has been horridly itemized and required a lot of swapping to make any good anyway. On top of that the sets are all ugly and most people (I think) would prefer to create their own unique look anyway. It would also decrease waste. I know in my guild we quickly get to a point where people are rolling on pieces because they just need one mod or the armoring or whatever. The rest of the gear ends up wasted (or rather re'd in most cases). Changing to mods would also allow for more loot distribution per drop. Going from 2 pieces of gear in 16 man to 6 gear slot items would allow almost half the raid to get something on ever drop, also people could immediately upgrade rather than having to go to a vendor.

 

I full support this idea.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

If there were no levels or rewards but the story was good I guarantee people would play it.

 

They would play it, but completely consume it much quicker. If they took all rewards out of raid what you'd see is once a guild does a full clear they never, or rarely, return to rerun it. As a result to keep PvE players occupied they'd have to increase the speed of releasing ops by a factor of 4 or 5 or people would start quitting out of boredom.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[asbalana]

A coupla things about raids.....

 

Devs spend a huge amount of resources making the raids detailed and impressive...and the first thing everyone does is turn down everything so the lag is bearable. Go figure.

 

(Not talking about the extreme hardcore) Games have changed...now solo and duo are almost all of the game to top level...therefore solo and duo type players are the majority that happily stick with the game to top level, usually taking a few months.....so why is it that raid or die always becomes the new game offered at level cap?

 

Seems that if the majority obviously liked solo and duo (with a few groups thrown in) for months, perhaps the same style of play should be emphasized as the major avenue for progression at level cap.

 

Just sayin'

 

True.

 

MMOs seem to be built around attracting the solo and duo players by providing an extensive leveling process and then tossing them away at cap. The raid or die approach seems self defeating if one wants to produce a long lived highly populated game, yet our modern crop of devs (in most games not just SWTOR) seem unable or unwilling to offer anything else.

 

The OPs question is poorly phased with respect to his point. Just reading it before I clicked on the thread brought the answer in my mind that only a very few would raid. Truely, how many people raid for the fun of it and of them how many would run a raid more than once or twice if there was no "reward"?

 

I play MMOs as a duo with my wife for the fun and enjoyment and entertainment value. After a long work day of dealing with demaning clients and complex technical and other issues, the last thing I need is the work and drama in a group envronment that is the core of raiding. We enjoy a challenge and will do what it takes to get the job done in a duo enviornment, but not in a larger group or guild context with the crap that goes on.

[drfirewater]

What if only mods were dropped in raids (and only the best PvE mods) to enable raid progression?

 

The same could be done with PvP mods for PvP effort, and the best looking orange gear could be purchased with commendations (no mods). Through this system, those that want to grind end game stats (raid or PvP) could, while those who don't want to can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Seems to me that would allow people to play as casually or hard core as they want, or somewhere in the middle.

 

I think its a perfect idea if you want people not to raid anymore. That would leave only PVP worth doing and reduce our population to the 100k of the 2 million that like pvp enough to play this game for just that person and the game will be dead in a month.

 

People need the slotted gear from raids for more then just gearing themselves ... its matts for crafting ... its items for REing so you have stuff to craft ... its for letting guildies aquire gear requirements for current progression raiding rather then have to do the lower level raids 3-4 times before gearing to the levels that the guild is progressed to.

 

what they need to do is every two tiers of gear add coms for the last tier. Once the Gree gear comes out ... they need to add Dread Guard coms obtained in the lvl 50-55 content and new lvl 55 HM FPs and raids.

 

That being said .... i do believe that the SMs for raids where the HM dropps dread guard gear (right now only TFB) should drop single mod/enhancement/armorings of Dread guard quality on last boss only. This way groups that cant take out the TFB HM without better gear can obtain it however slowly allowing them to progress.

[SnoggyMack]

can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Meh. The best looking gear in the game these days comes from the cartel market, not from raids.

[EternalMizer]

Question:

 

What if raids dropped no gear at all.

 

Answer:

 

All the raiders who say they do it for the challenge would be exposed for the liars they are.

 

I lol at how true this is. I outright admit to anyone I raid with that I do it for the gear. I have no qualms helping others get gear/enjoy the challenge, but I let them know why I am there.

[Quraswren]

What if only mods were dropped in raids (and only the best PvE mods) to enable raid progression?

 

The same could be done with PvP mods for PvP effort, and the best looking orange gear could be purchased with commendations (no mods). Through this system, those that want to grind end game stats (raid or PvP) could, while those who don't want to can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Seems to me that would allow people to play as casually or hard core as they want, or somewhere in the middle.

