15 Days between Love and Hate, Sincerely - A Fan Boy

[Ashes_Arizona]

I'm not going to count the fact that I was in day one Early Access here and just sort of count the days I've actually played on.

 

I played in beta, I played a lot of beta in several squadrons including the final stress betas. I always made a point of never taking characters beyond a certain point so there would be fresh content for me when the game was released.

 

On day one, I loved this game. Every new thing about it that I ran into made me go..oh wow thats so cool.

 

By day fifteen I had reached level 50 on my first character of choice and realized that my entire existence now revolves around grinding "dailies" for "commendations" so I can get armor.

 

And right there, on day 15, I lost interest. I marched my Sith Lord right back on to my Fury, launched myself off into space, and logged out to the character screen to create a new character and try out a new class story.

 

Simple facts, this stupid hamster wheel/carrot on a stick gear grind "end game" might be acceptable to the median average MMO player, but intelligent players aren't challenged by it and when a game becomes a "chore" to even try to squeeze one more little bit of enjoyment or advancement out of it...you have failed, completely, to even try to innovate.

 

Whats even more fun? All your "epic" armor? Completely unmodifiable. Except for weapons. Thanks but no thanks I'll stick with my nice set of modifiable armor so I'm at least patronizing your drastically ill treated crafting system. You know, the one you sort of hamstringed entirely in favor of the old tried and true "gear grind"? Yeah that one, the one that has crafting professions that are completely worthless or professions that have completely missing schematics that are causing huge holes in the economy where people that should be making these items from schematic cannot because you all at BioWare didn't have the intestinal fortitude to actually give the static stat gear system the finger entirely because you were afraid you were going to scare off a bunch of money with something too complex?

 

Of the millions of players World of Warcraft has had, I was one of them, and guess what, I stopped being one the minute I got into "gear grind" mode at the end game.

 

I am a BioWare fan, I am a Star Wars fan, and you got too much World of Warcraft in my Old Republic. And you did it because you were cowards, because those of us that were in beta got to see you trying new approaches, that we liked..that we fought for as ardently as we could without breaking our NDA's when you started dumbing them down, and regardless of your meaningless platitudes to the beta testers and the general public at large, you still crippled this game into nothing but a boring WoW Clone with a story stapled onto its back.

 

I will not grind for your crappy gear, especially since you can't seem to figure out how you shipped a game where all your torso armor meshes look like a low rez mess from 1998. You can take your Rakatan, Tionese, Columi and all your stupid PvP gear and shove it, collectively, up the cloaca's of whatever amphibians you hired to model it and design it.

 

I will play my stories, I will finish those stories, and then those characters will go into deep freeze while I play the next story and guess what BioWare? You'd better be pretty fast on the draw with more story because you have damn well not done a thing to beyond that. And that is just how it is.

 

TOR is very much a case of failing completely on the last hurdle. All this creativity, all this wonderful story telling, all the compelling reasons to play the game, and once you reach 50, you guys couldn't pull one single original idea out of your hats. Right back to WoW, grinding dailies for the phat loots.

 

Sorry to add another rage filled post to a forum filled with rage filled posts, but I've been needing to get this off my chest since August of 2010.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona

[Sorgrim]

Well, we certainly agree on the grinding aspect of the game. Right now, I'm taking my time with my level 30 BH. I can tell that once I get to 50 and try out end-game, story will take a backseat while the grind resurfaces.

[ViceGat]

I'm not going to count the fact that I was in day one Early Access here and just sort of count the days I've actually played on.

 

I played in beta, I played a lot of beta in several squadrons including the final stress betas. I always made a point of never taking characters beyond a certain point so there would be fresh content for me when the game was released.

 

On day one, I loved this game. Every new thing about it that I ran into made me go..oh wow thats so cool.

 

By day fifteen I had reached level 50 on my first character of choice and realized that my entire existence now revolves around grinding "dailies" for "commendations" so I can get armor.

 

And right there, on day 15, I lost interest. I marched my Sith Lord right back on to my Fury, launched myself off into space, and logged out to the character screen to create a new character and try out a new class story.

 

Simple facts, this stupid hamster wheel/carrot on a stick gear grind "end game" might be acceptable to the median average MMO player, but intelligent players aren't challenged by it and when a game becomes a "chore" to even try to squeeze one little more little bit of enjoyment or advancement out of it...you have failed, completely, to even try to innovate.

