Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[zolthie]

Forget need vs want. Addons make progressing through content easier, there is no denying it.

 

I do not support downloading programs to help me beat the game.

 

No, you'd rather just push random numbers, wipe randomly, just everything random with no way to know what went good, what went wrong. Just randomrandomrandom, hell, they should even implement a rolling system where you /roll, over 50 no loot, under 50 loot.

 

Random is the best!

[Zhit]

Indeed, having add ons in WoW made that game die.

 

Yes, WOW has died a miserable death at the hands of TOR!! All hail the new king of MMO's.

[Yfelsung]

Or if you are a druid after a patch haha

 

You're not REALLY a tank unless you've got a weapon in one hand and some sort of shield in the other.

 

That's my philosophy.

 

Do you know what will happen if they give us dual specs in SWTOR?

 

I'll have two tank specs, just like I did in WoW.

[ferroz]

I stopped reading your post here.

 

You're a DPSer who just wants to boast.

So... still not a single valid counter argument, and are still stuck on arguing irrelevancies, against strawman, and making ad-hominem attacks, eh?

[Vidrak]

The game is easy mode, who needs a damage meter. PUGs are beating raids. Damage meters are for losers with no self esteem. I could care less about the numbers and more about just playing. Honestly, while I am interested how I am performing, I have no problem with the game not even having a combat log.

 

It takes the focus off of min/maxing and pushes it more towards just enjoying yourself and experimenting. If this game ever implements these stupid *** features that WoW has, I will be gone in a heart beat. Though I am sure I will be gone much before that, as again, the game is easy mode and all the content will be finished inside of 2 months. I am pretty much over all the DPS meters and what not ... it is a game, not a job with the most annoying boss ever.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Vidrak

[Zhit]

do not support downloading programs to help me beat the game.

 

I do not support playing the game with simpletons that make me have to work harder to succeed because they have no idea what works and doesn't work.

[Gohlar]

 

<intentionally obtuse logic>

 

That's the logic of their argument.

 

Not even close. We don't supporting downloading programs to make the game easier.

 

I do not support playing the game with simpletons that make me have to work harder to succeed because they have no idea what works and doesn't work.

 

So don't. What does that have to do with using programs to help you play?

 

fixed that for you as well.

 

addons make the interface less bad; they don't make the game easier.

 

^Unfamiliar with addons apparently^

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar

[Taroen]

I just did...

 

Look if you want to lie to yourself and pretend like it doesn't help you be my guest, but that means you shouldn't care so much about having it implemented.

 

No you didn't.

 

You just keep making the same claim over and over. When people call you out on the utter ridiculous aspect of your claims, you just repeat the claim again.

 

Now you're backpeddling to act like we're saying dps metrics don't help, when we never said any such thing. We told you how they would be helpful, and why.

 

What you have failed to do is show us how recount plays the game for us.

[Spynnal]

I find it really, really funny how many comments here are assuming it's some DPS e-peen thing, and find that offensive, even though they have no clue that's why it was asked for.

 

Leveling a healer. And I'd like meters. So, people take issue at me wanting to maximize how well I heal them? Truly??

 

Do healers even number boast?

 

Zomg, I healed your face off, lolz...

 

There's max one healer per group usually. Who am I racing with???

 

Accept that some people want them for personal improvement. You may not agree it outweighs whatever imagined evils you are fighting against, but some people DO use them for nothing beyond personal improvement.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Spynnal

[aimbotcfg]

Forget need vs want. Addons make progressing through content easier, there is no denying it.

 

I do not support downloading programs to help me beat the game.

 

It leaves the game exactly the same difficulty, it just enables you to SEE whats happening instead of GUESSING and using TRIAL AND ERROR.

 

Option 1 - know what is going on, change appropriately.

 

Option 2 - have no idea whats going on because there is no numerical feedback, change random thing, try again, repeat until a) you luck your way through. b) you fail and give up.

 

You being a fan of option 2 does not give you some skill or intelectual high ground. It makes Darwin and co hate you.

