Space Combat in The Old Republic (continued from pre launch)

[theninthlife]

To play devil's advocate here, I have a feeling that the developers of this game were under time constraints to make release deadlines.

 

That being said, there is no reason to leave us in the dark on this unless there was never any intention to add or upgrade this to start.

 

Of all the things wrong with SWG, JTL was NOT one of them. There were many flaws and it was not a perfect system by any stretch but even so, it was still a fantastic aspect of the game.

 

For those who have not played it Ill summarize the differences;

 

JTL had (among other things)

 

-A variety of ships with different base performance stats so that players could choose their preference of ship

-Customization kits to allow players up to 9 different options of paint styles and dozens of options of paint colors

-Ability to customize the name of each and every ship flown

-Interchangeable part options allowing a player to choose how the ship performed by changing out parts

-Reverse engineering of looted parts to allow players upgrade their equipment

-POB ships where multiple players could ride along and join in group combat

-About a dozen space areas where players could explore and engage in quests and random pvp/pve

 

SWTOR has

 

-One ship

-One direction of travel

-Zero control of the ship

-Almost no customization options (by comparison)

 

SWTOR is supposed to be the cutting edge of MMO's but not only did it fall short of expectations in space, it took the absolute worst possible option available. Of all the problems with SWG, Bioware disgarded one of the only things they should have used as a standard of comparison.

 

The tubes are fine for those who enjoy them. I personally spent about 5 mins in one and will never do it again. For those of us who played JTL or any other 3D space sim, its about the same as being told to be happy about a moped after we have been driving a Ferrari for 8 years.

 

The coding is there......Lucas Arts has access to everything that was created by SWG. Change the skins, make it smaller, fix the loopholes and add it. Do that and SWTOR will solidify itself in the annals of MMO history as the msot advanced and diverse game to date.

 

All the time waiting for this game and suddenly the EMU is looking more appealing every day.

[Azzras]

Wow, this is still going?

 

While I still feel that there is nothing wrong with wanting more multiplayer content in a pay-to-play multiplayer game... While playing TOR I have noticed that this game has some major problems in, and shortcomings with, its design. Addressing those problems should probably take precedence over adding multiplayer space combat.

 

The "primary gameplay experience" is way too linear, and way too short, just for starters. BioWare has their work cut out for them and until they can whip the fundamentals into shape... Well, multiplayer space combat should probably wait for an xpac.

 

I was under the impression that SC was worked on by a different division.

[Galius]

Wow, this is still going?

 

While I still feel that there is nothing wrong with wanting more multiplayer content in a pay-to-play multiplayer game... While playing TOR I have noticed that this game has some major problems in, and shortcomings with, its design. Addressing those problems should probably take precedence over adding multiplayer space combat.

 

The "primary gameplay experience" is way too linear, and way too short, just for starters. BioWare has their work cut out for them and until they can whip the fundamentals into shape... Well, multiplayer space combat should probably wait for an xpac.

 

And as we have said before many times...

 

That's fine.. JUST TELL US. If they came out and said, "We will be adding full control space combat in the future as either a free or paid expansion." many of us would be content.

[SirRobin]

I was under the impression that SC was worked on by a different division.

 

TOR's space content was made in Edmonton instead of Austin. Which by itself casts doubts on further expansions of this part since we don't know if that team has moved on to other projects or not. Austin is for TOR, not Edmonton.

 

And as we have said before many times...

 

That's fine.. JUST TELL US. If they came out and said, "We will be adding full control space combat in the future as either a free or paid expansion." many of us would be content.

 

Don't forget how tight lipped BioWare has a tendency of being. It used to be almost a "if I told you I would have to kill you" sort of thing with them. They've actually opened up a lot with TOR but I imagine old habits die hard.

 

Mumorpugers are pretty much "works in progress" for most of their shelf life. I imagine its on the "wall of crazy" but until the head honchos are confident that TOR is going to remain "hot," hardly a sure thing, I doubt they want to risk rocking the boat.

 

Which overhauling space combat would be to some of the folks already going funny colors over the relative shortage of endgame content.

Edited March 2, 2012 by SirRobin

[Azzras]

TOR's space content was made in Edmonton instead of Austin. Which by itself casts doubts on further expansions of this part since we don't know if that team has moved on to other projects or not. Austin is for TOR, not Edmonton.