 

Whats even more fun? All your "epic" armor? Completely unmodifiable. Except for weapons. Thanks but no thanks I'll stick with my nice set of modifiable armor so I'm at least patronizing your drastically ill treated crafting system. You know, the one you sort of hamstringed entirely in favor of the old tried and true "gear grind"? Yeah that one, the one that has crafting professions that are completely worthless or professions that have completely missing schematics that are causing huge holes in the economy where people that should be making these items from schematic cannot because you all at BioWare didn't have the intestinal fortitude to actually give the static stat gear system the finger entirely because you were afraid you were going to scare off a bunch of money with something too complex?

 

Of the millions of players World of Warcraft has had, I was one of them, and guess what, I stopped being one the minute I got into "gear grind" mode at the end game.

 

I am a BioWare fan, I am a Star Wars fan, and you got too much World of Warcraft in my Old Republic. And you did it because you were cowards, because those of us that were in beta got to see you trying new approaches, that we liked..that we fought for as ardently as we could without breaking our NDA's when you started dumbing them down, and regardless of your meaningless platitudes to the beta testers and the general public at large, you still crippled this game into nothing but a boring WoW Clone with a story stapled onto its back.

 

I will not grind for your crappy gear, especially since you can't seem to figure out how you shipped a game where all your torso armor meshes look like a low rez mess from 1998. You can take your Rakatan, Tionese, Columi and all your stupid PvP gear and shove it, collectively, up the cloaca's of whatever amphibians you hired to model it and design it.

 

I will play my stories, I will finish those stories, and then those characters will go into deep freeze while I play the next story and guess what BioWare? You'd better be pretty fast on the draw with more story because you have damn well not done a thing to beyond that. And that is just how it is.

 

TOR is very much a case of failing completely on the last hurdle. All this creativity, all this wonderful story telling, all the compelling reasons to play the game, and once you reach 50, you guys couldn't pull one single original idea out of your hats. Right back to WoW, grinding dailies for the phat loots.

 

Sorry to add another rage filled post to a forum filled with rage filled posts, but I've been needing to get this off my chest since August of 2010.

 

 

If more end game options become available as time goes by, will you still feel like playing?

Edited January 6, 2012 by ViceGat

[Kashaan]

 

I am a BioWare fan, I am a Star Wars fan, and you got too much World of Warcraft in my Old Republic. And you did it because you were cowards, because those of us that were in beta got to see you trying new approaches, that we liked..that we fought for as ardently as we could without breaking our NDA's when you started dumbing them down, and regardless of your meaningless platitudes to the beta testers and the general public at large, you still crippled this game into nothing but a boring WoW Clone with a story stapled onto its back.

 

 

Can you give examples of some of these things? I'm honestly curious what they had planned that was different and how it changed to be like WoW.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

many people feel this way, and i hope bioware sees it for everyone's sake.

[mattdell]

I'm not going to count the fact that I was in day one Early Access here and just sort of count the days I've actually played on.

 

I played in beta, I played a lot of beta in several squadrons including the final stress betas. I always made a point of never taking characters beyond a certain point so there would be fresh content for me when the game was released.

 

 

I stopped reading the OP after these first 5 lines, because you openly admitted to doing exactly the opposite of what a beta tester is designed to do. The rest of your post is nonsense to me, simply because you failed this game from the very start. You were entrusted to help provide feedback on the aspects of the game, and you deliberately stopped yourself from progressing so that the content would be fresh to you during launch. This isn't a beta tester, its an entitled selfish person who wants it all to themselves.

[Eegorr]

I really agree with this post. Gameplay-wise.... this is WoW with light-sabers, and it's a bit sad. It could be soo much more. I blame EA. ME2 was severely underwhelming as well. I'd take a game that is a bit rough around the edges than a game that tries to play everything safe any day. This 'safe' game is just boring.

 

I'm very much enjoying the story lines and, like you it seems, I will continue playing as long as those keep me interested. By the time they don't, I'm hoping Bioware has added more things into the game that I can enjoy. Otherwise I'll move on -- no biggy.

[Kaphik]

So what exactly do you want for endgame?