[Truga]

Except that other people shouldn't be forced to stop playing because you don't want to put the effort in to succeed. Its lazy and selfish.

 

Unfortunately, I have the same argument for you, if you want to go there. I want you to figure everything out without recount, using recount is just lazy. Do it like real men do! Yeah!

 

See? Please stop with these silly arguments, as they get us nowhere. Again, I personally want add-ons. Most in my guild (if not all) want them. Most of the people I talked to in PUGs (a much, much better population slice) don't want them. I have a feeling BW is going to go with "most" part of population, and if you really want add-ons, I suggest you start with more convincing arguments.

[AlpsStranger]

Actually, I don't think that at all. For clarification of my genuine position, I fully sympathize with those that want add-ons; having played WoW as a raider, I know their value, their purposes and their value in a raid environment.

 

Cool, I suppose I hadn't read your rather lengthy posts earlier in the thread.

 

 

No post of mine is intended to bring those into question. Frankly, it's an approach to playing a game like WoW or TOR that isn't bad or stupid or wrong; it is, however, very different in its general mindset and conscription of values.

 

Very, very different in its purposes and determinations of importance than the 'other side' that continues to emergently take definitive shape in contrast. Some call it 'the casuals', but that term fails. Some of those lumped as 'casuals' aren't casual at all, but are very avid about other things.

 

I've said this for years. Many people devote huge amounts of time to being "casual." I used to call it "militant casualness."

 

Some might be all about crafting, others about story and immersion or even roleplaying; yet others might be just as avid as the most hardcore raider is about raiding...only about soloing.

 

I don't think hardcore raiders are bad, stupid or wrong for wanting their tools; those tools have purpose and unarguable value to someone that's primarily playing to be the best at raiding as they can be.

 

All true so far.

 

I do think that the two very general, but increasingly defined, mindsets don't play well together, and play increasingly less well together the more they're forced into cohabitation.

 

So don't, but please clearly demarcate the game as "Don't bother to come here if you want to raid." However, MMORPG marketing is nothing if not an attempt to appeal to everyone.

 

I've been a hardcore raider. I've been infuriated by 'the bads' and frustrated to no end by the very sort of people I have kind'e become one of; the kind that don't give a bleep enough to work hard at being excellent.

 

I have, in my time, taken my raiding fairly seriously. WoW was my burrito for doing so, and I lived my own hype; I played other games for different experiences.

 

Cool so far.

 

I also enjoy roleplaying. I've never bothered trying to make WoW be my game to roleplay in; yeah, there are unofficial RP servers, but that's not the WoW mindset. That's not what most people playing WoW are playing WoW for; that's not what the devs are making WoW to basically be all about.

 

I'd be the stupid one to try to make WoW be what it is not, in that respect. As a leveling-into-raiding game, it is excellent, and if you take it for what it is and don't get brainmelty trying to make it and its general playerbase be what it and they are not...you can have a lot of fun with it.

 

TOR is not WoW. It has operations, but they're not like WoW's raids. Mechanically, kinda similar, but the presentation is entirely different.

 

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think a few cutscenes is a fundamentally different design.

 

 

The -mindset- is entirely different, and even if Bioware tries its utmost to be an immersion game and a raid game...they're not going to magically make -people- be different.

 

Raiders will want to raid, and they will want their tools for raiding. They will, with those tools, wipe the floor with the current scaling of difficulty of all challenges, force the hands of devs to make those challenges stiffer, harder and responsive to that degree of precision...and that takes a lot of work and effort.

 

The kind of work and effort they've committed themselves to supporting in the story, for example.

 

Bioware is probably going to have to choose what type of game they're going to be, and if it isn't 'immersive story game', they've committed themselves to wasting a lot of time and money on supporting a model that hardcore raiders won't really care about.

 

See, I disagree here. I think the "roll a lot of alts and play the class quests" model is fundamentally incoherent. I'm skeptical that they can make content at the rate they'd need to for it to work. It's interesting, but I think it's fundamentally impossible to base an MMORPG around it.