 

 

 

Don't forget how tight lipped BioWare has a tendency of being. It used to be almost a "if I told you I would have to kill you" sort of thing with them. They've actually opened up a lot with TOR but I imagine old habits die hard.

 

Mumorpugers are pretty much "works in progress" for most of their shelf life. I imagine its on the "wall of crazy" but until the head honchos are confident that TOR is going to remain a hit, I doubt they want to risk rocking the boat.

 

Which overhauling space combat would be to some of the folks already going funny colors over the relative shortage of endgame content.

 

I would say adding full control space combat would definitely benefit this game.

What other MMO out there offers SW:BF2 style space combat system?

It could really attract a lot of players.

[SirRobin]

I would say adding full control space combat would definitely benefit this game.

What other MMO out there offers SW:BF2 style space combat system?

It could really attract a lot of players.

 

Absolutely, and help keep the customers they already have. Of course getting BioWare to see things that way is... well...

[VonAlex]

Yeah.. This is mostly a gound based MMO and I respect that and enjoy the ground based part....

 

But I dont understand why they didnt leave the space aspect out of the game untill they were ready to deliver a real space experience rather than the arcade minigame..

Then we could just as well have other mini games like "tank-warfare" on ground just as arcade as this..

 

But are they willing to delete a whole part of the game and then completely replace it if they introuce complete free space roam?

[Phenyr]

TLDR: I love SWTOR so far but wish for more meaningfull space content SOMEDAY down the road.

 

 

 

3D Space Combat:

 

Freelancer

 

 

Pretty much this. Freelancer was one of a kind. I still play on Winamp the OST from Freelancer while doing the space combat missions in ToR xD

[shepardcomander]

That being said, there is no reason to leave us in the dark on this unless there was never any intention to add or upgrade this to start.

 

All the time waiting for this game and suddenly the EMU is looking more appealing every day.

 

You are very perceptive. They announce "something" is in the works months ago but then go right back to silence. Either they have nothing or this "something" isn't even worthy of Bioware's hype machine's words.

[Deewe]

To play devil's advocate here, I have a feeling that the developers of this game were under time constraints to make release deadlines.

 

That being said, there is no reason to leave us in the dark on this unless there was never any intention to add or upgrade this to start.

 

Of all the things wrong with SWG, JTL was NOT one of them. There were many flaws and it was not a perfect system by any stretch but even so, it was still a fantastic aspect of the game.

 

For those who have not played it Ill summarize the differences;

 

JTL had (among other things)

 

-A variety of ships with different base performance stats so that players could choose their preference of ship

-Customization kits to allow players up to 9 different options of paint styles and dozens of options of paint colors

-Ability to customize the name of each and every ship flown

-Interchangeable part options allowing a player to choose how the ship performed by changing out parts

-Reverse engineering of looted parts to allow players upgrade their equipment

-POB ships where multiple players could ride along and join in group combat

-About a dozen space areas where players could explore and engage in quests and random pvp/pve

 

SWTOR has

 

-One ship

-One direction of travel

-Zero control of the ship

-Almost no customization options (by comparison)

 

SWTOR is supposed to be the cutting edge of MMO's but not only did it fall short of expectations in space, it took the absolute worst possible option available. Of all the problems with SWG, Bioware disgarded one of the only things they should have used as a standard of comparison.

 

The tubes are fine for those who enjoy them. I personally spent about 5 mins in one and will never do it again. For those of us who played JTL or any other 3D space sim, its about the same as being told to be happy about a moped after we have been driving a Ferrari for 8 years.

 

The coding is there......Lucas Arts has access to everything that was created by SWG. Change the skins, make it smaller, fix the loopholes and add it. Do that and SWTOR will solidify itself in the annals of MMO history as the msot advanced and diverse game to date.

 

All the time waiting for this game and suddenly the EMU is looking more appealing every day.

Compared to JTL X-Wing series had:

- A much better UI

- Good flight dynamics

- Excellent ship management

- A good story

- Great combat scenarios

 

That and it was very easy to jump in and difficult to master.

 

Now JTL had a good ship customization.

[Tarka]

Yeah.. This is mostly a gound based MMO and I respect that and enjoy the ground based part....

