Let this be a lesson to every single games developer

[shinyelf]

It's not fair to compare it to WoW in its current state, no. Or is it? Clearly many MMOs that come out now, even the Korean ones, copy aspects of WoW. This one is no exception. Yet they fail to copy all the things that made it good, despite spending way more money on it than Blizzard did on their product originally. Why is that? Because there's fools behind the wheel of the project that need to be canned and replaced immediately aka: the remnants of Mythic, and that George running the project. They'll never admit it, but it's more than likely that they're to blame.

 

It is in no way fair to compare this game to WoW, since Blizzards has had lots of time to perfect the parts of their system that is perfect(not all, but definetly a lot), however Bioware did not havge access to the same data(after all they are competitors), and even though this is a worn down argument Blizzard have used 7 years to perfect some things, so lets wait for the bugs to be fixed and then aim for perfection.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Paralassa
bad content quote

[Jahl]

sorry, we live in the "I must have it now" generation. People dont have patience anymore, everythings got to be their way and right now!

 

I've come to terms with the fact that gaming communities are nothing more than a cespool for people with please me complex's and look how big my epeen is complex.

 

What he said.

[Oberheimz]

I just want to add that you guys need to keep in mind that SWTOR has a wider audience than WoW in a sense, meaning that inexperienced MMO players try it without understanding what an MMO is all about and whining on stuff an experienced MMO player wouldn't even think about. You also need to remember that it's like 100 more likely that an unsatisfied customer whines here than a satisfied one writes a post.

[jdela]

This happens with every single MMO released since I can remember. EQ, AO, DAOC, L2, Horizons, Shadowbane, WoW, CoH, DDO, SWG, Vanguard, WAR, MO, PotBS, Rift, and others I have probably forgotten all have forums that are negative. I have never seen an MMO forum that has been positive. Why?

 

Because people want different things. SWTOR is a perfect example. There are valid complaints that need to be fixed for some people (graphic issues for example, but unfortunately those can be extremely difficult to track down). Other stuff is the I want kind of things.

 

Wants:

 

- Combat dummies

- Damage Logs

- Damage Meters

- Macros

- LFD

- Smaller travel times

- Larger zones (seems contradictory, but okay)

- Dual specs

- Advance clsss respec

 

But not everyone wants those things. I played a game that had a lot of them. It is called Rift. Capital cities were pathetic, well to me, because they were great from a convenience perspective, but the whole entire world lacked character in every way. The world was streamlined. I don't play an RPG for convenience, that is what Angry Birds is for. I play an RPG for the immersion. Sure the palaces in SWTOR have a ton of wasted space. But take away the wasted space and you no longer have a palace. Rift was quest hub to quest hub. They were not places of note, they were specifically there because they were needed to be and nothing more.

 

So ultimately there is no point arguing with people because it comes down to their wants vs your wants which may not be the same thing. People think you need combat dummies and damage meters and macros because other games have it. So does WoW need voice acting because now SWTOR has it? I don't understand why everyone tries to get every game to be exactly like the other ones. It is not like you stay when those changes are made. Look at Rift as a perfect example. They have done pretty much everything that everyone has complained about. In theory because they listened they should have more subs than WoW. In turth, they don't. So why include dual spec in SWTOR when speccing to whatever you want in Rift hasn't helped them win subs?

 

On the other hand, look at WoW. They do what they are going to do and don't take fan feedback as a directive. They have their own idea and vision of the game and implement that. So people are crying about the Kung-Fu panda, but Blizzard knows that you will play because of what they added. If you listen to the crowd, you will provide zero innovation because the crowd only wants what it already has seen and done. Then the crowd gets bored and leaves.

 

So we need to separate complaints from bugs. Bugs need to be squashed, complaints listened to and determined if it fits with the idea of the game as a whole. Vision is important. What do the developers want the game to be? Make that game and ignore the crowd that wants the same thing that never satisfied them in the past anyway. You can't please everyone, but you can make everyone less than satisfied by going down the middle road trying to please everyone.

