No Nerfs needed - buffs are urgent!

[Medianoche]

From a PvPer point of view, the top level quality ranking should be like:

 

PVP Gear (Best)

Raid Gear

Random drops

Craft Gear (Special Recipes from Raids)

Craft Gear

Vendor Gear (Worst)

 

 

From a PvEer point of view:

 

Raid Gear ( Best )

Craft Gear ( Special Recipes from Raids )

PvP Gear

Craft Gear

Random drops

Vendor Gear ( Worst ).

 

 

 

 

In my opinion the top-noch equipment MUST be Raid Gear. Raids/Ops require preparation and effort. They must be the best, for the BEST.

Followed closely by Crafted Gear with high-end recipes. To complete your sets while rideing.

PvP Gear comes in third place, because it can be FARMED and doesn't really require HABILITY. Just Farming.

Rest is ****.

[_Flin_]

In my opinion the top-noch equipment MUST be Raid Gear. Raids/Ops require preparation and effort. They must be the best, for the BEST.

Followed closely by Crafted Gear with high-end recipes. To complete your sets while rideing.

PvP Gear comes in third place, because it can be FARMED and doesn't really require HABILITY. Just Farming.

Rest is ****.

 

Sorry, this is utter bull.

Top notch PVE gear should come from raids/hardmodes/whatever.

Top notch PvP gear should come from PvP.

There is no reason at all that there can't be top notch other gear coming from crafting. Be it social, be it companions, be it soloing, be it crafting equipment.

 

Which decent Raider or PvPer would ever wear items that have +presence? Noone.

 

So there is no reason not to have some gear that isn't very good neither for raiding nor for PvP, but still is on par with it item level wise.

[_Flin_]

So again lets reward crafters and everyone in their guild correct?

 

You are actually the only person talking about guilds. How could BoP items possibly benefit anyone except the crafter himself?

 

And, Following your logic, why not turn off crafting at all? Instead of having it and being useless? If it is something for loser MMOs that noone plays anyway, why bother?

[Pandabutt]

So again lets reward crafters and everyone in their guild correct? I don't know maybe it's because I come from a large well organized guild. If it can be crafted we will craft it and then everyone in our guild will have one once they hit the requisite level. this destroys the incentive to actually do anything as what it there to gain if some one can make it for you. I hate to break it to some of you people but even if you can craft good stuff , most of us in quality guilds will never need to buy it from you.

But seriously this isn't SWG, if you miss that type of crafting that destroyed any reason to loot anything go back and play it. From the "huge" numbers of people touting that system it must be an overwhelming success. I mean it's got an unbeatable license and awesome crafting and social play in a huge sand box world. They must be opening new servers all the time. Wait... what is that you're telling me, it was a bomb from the start and bled money for years until they they mercifully pulled the plug... (btw I played it from launch to NGE) well then move on to the other AAA MMOs with sandbox play and deep crafting... there must be a huge number based on these forums telling me how we need all those functions. Good luck finding one.

 

Will you stop and listen for once?

 

The MAIN ISSUE HERE is that the best crafted gear is worse than the vendor gear. If we can at least get that fixed, then we won't be so pissed about the way things are.

 

However, that doesn't excuse the fact that you are trying to say raiders put more work into getting their gear than crafters ever will when the fact is crafters do indeed put more work into it. They have to grind the skill up to 400, spend countless hours trying to obtain that one schematic for each piece, sink millions upon millions of credits into the skill, then once that's all said and done they have to run those very same raids your so proud of countless times to get all the BoP mats they need.

 

You say there would be no need to do the other content? BULL! Your crafters in your guild would still need to run the raids to get the materials to make gear for your other members. As a result, you'll still be running those raids with your guild a ton, and every time you have another member needing top of the line gear you're running it again so your crafter can get the materials.

 

And if the stats are identical, then it comes down to asthetics. Maybe you want the raid gear for it's looks, maybe you want some crafted gear for it's looks, or maybe you want some incredibly rare world boss drop item for it's looks.

 

You can't tell me that putting crafted gear on par with raid and pvp gear will kill the game. It won't, we arn't asking for it to be better than pvp and raid, we are asking for it to be on par with them.

 

Seriously, listen to what is actually being said.