 

But I dont understand why they didnt leave the space aspect out of the game untill they were ready to deliver a real space experience rather than the arcade minigame..

Then we could just as well have other mini games like "tank-warfare" on ground just as arcade as this..

 

But are they willing to delete a whole part of the game and then completely replace it if they introuce complete free space roam?

 

Thing is, what would be the point of removing the Tunnel shooter? What good would that actually serve? Furthermore, is there an actual need to completely replace it?

 

Don't get me wrong, as my sig indicates, I'm all for a form of "full control" space combat, but removing the Tunnel shooter is a little "heavy handed". After all, the work is completely on the tunnel shooter, the devs can't recoup the time and effort they spent on it. They may as well just put it to some use.

 

Removing the Tunnel shooter and then replacing it with "full control" space combat would be like removing all solo based PVE content with group based PVP content. When in actuality, both types of gameplay can exist in the same game. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

In actual fact, including both could potentially yield better results than just having one or the other in the game. Because each can appeal to a different type of player.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Tarka

[Evray]

Thing is, what would be the point of removing the Tunnel shooter? What good would that actually serve? Furthermore, is there an actual need to completely replace it?

 

Don't get me wrong, as my sig indicates, I'm all for a form of "full control" space combat, but removing the Tunnel shooter is a little "heavy handed". After all, the work is completely on the tunnel shooter, the devs can't recoup the time and effort they spent on it. They may as well just put it to some use.

 

Removing the Tunnel shooter and then replacing it with "full control" space combat would be like removing all solo based PVE content with group based PVP content. When in actuality, both types of gameplay can exist in the same game. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

In actual fact, including both could potentially yield better results than just having one or the other in the game. Because each can appeal to a different type of player.

 

Well, they could roll out an entirely new patch for it. Redo the entire thing if they wanted to. Tie Fighter is nothing on a computer in this day and age. They could easily take a similar system, upgrade the graphics and leave it at that. Add in some scenarios and fights and your done. Add in some new random content to beef it up every once in a while and you've got yourself a free open space combat.

 

I doubt it would take very long to do or cost them very much money. I'm a video game progammer. If I had access to their space combat, a bit of time and resources I could make better space combat than this.

 

I mean, if they don't drop the rail shooter altogether, they can expand on it and still make it open ended.

 

Or your probably right, they could have both.

 

I mean I am not asking to go mine stuff and race with comets. But Star Wars isn't called Ground Wars. In every single movie and almost every single book in the entire Star Wars Universe there is some sort of space combat.

 

To reduce such a huge part of the series down to a mini-game is kind of insulting. Don't you think?

 

I am honestly surprised Lucas didn't throw a temper tantrum over it.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Evray

[VonAlex]

Well, they could roll out an entirely new patch for it. Redo the entire thing if they wanted to. Tie Fighter is nothing on a computer in this day and age. They could easily take a similar system, upgrade the graphics and leave it at that. Add in some scenarios and fights and your done. Add in some new random content to beef it up every once in a while and you've got yourself a free open space combat.

 

I doubt it would take very long to do or cost them very much money. I'm a video game progammer. If I had access to their space combat, a bit of time and resources I could make better space combat than this.

 

I mean, if they don't drop the rail shooter altogether, they can expand on it and still make it open ended.

 

Or your probably right, they could have both.

 

I mean I am not asking to go mine stuff and race with comets. But Star Wars isn't called Ground Wars. In every single movie and almost every single book in the entire Star Wars Universe there is some sort of space combat.

 

To reduce such a huge part of the series down to a mini-game is kind of insulting. Don't you think?

 

I am honestly surprised Lucas didn't throw a temper tantrum over it.

 

 

Well its quite insulting having that sorry space game... in a space based theme right?

I cant understand that Lucas Arts havent revoked the license first of all.. So I do hope that BW sometime get a real spacegame up and running...

 

But I dont think that this rail shooter and a real space game can coexist because they still have to take it into account when updating.. and of nobody uses it?

 

Well those ppl that dont care about star wars spacing prolly just use their ship to get from planet to planet anyway? space shooter or not

[shepardcomander]

Well its quite insulting having that sorry space game... in a space based theme right?

I cant understand that Lucas Arts havent revoked the license first of all.. So I do hope that BW sometime get a real spacegame up and running...