[pudim]

I got what I want. I was in the beta and knew exactly what I should expect, then bought the game. Many, many other people posted their feelings and thoughts on the beta before the game was released and it was all made available to you.

 

Then I bought the retail copy of TOR.

 

I am enjoying my experience so far. I've been playing with both RL and in-game friends constantly.

 

If you want to admit it or not; Bioware is patching bugs and fixing things. I know you have already canceled and have predicted TOR going FTP within 6 months. I personally will continue to pay for this game, as is, and if Bioware improves upon it I will be all the happier.

 

I couldn't have said it better!

 

People are trying to change the game to their likes, stop it, go find something else to do, enjoy the game as it is now, not as you wished it to be

Edited January 6, 2012 by pudim

[jdela]

Well then that lesson needs to be put into practice by tiny development houses that build tiny mmos.

 

You don't spend 100's of millions of dollars and then "make the game you want". If you're spending that kind of money, then a bit of that money better get spent on finding out what everyone else wants, and trying to get as much of what everyone else wants into your game.

 

It's no big "whaaa?" when it comes to what Blizz did (as a perfect example of that). Like it or hate it, they spent a LOT on that game, including the money spent on doing their homework so that they could cherry pick the features from other games that players clearly liked. Then they didn't get hung up on some foolish "vision of our game" mantra, and found a way to make those features work in their game.

 

Provide one example of Blizzard doing focus groups to determine the direction of the game? It was not at release because we were all UO, EQ, or DAOC fanboys. The giant exclamation points, the art direction, and other things annoyed us. Maybe it is the Mists of Pandoria where they are caving to the pressure? Nope, Blizzard says you will like it. Blizzard is implementing the vision of Blizzard, not of the fans.

 

You know how many focus groups Steve Jobs and Apple did with the iPod, iPhone, and iPad? Zero, zip, zilch, none. You know who used to listen to everyone? Microsoft. You think your opinion matters, that you know better, but you just want what you already did. But you already did it, so why repeat it? I can give you a game that has the features you want, they already exist. Why are you not playing it?

 

The best creations come from something you are passionate about and you would use or play. So if you are implementing something that you don't believe in, you think it is going to work out well?

[iiXarvik]

Why shouldn't we get what we want, once we pay for it? It doesn't make sense to buy something, then wait for it

 

If you buy an ice cream, do you expect it to be a cheeseburger?

 

What you pay for is what you get. Read into the things you want to buy before you blow $60 on it and rage about how it's not what you want.

[Tiaa]

There is something to be said for checking if the product matches your expectations before buying it. Now while personally there are some changes I would like, none of them are game-breaking for me.

 

I agree.

 

We should have just stolen the game first then if we didn't like it return it.

 

 

If you buy an ice cream, do you expect it to be a cheeseburger?

 

Worse. Analogy. Ever.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiaa

[Ditoxic]

I have to agree with the OP here, the big thing thats wrong with the community is that no one will take the time to listen to anothers opinions without immediately labeling them into a certain group. Bioware is clearly listening to a point to the forums, and that gives us a whole a small amount of creative control. It may be the smallest things, but if something you really wanted to see gets implemented becuase people on the forums ask for it in one voice, well thats something amazing. The community needs to stop treating each other as hostile, ignore the people who condemn the game and make rediculous remarks based off no merit, and praise the ones with good ideas and fun suggestions.

 

I find it so odd that the people here are so hostile, when I've found the people on my server so helpful and fun to raid with. This isn't a place that should be avoided and seen as hostile, it should be a place people can go to share experiences, gripes, and suggestions to better the game that allot of people are enjoying.

[knatx]

Worse. Analogy. Ever.

Not in this case its not. The kiddies wanted WoW in space and went nuts when they realized it wasn't what they wanted. In short they bought ice cream thinking they where going to get a cheeseburger. If you go back say a 100 pages you will see how many kiddies wanted TOR to be WoW in space with their list of demands.