[StealthLightning]

Can you give examples of some of these things? I'm honestly curious what they had planned that was different and how it changed to be like WoW.

 

The OP is trying to say he had hoped Bioware had developed some new revolutionary way to keep people playing for extended periods of time and is sad to learn that like every other MMO they resorted to having players grind for gear.

[Eegorr]

I stopped reading the OP after these first 5 lines, because you openly admitted to doing exactly the opposite of what a beta tester is designed to do. The rest of your post is nonsense to me, simply because you failed this game from the very start. You were entrusted to help provide feedback on the aspects of the game, and you deliberately stopped yourself from progressing so that the content would be fresh to you during launch. This isn't a beta tester, its an entitled selfish person who wants it all to themselves.

 

Yeah..... or by starting new characters he tested other parts of the game. No beta tester can test everything, so before you condemn someone you know absolutely nothing about, maybe you should just reread your post.

[ddecay]

What did they have in beta that they removed or dumbed down?

[BaeGeeN]

I don't understand what you're so mad about. You act as if story content was going to be infinite, but there is absolutely no way developers can make stuff at the pace that you play through it. I mean, think about it, you played through all the story content for one class in a grand total of FIFTEEN DAYS after YEARS of development.

 

The "grind" is a service to players to allow them to continue to enjoy the game after reaching max level (which of course benefits Bioware because it keeps people paying). If you're not having fun, then just leave.

[mattdell]

Yeah..... or by starting new characters he tested other parts of the game. No beta tester can test everything, so before you condemn someone you know absolutely nothing about, maybe you should just reread your post.

 

True, no beta tester can test everything. But, to come here crying about an aspect of the game that you were exclusively asked for your input on, after you refused to give said input.. That's just madness. It screams of entitlement and arrogance. He can write all the neatly written, well worded paragraphs that he wants. It doesn't alleviate the fact that he is an immature brat.

 

Its the same as buying a car, without test driving it, after you were offered a month long test drive, and then trying to return the car because it wasn't as advertised. Its nonsensical drivel that needs to stay away from this game before it destroys it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by mattdell

[Duway]

wait, isn't there seven other story lines to enjoy?

[CupieFoxtail]

What kind of endgame do you want?

Genre issues, move along please

[Defiled_Smuggler]

Welcome to the last 7 years where immersion is thrown out a window while it falls helplessly into a fire.

 

Welcome to quest grinding aka click on the glowies, instanced planets (LMAO), instanced e-sports and instanced dungeons. Same old crap since 2004.

[Kashaan]

The OP is trying to say he had hoped Bioware had developed some new revolutionary way to keep people playing for extended periods of time and is sad to learn that like every other MMO they resorted to having players grind for gear.

 

 

No, he specifically stated that some game mechanics were different in Beta, but were changed to be more like WoW.

 

I'm asking him to give examples, because I would like to judge whether the original ideas were better than the "WoW copies".

[ViceGat]

True, no beta tester can test everything. But, to come here crying about an aspect of the game that you were exclusively asked for your input on, after you refused to give said input.. That's just madness. It screams of entitlement and arrogance. He can write all the neatly written, well worded paragraphs that he wants. It doesn't alleviate the fact that he is an immature brat.

 

Its the same as buying a car, without test driving it, after you were offered a month long test drive, and then trying to return the car because it wasn't as advertised. Its nonsensical drivel that needs to stay away from this game before it destroys it.

 

No, this is a theory I've had for awhile, is it even remotely possible that the reason the game has so many bugs, is because some of the beta testers may have been screwing around?

[Ashes_Arizona]

True, no beta tester can test everything. But, to come here crying about an aspect of the game that you were exclusively asked for your input on, after you refused to give said input.. That's just madness. It screams of entitlement and arrogance. He can write all the neatly written, well worded paragraphs that he wants. It doesn't alleviate the fact that he is an immature brat.

 

Its the same as buying a car, without test driving it, after you were offered a month long test drive, and then trying to return the car because it wasn't as advertised. Its nonsensical drivel that needs to stay away from this game before it destroys it.

 

Dude, just...stop. There was a high level character server, and high level characters generated on beta accounts that we tested high level and end game content on.