[Dorlomin]

The problem to me isn't so much that what you craft at 400/50 is largely useless (most games that's the case honestly), it's more the lack of a "bonus" of some sort for it being at that level. Biochem has it's obvious bonuses, Cybertech has a mount you can make and some bombs, but that's really about it.

 

The bonuses for all the crafting professions need to be worth the hassle of leveling them, or nobody will. And currently for really all of the crafting professions, there is no real incentive to level any of them. It can really even be argued that skipping Biochem is viable if you have slicing maxed as it still makes money like crazy. Without the crafting professions being utilized by a majority of the playerbase, the economy will utterly tank because everyone will just gather and not be able to give what they gathered away, much less sell any of it.

 

Personally I'd like to see them do to crafting what Blizzard did to the crafting in WoW as far as bonuses go, as that creates incentive for the min/max'ers to level it as well as everyone else just for a bonus. I've never been a big fan of the "having to raid to get the patterns/mats" (and I've been a longtime raider). Raid/PVP gear should be better than whats crafted, but you should get a bonus of some sort for knowing how to improve it (or something along those lines).

 

The game is only officially a couple weeks old, and things are going to get adjusted in the coming weeks I'm sure. I would assume they have a running list of "game balance" issues to be looked at/resolved, I'm just hoping this at the top of that list.

 

Edit: I'm not 50 yet and haven't touched a crafting profession because of the current implementation, but if it's really true that simple to obtain vendor gear is better than anything crafted, then yes that needs to be fixed as well.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Dorlomin

[DevorRentreen]

I'll get PvP gear, so I do not really care ..but why should crafted gear not be on par with PvP gear (minus the pvp specific mods) or raid gear? All of these require some effort to get and it comes down to personal tast what you like/not like. Some people should get off their high horse, thinking their playstyle is better or more demanding

 

Just put in different styles/looks so top raid gear looks different from top craft gear.

[Dorlomin]

I'll get PvP gear, so I do not really care ..but why should crafted gear not be on par with PvP gear (minus the pvp specific mods) or raid gear? All of these require some effort to get and it comes down to personal tast what you like/not like. Some people should get off their high horse, thinking their playstyle is better or more demanding

 

Just put in different styles/looks so top raid gear looks different from top craft gear.

 

As has been stated too many times already, because then what is the incentive to raid/pvp? None. You have to have something to do at end game or you'll just stand around and dwell on how tough it was sewing all those clothes your wearing ;-)

[Pandabutt]

As has been stated too many times already, because then what is the incentive to raid/pvp? None. You have to have something to do at end game or you'll just stand around and dwell on how tough it was sewing all those clothes your wearing ;-)

 

I am tired of seeing this reason.

 

You want to know why? It's not a real reason.

 

Let's say raiding for raid gear was the only incentive to do anything at the end game. What happens when you get your full raid gear set? Oh that's right "you'll just stand around and dwell on how tough it was".

 

See the failure in your logic there?

 

You say giving Crafters gear that is on par with Raid gear will cause there to be nothing to do in the end game... that's just entirely not true. The end result is the same once you have your full top end gear. And believe it or not, most MMOers won't stand around and do nothing all day just because they have their top of the line gear. We will go out and play the game, the end game isn't affected by how you got your gear, it's affected by what YOU CHOOSE TO DO. It doesn't matter if your end game gear is crafted or from raids or PvP.

[_Flin_]

The problem to me isn't so much that what you craft at 400/50 is largely useless (most games that's the case honestly), it's more the lack of a "bonus" of some sort for it being at that level. Biochem has it's obvious bonuses, Cybertech has a mount you can make and some bombs, but that's really about it.

 

Cybertech's bonus is actually the creation of shipparts, the speeders are nothing "useful". They just look different. So more "fancy" than "useful". But that's not the point. The point is that all you said is correct.

 

The crafting professions do not give any bonuses, the exception being Biochem. Cybertech might be better than the abysmal rest, but still is really bad.

 

WoW had figured out to add these gimmicks to every craft with Burning Crusade, like the spellthreads for tailoring. Nothing comparable in SWTOR, except in Biochem.

 

To me it seems as if the concept was:

Orange armor and weapons can be used on any level. You can mod your weapons and armor, so that you can actually use any weapon you want.

Therefore the interdependent Mod-System was created. Noone can make them all.

Then the system was thrown into the garbage.