[Vinushka]

It is in no way fair to compare this game to WoW, since Blizzards has had lots of time to perfect the parts of their system that is perfect(not all, but definetly a lot), however Bioware did not havge access to the same data(after all they are competitors), and even though this is a worn down argument Blizzard have used 7 years to perfect some things, so lets wait for the bugs to be fixed and then aim for perfection.

 

 

You missed the part where I said WoW was smoother, and less glitchy than this game on release. Not current WoW. Vanilla WoW. I was there, rockin' out on Bloodscalp, long before the MC and Blackwing Lair farm status days. We didn't have these problems. We didn't see models and cuts in the landscape with no textures or being see-through. I didn't get a black screen lock-up on my PC for having SLI on. SLI just didn't work. Shadows weren't composed of blocky blobs. World PVP was a blast with almost every class except Warlock unless your name was Drakedog. They had a day and night timecycle I believe. It was so immersive when it came out, that it's possible I'm recalling that part wrong, but I'm pretty sure they had day and night. It wasn't anything advanced like GTAIV ENB series where the placement of the sun would alter the placement of shadows or anything, but it was enough to like hear the crickets and **** when the moon came out.

 

 

A lot of these key issues are just too difficult to fix fast. The engine is a major problem. My biggest worry is that they'll just not be able to fix everything quick enough and the playerbase is going to drop substantially. Also Bioware didn't create this engine. Here's your proof: http://www.heroengine.com/

 

They bought it from some no-name developer newbs that I've never heard of, and I've played a crap ton of low to high-end games in the passed years. This is the first time this engine is ever seeing the light of day, and it's a damn disaster. It's supposed to allow the owner to like edit it easily, and whatnot, and house 100,000 people per zone max. Have you seen what happens to the fleet when there's just 200 people in it? Yeah. Somebody at Bioware got conned hardcore by whoever pitched them that engine, but regardless, it was a terrible business move to decide to stick with that one when there's so many better options out there. I'd of rather seen this crap on the latest Unreal Engine than this one, and I'm so sick of that rehashed engine in every game over the passed 10 years, but hey... Sometimes it's better to stick with what works over something that you know nothing about.

 

Just gotta' face it. We're playing Star Trek Online 2.0 with inferior graphics, more bugs, and lightsabers.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Vinushka

[iiXarvik]

Worse. Analogy. Ever.

 

Why? It's clear as day. He buys something and expects it to be what he wants, and not what it was made to be. Therefore he bought an ice cream, when he wanted a cheeseburger.

[knatx]

Just gotta' face it. We're playing Star Trek Online 2.0 with inferior graphics, more bugs, and lightsabers.

Worse. Analogy. Ever.

 

You clearly never played STO with such a statement.

[Netsu]

People waited patiently for years for the game. Bioware/EA were impatient, and decided they needed to start making money now, rather than when the game was ready on its own merits. Or, maybe this is exactly the game they intended to make and release. Either way, they released it, charged money for it (quite a bit of money for the collector's edition, in fact). As soon as they decided the game was good enough to cash in on, it was good enough for critique.

 

Strange that this some how gets turned around to mean that customers are impatient.

 

It's true that making MMOs is hard, and pleasing every one is impossible, but that doesn't mean that paying customers are wrong to expect excellence or to complain about mediocrity. "Patience" does not mean "be a doormat so that some one else can make an easy buck."

 

 

+5. The self entitlement issue has been blown out of the water.

[Vinushka]

Worse. Analogy. Ever.

 

You clearly never played STO with such a statement.

 

Really? I can't recall bugs. Just OP skills and PVP imbalance. No content for Klingons. But the City of Heroes Engine does infact look better than this at max settings, and does run much better, and that's exactly what it used. I also remembering doing the BGs in that game and not having any of the problems I had in this one. Ever get locked out of queueing in Star Trek Online in the last Beta or the first month of live, and get sent back to your character select? I sure as hell didn't. Try again.