 

Interesting idea but not something I would support.

 

I think there needs to be interesting gear for both the casual and hardcore in both PVE and PVP but I also think that since customization is such a big thing in games, the ones that play the game the most, put in a good bit of effort to defeat encounters not everyone can do, then they should be awarded a different look not attainable by just everyone.

 

I lol at how true this is. I outright admit to anyone I raid with that I do it for the gear. I have no qualms helping others get gear/enjoy the challenge, but I let them know why I am there.

 

I tell them I do it for both. I like the content and challenge but I'm also there to gear up.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Quraswren

[drfirewater]

True.

 

MMOs seem to be built around attracting the solo and duo players by providing an extensive leveling process and then tossing them away at cap. The raid or die approach seems self defeating if one wants to produce a long lived highly populated game, yet our modern crop of devs (in most games not just SWTOR) seem unable or unwilling to offer anything else.

 

The OPs question is poorly phased with respect to his point. Just reading it before I clicked on the thread brought the answer in my mind that only a very few would raid. Truely, how many people raid for the fun of it and of them how many would run a raid more than once or twice if there was no "reward"?

 

I play MMOs as a duo with my wife for the fun and enjoyment and entertainment value. After a long work day of dealing with demaning clients and complex technical and other issues, the last thing I need is the work and drama in a group envronment that is the core of raiding. We enjoy a challenge and will do what it takes to get the job done in a duo enviornment, but not in a larger group or guild context with the crap that goes on.

 

This game is far FAR from raid or die..... you can get all the gear you need by having a cybertech and doing nothing but HM FPs, pvp, space combat heroics and dailies. Between the lot of them you can get millions of matts and a ton of bh coms each week. And the more characters you have the easier it is.

 

This game is set up in a way where crafters allow soloers easy access to top end gear just by crafting free with aquisition on matts alone. Dailies alone many drop 6-12 bh coms a week and are pretty easy to find groups for the quests that require them.(FYI they need to make it so companions can use the doors in AC) 5 a day per character for HM FPs ... that is once piece of BH gear each week having never raided ... Dailes get you easily 300k a day in cash which is enough to buy matts .... in two or three months (easily the time between updates) you can have an entire set of raid worthy gear having never raided at all.

 

this game is so solo friendly that Queues for SM raids almost never go off .... HM FPs have no replay-ability aside from the one a day for coms currently making it hard for dps to get into groups unless they want to wait for 2 hours for another tank to log on.

 

I would suggest letting people queue with companions so there are more groups but taht would only help people with good gear .. and new folks would not only not have well geared people to carry them but it would also lower the pool of players available.

[Revanchis]

They would play it, but completely consume it much quicker. If they took all rewards out of raid what you'd see is once a guild does a full clear they never, or rarely, return to rerun it. As a result to keep PvE players occupied they'd have to increase the speed of releasing ops by a factor of 4 or 5 or people would start quitting out of boredom.

 

In that particular case I was talking about games in general. Rewards don't drive people exclusively, and I think MMO players forget that.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

In that particular case I was talking about games in general. Rewards don't drive people exclusively, and I think MMO players forget that.

 

I disagree, in general people are reward driven, the exception is when someone does something when there is no reward. As far as video games are concerned however reward can be story or challenge and doesn't necessarily mean loot.

 

I still think the majority of raiders would clear an instance once then feel no reason to re-run it if there was nothing to farm from it.

[Revanchis]

I disagree, in general people are reward driven, the exception is when someone does something when there is no reward. As far as video games are concerned however reward can be story or challenge and doesn't necessarily mean loot.

 

I still think the majority of raiders would clear an instance once then feel no reason to re-run it if there was nothing to farm from it.

 

Id' say games can be enjoyable all on their own. Back in high school we played TF2 like everyday, always on Dustbowl. This was the Xbox version and was before any of the updates. So we weren't working towards any goals, just enjoying the game by itself.

 

A good game can stand on it's own without a goal to reach, because if the game isn't fun by itself then why are you playing. I don't understand that whole mentality. If raiding isn't fun and you wouldn't do it if there was no gear, then why even do it in the first place.

[POPsi]

if there were no reward in raids whatsoever I'd still do them for the lulz.. Point is to have fun.

[SnoggyMack]

Question:

 

What if raids dropped no gear at all.

 

Answer:

 

All the raiders who say they do it for the challenge would be exposed for the liars they are.