 

But I dont think that this rail shooter and a real space game can coexist because they still have to take it into account when updating.. and of nobody uses it?

 

Well those ppl that dont care about star wars spacing prolly just use their ship to get from planet to planet anyway? space shooter or not

 

I want to see both exist. Then we'd have definitive metrics regarding which one is better.

[nosuchname]

There are only two things that will bring me back once my sub runs out at the end of this month. A massive legacy experience boost for alts that allows me to level through pvp and class story alone and avoid all those useless trash quests or a proper 3d space game.

 

With as badly as they've borked nearly everything else though, I won't be wasting much more than a tiny bit of hope. WoW taught me well. You never pay until they give you what you want to play.

[VonAlex]

Hmm is it possible to rewrite the engine for space fight and make it free-controlled and keep the quite acceptable graphics in the space part of the game?

 

Or would they have to do a whole new engine for space fight?

[GinnoTaki]

EA and good business sense have never really been in the same room with each other never mind same sentence.

 

Years ago they had a beta out for Multi-Player Battletech : 3025. It was amazing. Tons of fun.

 

They cancelled it before it ever gold in order to give us gems like Majestic (flop), Motor City Online (Flop), Earth and Beyond (Flop)....

 

So now they have in thier grubby little hands one of the most sought after IPs and they refuse to abuse it to it's full potential...

Hi, Galius - glad to see you still here. And LOL - nice insert. That's what we were talking about in pre-launch thread - EA management has no feeling of business and audience demands at all. Last time that was clearly confirmed on example of BF3.

Edited March 3, 2012 by GinnoTaki

[shepardcomander]

Hi, Galius - glad to see you still here. And LOL - nice insert. That's what we were talking about in pre-launch thread - EA management has no feeling of business and audience demands at all. Last time that was clearly confirmed on example of BF3.

 

And even then, BF3 still has better ship combat than tor.

[Destoroyah]

It's my opinion that space combat should be more intigrated with the story. Like having too destroy the defences on hammer station before landing a (group 3-axis fight), or trying to escape/penetrate a enemy blockade (Tube Shooter).

 

It woundn't be star wars without stuff similiar to the battle of the death stars.

 

I think both styles of space combat are viable all depending on the context of the situations.

 

They're missing out on a key facet that makes this game star wars, not to mention the missed story opertunities.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Destoroyah

[Tarka]

Hmm is it possible to rewrite the engine for space fight and make it free-controlled and keep the quite acceptable graphics in the space part of the game?

 

Or would they have to do a whole new engine for space fight?

 

The HeroEngine is apparently quite versatile in being a platform to make a variety of different styles of gameplay. Including space combat.

 

This is a video of rough alpha footage depicting space combat using the HeroEngine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt-Jk3TmodY

 

 

One sticking point is that the Bioware devs parted company with the creators of the HeroEngine soon after they purchased the rights to use it in TOR. At that point, there were chunks missing out of the engine, documentation missing, etc, etc and BWA chose to write the missing bits themselves.

 

So, how close the version of the HeroEngine is to the one being supplied currently by Idea Fabrik (the current owners of the HeroEngine tech) we don't know.

 

 

I think the biggest hurdle is trying to persuade the devs to even consider looking into the situation. Remember these are devs which think day/night cycles (a built in feature of the HeroEngine), swimming and other MMO type elements aren't needed.

[Tarka]

Well, they could roll out an entirely new patch for it. Redo the entire thing if they wanted to. Tie Fighter is nothing on a computer in this day and age. They could easily take a similar system, upgrade the graphics and leave it at that. Add in some scenarios and fights and your done. Add in some new random content to beef it up every once in a while and you've got yourself a free open space combat.

 

I doubt it would take very long to do or cost them very much money. I'm a video game progammer. If I had access to their space combat, a bit of time and resources I could make better space combat than this.

 

I mean, if they don't drop the rail shooter altogether, they can expand on it and still make it open ended.

 

Or your probably right, they could have both.

 

I mean I am not asking to go mine stuff and race with comets. But Star Wars isn't called Ground Wars. In every single movie and almost every single book in the entire Star Wars Universe there is some sort of space combat.

 

To reduce such a huge part of the series down to a mini-game is kind of insulting. Don't you think?

 

I am honestly surprised Lucas didn't throw a temper tantrum over it.