[Scar]

Why shouldn't we get what we want, once we pay for it? It doesn't make sense to buy something, then wait for it

 

Caveat emptor?

 

Why not do some research on what you are actually buying first rather than buying something that you know you aren't going to happy with if you actually educated yourself?

 

What is it with society that it's everyone else's fault rather than the individual's these days?

[Umbral]

Provide one example of Blizzard doing focus groups to determine the direction of the game? It was not at release because we were all UO, EQ, or DAOC fanboys. The giant exclamation points, the art direction, and other things annoyed us. Maybe it is the Mists of Pandoria where they are caving to the pressure? Nope, Blizzard says you will like it. Blizzard is implementing the vision of Blizzard, not of the fans.

 

You know how many focus groups Steve Jobs and Apple did with the iPod, iPhone, and iPad? Zero, zip, zilch, none. You know who used to listen to everyone? Microsoft. You think your opinion matters, that you know better, but you just want what you already did. But you already did it, so why repeat it? I can give you a game that has the features you want, they already exist. Why are you not playing it?

 

The best creations come from something you are passionate about and you would use or play. So if you are implementing something that you don't believe in, you think it is going to work out well?

Yes, that was why at release all the servers were crashing because of the load on them. No one wanted to play the game.....

 

That you were annoyed with WoW at release is obviously totally inconsequential. Focus groups weren't needed. They just had to have people working for them that, you know, actually were playing mmos to know what were popular features in all those games you mentioned. WoW was essentially a mash up of popular features from those games and their already existing Warcraft.

 

You're just like all the rest. In your mind:

 

Feature that WoW has = "OMG!1!!!1 Don't make it a WoW clone!!!!111!!!

 

SWTOR can be it's own game and have many features that WoW has. Just like EQ became it's own game despite having many features UO had. Just like DAoC became it's own game despite having many features EQ had. Just like WoW ended up being it's own game despite having many features the games that came before had. See how that works?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Umbral

[coldcite]

sorry, we live in the "I must have it now" generation. People dont have patience anymore, everythings got to be their way and right now!

 

I've come to terms with the fact that gaming communities are nothing more than a cespool for people with please me complex's and look how big my epeen is complex.

 

Sorry, we live in the "let's settle for mediocrity" generation. People don't have standards anymore, everything has to be a way that it's just good enough.

 

Seriously though, I can see your point and I somewhat agree, but I think we are living in a time where game developers will release unpolished and even unfinished products, guess what? we have been tolerating them doing that for a long time.

 

Also IMO, it doesn't happen only with games, I can see this attitude all over the place with almost every kind of product released. The attention to detail is gone, and money is just poured on to projects in a vain hope it will attract just a "good enough" audience as to recoup the investment.

 

Or maybe I'm just becoming old and bitter.

[Vinushka]

Why? It's clear as day. He buys something and expects it to be what he wants, and not what it was made to be. Therefore he bought an ice cream, when he wanted a cheeseburger.

 

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You basically just stated I bought something expecting something else, when I gave no such evidence pointing to such a fact. I was on topic with the OP and stating a valid counter to his comparison between games, and raised it a step further comparing it to a second game that actually looks very similar to this one (which is not a good thing.) Nowhere in my post did I state I was looking for something else when I came into this game. I'll state it for the record though, because I understand there's sub-human lifeforms in the world that somehow learned to post on the internet, but somehow never learned how to decipher basic English. I came into this game hoping for an awesome Star Wars game. What I got, left way too much to be desired.

[Twaggy]

There are many valid points in this thread, but let me just make my case.

 

1: I hate the fanboys

2: I hate the trolls

3: I hate the haters (funny eh? lol)

4: I hate the fact that people want to try and make this game work better by reporting things are drowned out by the above mentioned three. This is the point the OP was trying to make, sure go ahead and report the bugs, say what is wrong. But don't do it in an unhelpful and useless way like many do on this forum.

 

This is how I see most threads and posts on this forum.