 

This post reminds me of one of my favorite bits from the Office.

 

Question. What kind of bear is best?

 

That's a ridiculous question.

 

False. Black bear.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Id' say games can be enjoyable all on their own. Back in high school we played TF2 like everyday, always on Dustbowl. This was the Xbox version and was before any of the updates. So we weren't working towards any goals, just enjoying the game by itself.

 

A good game can stand on it's own without a goal to reach, because if the game isn't fun by itself then why are you playing. I don't understand that whole mentality. If raiding isn't fun and you wouldn't do it if there was no gear, then why even do it in the first place.

 

Right you were doing it for the reward of enjoying the content. And to some extent most raiders feel that, at least the first time. The question is whether the replay value of the operations is strong enough to have people do them over and over with no reward. I think 10-20% probably would, but the other 80-90% would not, meaning that most guilds would have to stop or pug most of it after the first clear or two. This is my point. I'm not saying no one would raid past the first time, but a large enough number would not to kill guild runs.

[Eurynamous]

Interesting proposal, what kind of impact would that have on the already damaged crafting aspect? While the suggested system does keep that "look as you wish" level of pregression and investment intact. How would you implement it into the new reputation system? (It wouldn't be hard at all)

 

But the bigger question would then be, how do crafters who don't raid stay relavent when all of the great stuff drops in ops? A gulf is created when it becomes a those can and have over those who don't and can't. So, while your idea is bloody fantastic, how do you implement it without further invalidation of borderline useless skills and new features?

[Kynesis]

The idea certainly has merits however you'd quickly end up with everybody using only BiS mods - which we do for the most part eventually, but the pace of gearing would be significantly faster.

 

I'm sure there's also a strong feeling amongst Devs that people gain more satisfaction from earning a 'piece' of gear. I think at this stage, we've all become so accustomed to evaluating a piece by its mods that this is largely irrelevant now - in fact, many people see a drop or a 'piece' as composed of two components, the shell and its mods - as such, it seems completely reasonable and viable to treat them as separate rewards.

 

Mods (of various kinds) could be a more generic reward from a variety of encounters while shells might be reserved as a special reward for particularly difficult encounters.

 

I suspect the Devs have wanted to go in this direction for some time but feel that the biggest hurdle is that it adds a lot of complexity to loot tables - not merely as there are more items but that they need to ensure that the mix of all the extra items and their many combinations are suitably balanced - again though of course, we're quite close to that situation as it is because players evaluate rewards by their component mods anyway and will often take an item for a single good mod.

 

On that count in fact, it may help reduce drama as mods which are good for more than one character / class / role are separated from the controversy of the other mods & the shell being light/medium/heavy armour.

 

I think overall, the direction is almost inevitable.

[Revanchis]

Right you were doing it for the reward of enjoying the content. And to some extent most raiders feel that, at least the first time. The question is whether the replay value of the operations is strong enough to have people do them over and over with no reward. I think 10-20% probably would, but the other 80-90% would not, meaning that most guilds would have to stop or pug most of it after the first clear or two. This is my point. I'm not saying no one would raid past the first time, but a large enough number would not to kill guild runs.

 

Well, then maybe they should work on making raids more fun instead of trying to have more incentives. People play Civilization for hours at a time, myself included, but it doesn't offer anything.

[oakamp]

What if only mods were dropped in raids (and only the best PvE mods) to enable raid progression?

 

The same could be done with PvP mods for PvP effort, and the best looking orange gear could be purchased with commendations (no mods). Through this system, those that want to grind end game stats (raid or PvP) could, while those who don't want to can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Seems to me that would allow people to play as casually or hard core as they want, or somewhere in the middle.

 

wrong,

raid shouldnt drop any useful item,

only drop some customize stuff, like cloth , fancy speeder, pet something,

 

let player like the OP itself, dont let grinder play this game.

Edited January 18, 2013 by oakamp

[MaximusRex]

I would be fine with this.

[Monoth]

What if only mods were dropped in raids (and only the best PvE mods) to enable raid progression?

 

The same could be done with PvP mods for PvP effort, and the best looking orange gear could be purchased with commendations (no mods). Through this system, those that want to grind end game stats (raid or PvP) could, while those who don't want to can still earn the best looking gear in the game.

 

Seems to me that would allow people to play as casually or hard core as they want, or somewhere in the middle.

 

None of the Raid gear looks good, all we do is strip the mods from the gear and put itin stuff that does look good... BTW, Crafters can reverse engineer the raid gear to get recipes for it.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Monoth