 

And therefore the balanced crafting system, where everyone build certain mods... has tanked.

No great barrels from the Armstechs.

No great hilts from the Artificers.

No mods and armors from the cybertechs.

[Racheakt]

This was a topic of great debate before the forum wipes.

 

Raiders Raid

PvPers PvP

Crafters do it largely solo.

 

There is a PvP stat that improves PvP

There is a companion stat that improves companions.

There is no PvE stat for raid gear but there are set bonuses.

 

Now this has been proposed before, have all 50 gear have the same ilevel, but different stat distribution:

 

PvP gear has 10% of it's item budget dedicated to PvP stat

Crafted gear has 10% of it's item budget dedicated to companion stat

Raid gear has the whole 100% of it's budget dedicated to stats + set bonus.

 

 

Crafted gear now is less than vendor gear. This is bad.

[Kaonis]

Throw high level mats as drops in raids/world bosses/all the end game stuff. Then let crafters use those mats for gear that's comparable to raid gear. It gives crafters good gear only they can make, but still requires endgame to perform it. So crafters who want to craft can buy the mats from raiders, and raiders can buy the gear from crafters. That'll help things.

 

Although my big problem with crafting at the moment is just how easy it is to get to 400. Most games I played being the top tier of crafting took work and was something only the dedicated achieved. But 400 is a joke in this game, I'm either 400 or about 30 away from it on all my crafts and was excitedly telling me guild I was close to the end. The response? So was the entire guild, even the people who played less in the week than me were only about 20-30 skill lower than myself. It just seems like less of an achievement and really waters down crafting if even the super casual player can be a master crafter at the same level as someone who spends even more time at it.

[Qilz]

Also the reusables for Bio/Cyber require you have to those skills to use them so that idea is out.

 

Wrong. Get your facts straight before you post nonsense.

[_Flin_]

As has been stated too many times already, because then what is the incentive to raid/pvp? None.

 

The argument is only valid backwards.

 

If you can only craft rubbish, what is your incentive to craft?

Right, nothing at all.

 

If you have the option to farm money for 2 days and buy an item or to go raiding for two days or to PvP for 2 days to get the same item (which of course you don't, because PvE and PvP need different things), what do you do?

Well, the things you enjoy most, don't you?

 

Furthermore nothing wrong with bound artifact highlevel items. But not even they exist.

[_Flin_]

It just seems like less of an achievement and really waters down crafting if even the super casual player can be a master crafter at the same level as someone who spends even more time at it.

 

That's why I'd prefer the achievement to be getting the schematics and getting the materials.

 

400 is easy, but how many blue and purple items can you craft?

[Sardia-Jax]

+10 to this post, but for the exceptions...

you say why raid to craft (which i totally agree with, i HATE that crap)..but then you add in..

 

- schematics with BoP Items

- schematics that need BoP materials from dangerous opponents like bosses

 

ummmmm...contradiction?

i personally was looking forward to even the cheesy grenades i could make with cybertech on my bh...til i found out each needs a F**KING bop item form a op or hm flashpoint...ya, great...a bop anyone can roll on aparently, regardless if they can use it or not...sigh

 

i will say the last option (- schematics that need loads of BoP materials from daily crafting quests.) i wouldnt mind included....crafting dailies, for the sake of sanity and pure options, are a plus in my book....

 

but then again, why bother atm, if theres dailies for comendations for vendor stuff 10 times better than anything anyone can make...

 

"sad panda face"

 

i miss galaxies crafting so much

[Dorlomin]

I am tired of seeing this reason.

 

You want to know why? It's not a real reason.

 

Let's say raiding for raid gear was the only incentive to do anything at the end game. What happens when you get your full raid gear set? Oh that's right "you'll just stand around and dwell on how tough it was".

 

See the failure in your logic there?

 

You say giving Crafters gear that is on par with Raid gear will cause there to be nothing to do in the end game... that's just entirely not true. The end result is the same once you have your full top end gear. And believe it or not, most MMOers won't stand around and do nothing all day just because they have their top of the line gear. We will go out and play the game, the end game isn't affected by how you got your gear, it's affected by what YOU CHOOSE TO DO. It doesn't matter if your end game gear is crafted or from raids or PvP.

