anstalt Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because we have to work to be on that same level ground? Why do you expect a person who does 5 WZ per week to be on the same level as the person who does 5 WZ per day doesn't make any sense to me. I don't even... WTS> Logic Expertise amplifies differences in gear, its not just a simple reward for pvping. It amplifies the gear gap. Having gear gaps is counter-productive to the longevity of a modern mmo. In PVE, gear gaps segregate the community. Those with no gear need to run low level instances to get gear to progress to the next set to instances to get gear to progress.....at each section, the amount of available players to group with is artifically small as those further in the progression dont need those instances. In PvP, having gear gaps removes the importance of player skill and replaces it with importance of gear whilst at the same time actively discourages new players from participating in pvp. No body likes to lose but in pvp, someone has to. If you consistantly lose because of your gear, then most players will just give up rather than grind the gear themselves. This reduces the size of the pvp community, making pvp less common and less active. Long term, this results in less investment from BW which results in more veterans leaving due to boredom. Its a downwards spiral. With expertise, bioware has gone doubly wrong. With the pvp gear there is already a natural progression from centurion - champion - battlemaster. Each new tier has better stats than the previous one, so someone in battlemaster gear would already have an advantage over someone in centurion gear due to more DPS, more armour, more health etc. This is amplified by expertise as battlemaster has more expertise than lower tier gear. This is seriously bad for the long term health of pvp in TOR. The solution is to make expertise a flat stat across all pvp sets. So, if you buy the level 20 pvp set (all pieces), you will have 1000 expertise. If you buy the battlemaster set, you will also have 1000 expertise. The battlemaster set will still be better as it will have much better stats, but expertise no longer acts as an amplifier to the gear gap, it merely serves its original intention of separating pvp and pve gear. Simples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djvapid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The reason for it isn't to help or hinder pvp'ers, it's to prevent raiders from being forced to pvp to remain competitive I keep seeing this as the main argument supporting the existance of expertise. My question is...why does anyone need to feel competitive about PvP vs Raiding? I think crafting should put out the best gear out there anyway. But that's just me. Some people like to PvP. Some like to Raid. Who cares about having a piece of gear with -1- more point of AIM or CUNNING on it than another piece of gear? Christ, people need to stop taking this game too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djvapid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 In the 50 bracket, everyone is going to have expertise. Subsequently canceling the stat out completely. Ipso facto, why does it even exist? And what about the longevity of the game? Next year, is there going to be a "new pwn tier" of gear with even /more/ Expertise? (Even though it caps out at a 20% damage buff and 20% damage debuff.) I mean...really, that's /all/ you people who support this stat have to look forward to. Years of grinding for an extra 10 points of expertise because gear is more important than skill. With this current system, you don't have to be good, you just have to be geared. It's pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I think what they must do is to leave PVP gears ONLY on the PVP servers because we are here to PVP and we are here to reap the rewards by PVPing which is the extra expertise. We PVP, we get itamz, we get expertise.. result! Next months or years with the new tier, PVPers WILL still PVP to get those next tiers. What's wrong with effort = reward? Common sense here. PVErs who chose a PVE and RP server can stay on their 'level ground' with the PVE gears farmed from hella fun mindless killing AI and NPCs hooray. Problem solved. Edited January 10, 2012 by aishiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avean Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is the weaknesses of MMO's, all this stat discussion. There really shouldnt be any levelling or stat that increases your strength somehow. Focus on abilities and only that instead. Its so ridiculous to loose a fight cause you havent grinded 8 hours a day. MMO's are geared towards grinding and i really dont know why. If you would put Jedi Academy gameplay into the world of SWTOR you would basicly have an incredibly fun and engaging game without the need to power grind and talk about imbalance. People who were good playing Jedi Academy were good cause they practiced with theyre abilities, not cause they have grinded gear with expertise bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Didn't Blizzard remove resilience stats from WoW? If so, I wonder why. Edited January 11, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danieros Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) For balanced PvP you should go play GW/GW2 because it really is the only game that does not feature any kind of level/gear progression for its PvP part. Those who played WoW on the old days know why a PvP stat was needed. There is no PvE stat like Expertise probably because you would be dumbing down the PvE game to use one stat only. This happens in PvP because it doesn't really need stats to be fun, it's players who make it fun. Edited January 10, 2012 by Danieros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskur Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 For balanced PvP you should go play GW/GW2 because it really is the only game that does not feature any kind of level/gear progression for its PvP part. Those who played WoW on the old days know why a PvP stat was needed. Actually no I don't all I saw in WoW was a PVP system that everyone enjoyed turning into a niche system with a lot of pole humping. Resilience was the first step into turning PVP from something that was enjoyed by all players into an e-sport for a few elitists *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskur Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) The solution is to make expertise a flat stat across all pvp sets. So, if you buy the level 20 pvp set (all pieces), you will have 1000 expertise. If you buy the battlemaster set, you will also have 1000 expertise. The battlemaster set will still be better as it will have much better stats, but expertise no longer acts as an amplifier to the gear gap, it merely serves its original intention of separating pvp and pve gear. Simples That is actually the best idea I have ever heard on this issue. Where the hell is bioware, listen to this man before the gear gap kills your game. Edited January 10, 2012 by Iskur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anstalt Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) that is actually the best idea i have ever heard on this issue. Where the hell is bioware, listen to this man before the gear gap kills your game. Gear gaps are definitely a major problem long term, but keeping gear progression is still important to keep players grinding. Hopefully they can implement something like I've suggested, but I doubt they will. It took Turbine 2 years to admit their mistake of implementing radience (tiered gear progression for raiding which segregated the community), big companies simply dont like admitting mistakes. Edited January 10, 2012 by anstalt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharma Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 what did you really expect from a game that is WoW in space but with less features? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahhmyface Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Most of you are too busy drooling to read this, but the expertise stat is not the right scapegoat here. TLDR: You need to play an old school fps. Progression is progression. It doesn't matter if it's expertise, or gear, or consumables, or leveling, or whatever. People who play more will always have more stuff unless you remove all progression. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TestiSteelnuts Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 And also to prevent competitive pvpers from being forced to raid. Seriously, no one seems to remember the old days when the raiders would dominate PvP based on gear advantages and everyone would whine about that. The game is built around gear progression. Having two different paths for PvE and PvP is a good thing because it allows people to focus on what they like to do without feeling like they have to do everything if they don't want to. If you want a completely level playing field from the get go, there are many other different types of PvP games out there. ++++++++++++++++++++++++1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeekDator Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you don't like the PvP mechanics, go do something else. To say that you don't want PvP stats for PvP is just crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorto Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Nothing is wrong with expertise. It prevents hardcore PvE players from dominating with there purple gear. Take out exp and these guys get a leg up. As for the whole argument of what about down the road when a fresh 50 comes to pvp and gets shreded. Just copy WoW's craftable lower level pvp gear so the gap between the fresh players and the guys decked out in the top of the line purple pvp is not that great. Res wrecked wow? Yea the the guys running around in full instance gear with the oranges smashing face that was real balance. Plus only a select few elite could get pvp gear? Give me a break I could cap out and did cap out and get enough pvp gear to hold my own in a week or 2. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gorto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaManoNera Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Nothing is wrong with expertise. It prevents hardcore PvE players from dominating with there purple gear. Take out exp and these guys get a leg up. No they don't. PvP gear doesn't need a special PvP stat to be competitive. It hasn't worked for the past 7 years, why would it work in the year 2012? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Not everyone want to farm PvE scripted fight over and over again so they can PvP OMG are you people even slightly paying attention when you read something? You must be kidding, one of the reason PvP in wow is considered *********** **** is because you have to raid in order to have access to BiS PvP trinket and weapon REEEEEEEEEEEEAD BEFORE YOU REPLY. Expertise is good for the game. It's there to prevent pvp gear being as good as or better than pve gear in raids. I do not want to pvp for my best pre-raid gear. REEEEEEEEEEEEAD BEFORE YOU REPLY. Exactly and I don't want to have to PvE raid as I don't enjoy it. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD. ^ And for you people who want to add Expertise to Raid gear, what exactly does that accomplish? Now if I want to PvP, I have to raid? What? I'm shocked that you can act so shocked when it's in plain English. NO one asked for a PVP stat on PVE gear, a PVE stat on PVE gear a was asked for. Honestly guys? SERIOUSLY? If you don't agree with the posts then fair enough BUT at least actually show HALF a brain and a ability to read. As a note, I'm not raging I'm actually laughing at you. Wow, just wow. Queue up the next person to now reply with some other point that requires the SAME damn thing repeating again because they didn't get it, but raged on the internet like they did anyway. PVP stats statement PVP, add a PVE stat to end game PVE gear meaning that if you want to end game PVE you have to have end game PVE gear (news flash, this is nothing new it works perfectly in other games), make end game PVP sets have the same stats expect the PVE stat AND BAM, PVP sets can't be used in PVE, other gear is perfectly viable in PVP but not more powerful and new players will join PVP and PVP won't die as it always does. Edited January 10, 2012 by CapuchinSeven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorto Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No they don't. PvP gear doesn't need a special PvP stat to be competitive. It hasn't worked for the past 7 years, why would it work in the year 2012? Yes because of resilience, WoW's arena's and battlegrounds are empty cause it is a total failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The solution is to make expertise a flat stat across all pvp sets. So, if you buy the level 20 pvp set (all pieces), you will have 1000 expertise. If you buy the battlemaster set, you will also have 1000 expertise. The battlemaster set will still be better as it will have much better stats, but expertise no longer acts as an amplifier to the gear gap, it merely serves its original intention of separating pvp and pve gear. Simples This is an extremely simple and elegant fix that makes expertise do what it's supposed to do instead of serving as a double-dipping barrier to entry. Hire this man, he clearly knows a lot more about PVP design than any of your laughable team of "pvp" developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes because of resilience, WoW's arena's and battlegrounds are empty cause it is a total failure. Already been commented on. Thread is dead, same old rubbish going around and around and around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTBountyHunter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Honestly, expertise should just reduce the effectiveness of CC against you. You can literally be cc'd for 8 or so seconds straight, which is more than enough time to kill someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorto Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Already been commented on. Thread is dead, same old rubbish going around and around and around. Dont have time to read thru 58 pages. Maybe if people spent less time reading all this **** and commenting and spen that time pvping they would have a full set exp gear and would not be complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskur Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 ++++++++++++++++++++++++1 Look at anstalt's solution far better than the ridiculous gear scaling we have now. One stat that is even on all PVP gear levels. It keeps PVE gear out but keeps PVP enjoyable and open to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dont have time to read thru 58 pages. Maybe if people spent less time reading all this **** and commenting and spen that time pvping they would have a full set exp gear and would not be complaining. Already have full set thanks dude *thumbs up*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorto Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Already have full set thanks dude *thumbs up*. Good then you can **** clean off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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