 

 

I don't know what Bioware's thinking.

 

Neither do I. The scripted class quests actually significantly hinder roleplaying. The game may exist only to service alt-a-holics.

 

I won't pretend to know things I don't, point in case, but what I -do- know is that they have committed themselves to a standard of delivery and immersion.

 

There's no argument to be had of it; the entire game stands as evidence of how they want the game to be presented. If they try to also foster the same kind of raid environment that WoW has in that model...I predict two things.

 

Hardcore raiders will get sick and tired of all that fluff being packed into all the raids and will rant endlessly on about Bioware being solely responsible for why they've broken the spacebars on XX numbers of keyboards before the game is two years old, being the first.

 

Secondly, the necessary escalation of raid difficulty to keep the hardcore challenged will create the same gulf of disparity between the majority of gamers and the hardcore in being able to do that content at all.

 

This is always the tension though. Isn't it usually resolved by releasing the raid and then making it easier to allow more people in "behind the curve?"

 

And then they'll just be repeating the mistake WoW's been trying to bridge for years; the kind of thing their dungeon finder and raid finder stand as unarguable testament to their acknowledgement of as a problem needing address.

 

When only about 5% of your playerbase ever sees the content you're providing as endgame material; the culmination of everyone's efforts throughout the entire game; something is wrong.

 

How does it wind up like that? Failure to account for different playstyles and degrees of commitment, frankly.

 

We'll see I guess.

 

So no, I do not think that add-on enabled servers would be terrible places at all. In fact, I think a segregation might make them much nicer places, as well as their counterpart of add-on disabled servers, because two increasingly oppositional styles of gameplay are not being forced into proximity on the same servers.

 

They could, in fact, escalate difficulty all they need to keep up with the most hardcore of hardcore on add-on enabled servers...and tailor difficulties to be more vanilla and 'normal' mode on add-on disabled servers.

 

If they want to service both general styles, they're not going to be able to do it with the same cake. The 'sides' have gotten too definitive; the cultures have become too defined, and they are different.

 

They could service both. But they'll be smarter to offer the folks that want cake the cake, and the folks that want steak the steak. Offering both steak-flavored cake will only piss them both off and leave everyone dissatisfied.

 

Follow my analogy there?

 

I guess I follow you, but I don't think it will happen. First off, there's a major hole in it. What's to stop a hardcore guild from using theorycraft developed on the hardcore servers to brutally trivialize everything on the "softcore" servers?

[zolthie]

I agree that addons don't play for you and that they should be supported in general, if for nothing more than better interface and player comfort. BUT to say they don't make the game easier... that is pure denial and laughable. Knowing the optimal rotation, makes the game easier, being able to bind heals to your mouse in a way that works better than the current possibilities makes the game easier. Being alerted of what is on cooldown or what is happening around you in a more visible manner makes it easier.

 

That isn't debatable, what is debatable is whether increased player comfort and knowledge are bad things. To me being able to setup things the way I want them so I'm more comfortable and transition between things better is a good thing, comfort based ease isn't the bad kind imo. The bad kind is the kind where it removes needing awareness and general skill.

 

Yes, of course you will deal more damage, heal better or whatever if you know your optimal rotation and can execute it while still focusing on moving out of the fire what what not, that's a good thing is it not? Or should everyone just do 50% of their damage, instead of 100% of what they are capable of because of...?? nothing?

 

We should use no binds, no addons, **** even have half your monitored blackened out.

 

Stupid arguments zzz.

[Raelstrom]

No, I do not support these kinds of gadgets in the game. It makes for a far too homogenized play style where everyone has to have the same equipment, same spec, etc. to get the "best" numbers. Play the game and stop stroking your numbers. Playing is the fun part.

[vonWolfenstein]

Lets get rid of health bars too while we are at it. I mean info makes the game too easy right. You'll know you're dead when you drop.