 

"<insert bug here> is making it impossible for me to play! WHY IS THIS NOT FIXED WHY WAS IT NOT SORTED IN BETA I WANT SOME COMPENSATION AND IF I DONT IM LEAVING!"

 

This is not the correct way of "getting yourself heard", these people get ignored or flamed.

 

This is the correct way (in my opinion) to report something and get heard.

 

"Hello there, perhaps you could help? When I first logged on I played with my settings and accidently turned off General Chat in the preferences. After I realised what I did i then quickly rechecked the box to activate it again and pressed "apply". However my chat still does not work.

 

I have checked to see if a restart would fix this problem, however the problem persists. and I have checked to see if its only localised to <planet name> but it also doesnt work on any other planet Ive gone to.

 

The character I am having trouble with is called Lawnton, lvl 24 on Mask of Nihilus server. I hope this can be resolved soon as I would like to see other people talking too!"

 

That in my opinion is a perfectly good post, it's written well and is very informative of what exactly happened and shows your own steps on trying to resolve it.

 

If more people did this instead of that "IM GUNNA LEAVE IF YOU DONT FIX <bug> RIGHT NOW!" Im sure the community wouldnt be as aggresive towards one another.

[Vinushka]

Sorry, we live in the "let's settle for mediocrity" generation. People don't have standards anymore, everything has to be a way that it's just good enough.

 

Seriously though, I can see your point and I somewhat agree, but I think we are living in a time where game developers will release unpolished and even unfinished products, guess what? we have been tolerating them doing that for a long time.

 

Also IMO, it doesn't happen only with games, I can see this attitude all over the place with almost every kind of product released. The attention to detail is gone, and money is just poured on to projects in a vain hope it will attract just a "good enough" audience as to recoup the investment.

 

Or maybe I'm just becoming old and bitter.

 

 

No, you're just part of a dying breed of intelligent human beings. Sad to say you're part of a minority, and unless you possess a ridiculous sum of money, you can't herd the countless sheep to follow. Such is life.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[Blurble]

Here is some better advice.

 

Make a WoW clone and improve a few aspects of the game that will really stand out and attract disenfranchised WoW players. Make the game good enough that people will stay beyond the free month, but not long enough to fully invest yourself in the game. After the game community dies make it F2P and leave it alone.

 

Profit.

[Umbral]

Here is some better advice.

 

Make a WoW clone and improve a few aspects of the game that will really stand out and attract disenfranchised WoW players. Make the game good enough that people will stay beyond the free month, but not long enough to fully invest yourself in the game. After the game community dies make it F2P and leave it alone.

 

Profit.

Or different advice?

 

Spend tens of millions of dollars and make a game that a comparative handful of wannabe mmo theorists will think of as "so innovative and new!", have no one come to play it, but when you're flipping burgers you can always look back and say "Ya, that one pretentious guy on that one forum really liked my game".

 

Think maybe there's some middle ground out there?

[Vinushka]

Yes, that was why at release all the servers were crashing because of the load on them. No one wanted to play the game.....

 

That you were annoyed with WoW at release is obviously totally inconsequential. Focus groups weren't needed. They just had to have people working for them that, you know, actually were playing mmos to know what were popular features in all those games you mentioned. WoW was essentially a mash up of popular features from those games and their already existing Warcraft.

 

You're just like all the rest. In your mind:

 

Feature that WoW has = "OMG!1!!!1 Don't make it a WoW clone!!!!111!!!

 

SWTOR can be it's own game and have many features that WoW has. Just like EQ became it's own game despite having many features UO had. Just like DAoC became it's own game despite having many features EQ had. Just like WoW ended up being it's own game despite having many features the games that came before had. See how that works?