 

Actually no I don't see it. Largely because less than 50% of the population in any MMO finishes a raid tier while it's considered relevant. The same goes for PVP. Even the most hardcore raiders typically don't have every piece of gear they can get before a new tier is released. This isn't by accident the game is designed to keep the carrot right in front of you, but to never really let you catch it.

 

But going by your "logic", once you have the best of everything you can get, what are you going to go out and do? You're going to go out and "play the game"? Really what part? What's left? You're not going to go do the dailies, you don't need anything from them. Quest? The odds are you've done pretty much all of them already. Raid? Doubtful as you don't need anything from them either, not to mention the time investment for nothing along with all the wiping and repair bills will quickly deter you. (There are some folks that raid for the love of raiding, but you don't come as one of them).

[Pandabutt]

Actually no I don't see it. Largely because less than 50% of the population in any MMO finishes a raid tier while it's considered relevant. The same goes for PVP. Even the most hardcore raiders typically don't have every piece of gear they can get before a new tier is released. This isn't by accident the game is designed to keep the carrot right in front of you, but to never really let you catch it.

 

But going by your "logic", once you have the best of everything you can get, what are you going to go out and do? You're going to go out and "play the game"? Really what part? What's left? You're not going to go do the dailies, you don't need anything from them. Quest? The odds are you've done pretty much all of them already. Raid? Doubtful as you don't need anything from them either, not to mention the time investment for nothing along with all the wiping and repair bills will quickly deter you. (There are some folks that raid for the love of raiding, but you don't come as one of them).

 

We are only a few weeks into the game, and already people have full raid sets. Tell me... do they just up and stop playing now? Are they irrelevant already? What's the point in their endgame?

 

You still haven't patched the giant hole in your logic.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pandabutt

[_Flin_]

ummmmm...contradiction?

i personally was looking forward to even the cheesy grenades i could make with cybertech on my bh...til i found out each needs a F**KING bop item form a op or hm flashpoint...ya, great...a bop anyone can roll on aparently, regardless if they can use it or not...sigh

 

A bit. I was thinking more along the lines of world bosses or bosses in single player instances, though. Not raid bosses, but "boss" monsters, the ones with the yellow silver star symbols.

[Dorlomin]

We are only a few weeks into the game, and already people have full raid sets. Tell me... do they just up and stop playing now? Are they irrelevant already? What's the point in their endgame?

 

You still haven't patched the giant hole in your logic.

 

LOL go back to Page 3 and read what I posted, I already stated the obvious. What does the game being 3 weeks old have to do with what you're trying to argue?

 

The only "giant hole" here seems to be between your ears ;-)

[Pandabutt]

LOL go back to Page 3 and read what I posted, I already stated the obvious. What does the game being 3 weeks old have to do with what you're trying to argue?

 

Your arguing that crafting can't create gear on par with raid or PvP because once people get the top gear they have nothing to do in the endgame. And that raiding for the best gear is the only thing there is in the endgame.

 

The fact that people already have raid sets this early on and still find things to do pokes a huge hole in your logic.

 

Early on when raids were a new concept to MMOs, yes, they took forever for people to get the gear from them because people spent so long trying to figure them out. As the years have dragged on, raiding, even in new games, has become second nature to the average MMOer. It only takes a run or two to get all the tricks down, then the rest is downhill and before long your decked out in your full raid set.

 

The game being only 3 weeks old has nothing to do with anything, what i said was people have full sets this early on already. If we have full raid sets on people at this early on in the game, then if your endgame is all about raiding for gear, things don't look to good.

 

The facts are there. Raiding isn't all there is to the endgame, let alone grinding raids for gear.

 

Additionally, even if crafted gear is on par with Raid gear, it won't ever stop people from grinding for the raid gear. there are going to be perks to the raid gear over crafted still, and they have completely different looks to them. Not everyone likes the styles you can get from crafted armors, there are people who prefer the appearance of Raid and PvP gear over crafted and looted gear.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pandabutt

[ninoss]

HANDS OFF MY BELOVED BIOCHEM!!!!

 

Srsly, just buff other crafts. And do it fast, before everybody rolls biochem :/

[Vaestmannaeyjar]

Crafting requires some kind of skill? Are you serious?

 

In a game where craftign has meaning and sens, yes it does. It's called knowing the market.