 

I agree sarcastically.

[SgtSplacker]

I have mixed feelings on this one. On one side I see how people use those logs negatively by only grouping with good players. On the other hand it is alot of fun to tweak your char to top the charts.

 

I say to implement something similar to recount, but to also make it very easy for less experienced players to run instances by implementing a better LFG tool that ports you directly to ANY flashpoint. Like this everyone is always able to enjoy the content they want and the progression team can see the numbers they live by also.

 

The only real issue I can see here is that bad players will be singled out, and now everyone will need to have the cookie cutter top DPS spec required for raiding.

[Jahor]

I'll save YOU the trouble.

 

Every boss at the current endgame has a minimum dps requirement. Metrics for tanks and healers are fairly simple. If the tank dies, one of them screwed up somewhere. But there is currently no way to measure the performance of our dps, and dps is key in every single boss fight at endgame.

 

It's not about bragging. People that stroke their e-peen with recount are just as bad or worse than people who can't be bothered to improve their performance and show up expecting to muddle through everything. Both of those types of players are not welcome in decent raiding guilds.

 

To solve this problem take a stop watch. If the boss isn't at 50% at X time your DPS sucks.

Check equip of your DPS, ask for his skill trees and /kick the one you don't like.

No need for ingame e-meter tools.

 

A hand full want it to compensate for whatever and so all other should suffer under this bane.

[xO_om]

Yes for Recount:

 

I am absolutely dying to get a read on my own damage in each spec, and using certain rotations, so that I can be an optimal contributor to my guild.

[Taroen]

I stopped reading your post here.

 

You're a DPSer who just wants to boast.

 

I'm actually a tank...

 

Shows you how much your assumptions are worth.

[Gohlar]

No you didn't.

 

You just keep making the same claim over and over. When people call you out on the utter ridiculous aspect of your claims, you just repeat the claim again.

 

Now you're backpeddling to act like we're saying dps metrics don't help, when we never said any such thing. We told you how they would be helpful, and why.

 

What you have failed to do is show us how recount plays the game for us.

 

You've never learned to play a game on your own so it's impossible for you to understand apparently.

 

You can also use recount to see another person's rotation. Instant how to play lesson.

 

Think man...

Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar

[zolthie]

I have mixed feelings on this one. On one side I see how people use those logs negatively by only grouping with good players. On the other hand it is alot of fun to tweak your char to top the charts.

 

I say to implement something similar to recount, but to also make it very easy for less experienced players to run instances by implementing a better LFG tool that ports you directly to ANY flashpoint. Like this everyone is always able to enjoy the content they want and the progression team can see the numbers they live by also.

 

The only real issue I can see here is that bad players will be singled out, and now everyone will need to have the cookie cutter top DPS spec required for raiding.

 

But since only 1% of the population is "elitist jerks", getting a group, ops or even a guild that isn't should be super easy, no?

[TheHauntingBard]

I'm actually a tank...

 

Shows you how much your assumptions are worth.

 

Even worse, tank that wants to brag about DPS!

Sorry had to post it else he would and it would have gone on for a few pages.

[zolthie]

You've never learn to play a game on your own so it's impossible for you to understand apparently.

 

Yet, here we are, dominating every end game encounter swtor has.

[Dawning_Enmity]

Let me say this...

 

1st its not a version of Recount, its not a "damage meter" its a parser... Parsers have been around since the 1st MMO, reading the combat logs ect.

 

Wow's version absolutely ruined the game. People would put extra strain on the healers for that extra DPS.

 

I could go on forever but a parser = creation of horrible DPS, the end.

[vonWolfenstein]

No, I do not support these kinds of gadgets in the game. It makes for a far too homogenized play style where everyone has to have the same equipment, same spec, etc. to get the "best" numbers. Play the game and stop stroking your numbers. Playing is the fun part.

 

From this I can only assume you think it is fun to not know which of fellow players fail every time making the hard operation boss impossible to kill. Either that or you have not thought it through.