 

 

Every good game of the past raises the bar for the ones to come. It's not just MMOs, it's every game, it's the gaming industry. It's what gaming is all about. The closer a game gets to a true immersive experience without flaws, the better it is. UO was PVP. EQ was raiding and community. Lineage 2 kind of brought back hardcore PVP for awhile. The grind was too great. SWG was bringing groundbreaking graphics that were supposed to extend 5-10 years beyond its time and was the first real Star Wars MMO. It was cool for awhile, but overall failed.

 

PS1 comes out, blows minds of everyone who had a SNES, Genesis, Sega CD, 32X etc. PS2 comes out and blows the minds of people who had PS1s. PS3 comes out, and no one gives a ****, because Sony took too long, charged too much and everyone's already on Xbox 360. Improvement, improvement, improvement.

 

People don't want to see half-assed jobs anymore. We don't care if it just came out. How long was the project in development? How long was it beta testing for? And this is what we get? That's what goes through the minds of logical people. We don't want excuses, we want results. You can't blame us for that. It only makes sense. Gamers as a whole are becoming more and more unforgiving because we've dealt with the let-downs way too many times. Yeah people ***** in every game, but it's not always called for. People *****ed like crazy in WoW when it first came out. You know how many people quit the game due to getting spawn camped in PVP despite ROLLING on a PVP server? It was hilarious.

 

This, however was supposed to be an enormous release that people waited years for. A Star Wars MMO is not just any game. It's one of the most renowned intellectual properties in the world. You expect more. Especially when THIS game is the largest funded video game to ever be made in our lifetimes. One can't help but ask...Where did all the money go?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Vinushka

[aka_matrix_pwner]

I am most definitely not a hater. I have waited so long for this game, and it broke all of my expectations, by being much better than i counted on. Now, before you start calling me a fanboy however, you should perhaps just hear me out.

 

As stated in the first post of this thread, this game has some huge errors. Errors that tend to make me slam my fist into the table in pure nerdrage. Last night, i was helping a guy garther a random group for The Eternity Vault, due to us being unable to take on a HM FP. 20 minutes, and we had our group, and we set off.

 

The first thing that happens when i land, is that i die. No explanation, no mob, no granades or shots, no nothing. i just die. The second thing that happens is we all wipe, because the first time i leap an enemy, my game crashes. and this happens two times. so 1:30 AM i log off to play some PS2. apparently the eternity vault isn't as easy as people say... but perhaps we just needed a more skilled group, no matter.

 

I have encountered a lot of flaws like these (no, im not referring to getting wiped as a flaw, but rather game crashes, and sudden deaths), to me, however, that doesnt break the game. It's annoying, but thats about how bad it is. I've seen a lot of whiners on this forum, few people with genuine criticism of the game, who doesn't hate it, but just recognizes the flaws for what they are. It's amazing how annoying it can be to listen to some of these people acting like spoiled kids. BioWare is doing what they can to fix bugs, and in general give you a smooth experience. But a game like this takes time to fix, this many GB's of data aren't easy to change something in, i would know, im currently on a education for learning how to make video games and the likes.

 

I see people stating that BioWare just wants to take your money without giving you what you're paying for, if you really believe thats the case, what then, is stopping you from just waling away? nobody is forcing you to play this game.

 

Others keep whining about different parts of the game being broken, and i just wanna tell you: theres a difference to asking on the forums whether other people have noticed a specific flaw, or just flaming one of the crafting professions. If you really are that unsatisfied with this game, then stop playing for now and come back in a year or two when its been updated a lot.

 

BioWare doesn't have any reason for not doing their best. This game has been a huge project, do you really think this is all only about money to them? This is also about reputation, and most likely even personal pride. I would be damn proud if i was a part of the team that made this game, and i would do everything i could to adress possible flaws.

 

No, im not a fanboy because im defending BioWare, what i just want to tell you, is that there is no good reason for BioWare to not care about this game. And to do a lousy job. That would be shortsighted.

I dont wanna be part of any of the flamewars on this forum. I want to have fun playing the game, and talking to nice people that has a brain between their ears instead of empty void.

 

May the force be with you!

Edited January 6, 2012 by aka_matrix_pwner