 

Don't sit here and make assumptions based on things you know nothing about. I tested high level content. What I did not do was run any one single class story from level 1 to 50 in the beta phases I was part of. There was rarely time between beta builds to even achieve that and only a small percentage of beta testers were able to between build wipes. It was only in the last phase of beta before the stress tests that beta characters weren't wiped with new builds.

 

So seriously, I get what you're saying, but you're being very accusatory based on a lot of assumptive thoughts on your part. We did test the end game, we gave feedback on it....we still got this stupid hamster wheel. They didn't listen to us. They didn't care that we didn't like it, all they cared about was that it FUNCTIONED.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona

[Ashes_Arizona]

wait, isn't there seven other story lines to enjoy?

 

Yes and that is what I'm doing, because thats the only part of the game that is even remotely enjoyable.

 

PvP is passingly enjoyable. But its "rewards" process is egregiously grindy and boring. Long as you don't care how long its going to take to get some kind of return on your time for PvPing I suppose you could classify PvP as "fun", as long as you can stand playing Huttball 9 times out of 10.

[ViceGat]

repost Edited January 6, 2012 by ViceGat

[EwokLuvr]

*applause @ OP*

 

I call it "The Box," that special place these companies try to put their players and keep them, and keep them subscribing month after month.

 

I'm not going back in the box. Ever. You can thank WoW for that. I only even tried this game because a friend begged me to but I knew, I knew...

 

And I was right.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EwokLuvr

[Jhonen]

*applause @ OP*

 

I call it "The Box," that special place these companies try to put their players and keep them, and keep them subscribing month after month so they can fill the corporate coffers.

 

I'm not going back in the box. Ever. You can thank WoW for that. I only even tried this game because a friend begged me to but I knew, I knew...

 

And I was right.

 

A vanilla MMO doesn't have infinite end-game content at launch?

 

What... a shock?

[Garodan]

A vanilla MMO doesn't have infinite end-game content at launch?

 

What... a shock?

 

Quiet common sense, go back to your hole!

 

Anyways, it hasn't been a huge surprise for anyone that an MMO that has just launched doesn't have much for end game. Only game I can think of that had a pretty good end game at launch was Rift, and they sacrificed every other aspect of the game to make that possible.

 

 

In the mean time, I'm leveling several characters at once to pace myself for when the content comes in. Got a 33 gunslinger, a 30 commando, and a 20 sentinel, and all and all I'm greatly enjoying my time in swtor.

[Cavadus]

I am a BioWare fan, I am a Star Wars fan, and you got too much World of Warcraft in my Old Republic. And you did it because you were cowards, because those of us that were in beta got to see you trying new approaches, that we liked..that we fought for as ardently as we could without breaking our NDA's when you started dumbing them down, and regardless of your meaningless platitudes to the beta testers and the general public at large, you still crippled this game into nothing but a boring WoW Clone with a story stapled onto its back.

 

This is also my biggest issue with the game. I began beta testing in July just in time for the magical late-July build and it was so *********** frustrating to see them gut system after system which was very well received for extremely dumbed down and WoW-ified iterations.

 

What made things even worse were the devs coming onto the beta forums and simply lying to us about the changes they made.

 

All of that feedback and all of those bug reports were ignored wholesale by Bioware. The entire beta program was an absolute farce and nothing but an internal measure by the team to gather player statistics and data.

 

All one needs to do is remember the outcry when they gutted the awesome mod system, all of the lies fed to us by Reid afterwards in his pathetic attempt at platitudes, and then the infuriating loss of "unify to chest" coloring for armoring because, for whatever reason, Bioware became butt-hurt over the fact that people actually looked good at any stage in the game.

 

I'm L40 now and have never once liked the armor appearance on my Trooper. I'm always three different colors of crap and it's annoying.

 

Oh, and then there's the insanely lame linear gear appearance progression which we didn't have until the later beta builds. In the earlier builds not only could we mod nearly every piece of anything but almost all appearance sets were available at any level post 20.

 

Another thing that always bugged me was Wallace's dev blog about how TOR would supposedly straddle the themepark and sandbox genres. What narcotic was that guy on when he even dared propose TOR have sandbox elements? This game doesn't have one iota of sandbox in it... in fact, I've never played any type of game which is as insanely linear and restrictive as TOR.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Cavadus