 

I agree with your sentiments about space combat being reduced to "Ground Wars". To me, the game is missing a major part of the IP which helped to establish the Star Wars IP in the first place. At the moment, the concept of space combat in TOR feels like a tacky tagged on feature. It's sorry to see space combat in this state, when you have the likes of James Ohlen who apparently is a huge Empire Strikes back fan, and that film features one of the many memorable space combat moments from the game (the millenium falcon in the asteroid field).

 

The thing is, one only needs to take the shuttle between the fleet ships to get the feeling of being IN a virtual "universe" that transcends just running around on the surface of a few planets.

 

This is how I see the situation as it stands now:

• The models for the cap ships are already in the game. They have the right proportions to other ships such as the shuttle and fighter craft.
  
• The shuttle, "fighter" craft and even our own house ships are the right size and sat in various hangars both on the fleet AND in different flashpoints (Black Talon and the Boarding Party instances have hangars with fighters in them).
  
• The music and the sounds are in the game already (in the Tunnel Shooter).
  
• Various backgrounds are complete (used in the Tunnel Shooter).
  

So, in theory, the areas needing attention would be:

• Playfield design with automatic actions when a player reaches a "soft" boundary (i.e. the pilot says "we're getting too far from the action" and the ship turns around).
  
• NPC AI.
  
• Waypoint and trigger point systems (not exactly innovative, the game already uses them in "ground based" missions).
  

 

Content-wise, I think we would need at least:

• 1 soloable PVE instance
  
• 1 group based PVE instance (harder mods, better rewards).
  
• 1 PVP instance.
  

Both the PVE and the PVP scenarios could actually take inspiration from other encounters in the game (the battle above the Foundry for the PVE scenario, and the cap ships above Alderaan for the PVP scenario).

 

The system should also have a tutorial scenario to help players become accustomed to "full control" space combat and flight. Maybe that "tutorial" could be depicted flying around the fleet (flying to waypoints, shooting derelict space debris for target practice, etc, etc).

Edited March 3, 2012 by Tarka

[GinnoTaki]

he-he, Tarka - 1 more veteran in our little lobby.

[Tarka]

he-he, Tarka - 1 more veteran in our little lobby.

 

Maybe we'll get to hear something about space combat during the "summit"?

 

....

 

ROFL. yeah, right! They'll be too busy focusing on marketting the infamous 1.2 patch to bother discussing much else, as if it's some kind of miracle that will let TOR reach ultimate perfection.

 

Besides, it took them nearly 3 months to implement /roll functionality.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Tarka

[Galius]

Hi, Galius - glad to see you still here. And LOL - nice insert. That's what we were talking about in pre-launch thread - EA management has no feeling of business and audience demands at all. Last time that was clearly confirmed on example of BF3.

 

I think the only one more famous in those threads... or infamous even... was Tarka

 

Well, there was Darthmeerkat... but we won't go there will we? Strange he isn't here really... would have thought he'd be telling us to, "Wait a few more months until you judge it..."

 

The only thing keeping me playing at this point is WZ PvP. I'm pre-50 so it's fun but once I hit 50... well I just hope we have good space combat by then.

[Tebryn_Daltar]

The first thing I did when I got my ship is go to a space mission, I was excited and I loved it, and while I still like the content they have now it is *very* dull.

 

Even around level 25 or so on my first character I was wondering with friends about co-op SC, people manning turrets, or having a Chewy/Han set up, one piloting with some weapons control, with Chewy controlling main weapon systems, and then you have Luke on the turrets firing at targets the guys in the cockpit cant even see (It'd help with Capital Ships and Stations to say the least... So many missions where I fly right past the thing i've been trying to shoot so many times...)

 

About wether or not to keep Rail as well as Free, I think it would be better with both. There are those who rarely do SC missions and having a Free would likely take too much time to their minds, and while I would squeel knowing I can customize and earn/buy new ships with stats to fly, I would be alright with Free Flight being implimented.

 

On the idea about space missions going into a station or ship (Hammer Station, as the old example was and i'll use again) perhaps just give the player the option to skip it if they don't like SC? SWB2's campaign gave you the option to skip space missions, cause lets admit it, a lot of people see this thread, roll their eyes, and move on.

 

Well... That's it for me I guess, hope this all works out!