Becoming rich as a trader in SWG wasn't just a matter of churning out items.

Remember, although most gamers forget this, using your brain is a skill not everyone has.

[Partizan_Cholek]

I'm just going to throw this out there:

 

Blacksmithing - grants the ability for gem-socketable gloves (beyond existing stats)

Alchemy - increased effect from pots/flasks

Jewelcrafting - Profession-only gems with increased stats

Enchanting - Profession-only enchants with increased stats

Tailoring - Profession-only enchants for legs

Leatherworking - Profession-only bracer enchant

 

Bioware, surely you can see the trend here. I'm not saying copy one-for-one, but what about something like:

 

Artifice - profession-only hilts with increased stats

Armormech - grants ability to install augment (primary or secondary) slots into heavy chest pieces

Synthweaving - grants the ability to install augments (primary or secondary) into light/medium legs

Biochem - leave as is, or give the corresponding stat buff to stim-use at max-level Rakata stims that give a secondary stat buff

Armstech - profession-only BOP barrels with increased stats

Cybertech - profession-only BOP mods (a max of 1-2 installed or something)

 

It doesn't have to be exactly like that, but you get the idea. There needs to be some endgame benefit to taking a crew skill.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Partizan_Cholek

[Dorlomin]

Your arguing that crafting can't create gear on par with raid or PvP because once people get the top gear they have nothing to do in the endgame. And that raiding for the best gear is the only thing there is in the endgame.

 

The fact that people already have raid sets this early on and still find things to do pokes a huge hole in your logic.

 

Raid sets != BiS everything you can get. And as far as I've heard nobody is fully decked out from 16 man Nightmare modes, and won't be for quite awhile I hope. (If they are this game will die a pretty quick death regardless of crafting suckage)

 

Early on when raids were a new concept to MMOs, yes, they took forever for people to get the gear from them because people spent so long trying to figure them out. As the years have dragged on, raiding, even in new games, has become second nature to the average MMOer. It only takes a run or two to get all the tricks down, then the rest is downhill and before long your decked out in your full raid set.

 

Thanks for the history lesson.

 

 

The game being only 3 weeks old has nothing to do with anything, what i said was people have full sets this early on already. If we have full raid sets on people at this early on in the game, then if your endgame is all about raiding for gear, things don't look to good.

 

LOL then why bring it up at all? And show me someone who's fully Nightmare mode geared already. If they exist already (and it may be possible), I would bet there isn't more than a handful at the very most. And for them you're right they've got not much left to do.

 

The facts are there. Raiding isn't all there is to the endgame, let alone grinding raids for gear.

 

Additionally, even if crafted gear is on par with Raid gear, it won't ever stop people from grinding for the raid gear. there are going to be perks to the raid gear over crafted still, and they have completely different looks to them. Not everyone likes the styles you can get from crafted armors, there are people who prefer the appearance of Raid and PvP gear over crafted and looted gear.

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer what else there was to do, and you haven't.

 

The cosmetics of gear has been an issue in every game. But once again that has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. The whole basis of your complaint was crafting sucks because it's not the best gear you can get. Then right above this in your quote you even admit that raid gear should still have perks over crafted gear.

 

At this point I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[Dorlomin]

I'm just going to throw this out there:

 

Blacksmithing - grants the ability for gem-socketable gloves (beyond existing stats)

Alchemy - increased effect from pots/flasks

Jewelcrafting - Profession-only gems with increased stats

Enchanting - Profession-only enchants with increased stats

Tailoring - Profession-only enchants for legs

Leatherworking - Profession-only bracer enchant

 

Bioware, surely you can see the trend here. I'm not saying copy one-for-one, but what about something like:

 

Artifice - profession-only hilts with increased stats

Armormech - grants ability to install augment (primary or secondary) slots into heavy chest pieces

Synthweaving - grants the ability to install augments (primary or secondary) into light/medium legs

Biochem - leave as is, or give the corresponding stat buff to stim-use at max-level Rakata stims that give a secondary stat buff

Armstech - profession-only BOP barrels with increased stats

Cybertech - profession-only BOP mods (a max of 1-2 installed or something)

 

It doesn't have to be exactly like that, but you get the idea. There needs to be some endgame benefit to taking a crew skill.

 

This is exactly where I was trying to go with this thread till PB derailed it.