The Expertise stat has to go...

[Wolfeborn]

This is the age old argument between "Casual" and "Hardcore" gamers. Both sides have valid points but the only solution possible is the current one, which is why you see the same thing from game to game.

 

Key Fact

-No ones $14.99 is more important then the other. Money is Money and companies want it and the best way to get that is cater to all types the best they can.

 

 

MMOs have always proven to be PvE base, more so then PvP, but just as many people love to PvP.

 

 

"Hardcore" gamers pave the way and set the standards.

 

Most likely every "casual" gamer is using a guide and/or a build plus rotation that was created/posted by some "Hardcore" gamer who rushed his/her way to end game (PvE or PvP). They usually in counter the bulk of exploits and bugs in game after launch. They post/report on these and help make the progression for late comers/casual gamers a little easier.

 

Now hardcore gamers usually split into two groups PvE and PvP. Before "Setting specific" stats were widely used, PvPers would dominate the PvE'ers (skill or because they knew what works and what doesn't vs another player) up until those PvE'ers got BiS PvE gear. Do to the slowness of new content being added to games in general most PvE'ers would PvP to pass the time and ,more times than not, they would "LOL" their way through "Hardcore" PvPers with no issue (do to their gear).

 

So PvE players would conquer PvE then turn around and conquer PvP, of course in the eyes of non-raiding PvPers this was unacceptable and so "Setting Specific" stats started getting implemented, over time, from game to game. The idea was to have sets of gear for PvP to offset end-game PvE'ers facerolliness.

 

Now, from there, some companies got it right and others didn't. The main issue being PvP bleeding over into PvE and PvE bleeding into PvP. This was do to the fast pace nature of PvP and the long (drawn out) restriction in PvE. PvPers could progress PvP wise a lot faster then PvE'ers could in terms of getting their relative BiS and this led to top tier PvP gear being better then any non-top tier (raiding) gear.

 

Allowing PvP'ers to fill raiding spots (damage wise) before PvE'ers, who had been gearing up through PvE means only. Well, this didn't sit too well with PvE'er ( and since end-game PvE gear takes three to four times longer to get because of restriction like raid lock-outs, drop rate, etc.) PvE gear (usually weapon wise) is usually BiS, once again making PvE gear better then PvP even in PvP.

 

 

 

 

I think it all boils down to time. It takes longer to progress in PvE then it does in PvP so it just seems fair for the reward to be greater.

 

 

 

 

So back to the main point of this thread!

 

Players (Hardcore) feel gear (and the "Facerolling" power of that gear) is a fair reward/exchange for their time spent to get it.

 

Casuals, usually being so far behind, find this to be an unfair advantages when its comes to PvP when they are placed against fully geared opponents.

 

Sadly so far this is the only thing that works and companies will continue with this process until something better is implemented in a future game and is proven to work.

 

TLDR: TIME > SKILL ( When its comes to overall profit for a company)

 

 

 

 

Stat is here to stay. Learn to deal.

 

 

 

 

Happy Gaming!

Edited January 10, 2012 by Wolfeborn

[Kgorr]

If they remove the PvP gear ... many will cancel

[Mattderp]

No it stays! I didn't get my butt whipped for a week straight to have my expertise taken away from me! You become num to losing when trying to grind for your battlemaster gear. You just need to suck it up and get your PVP gear. It's the only thing that counters Raid gear which I personally HATE raiding.

 

You complaining about Expertise is like a PvPer complaing about being forced to go through Raids in order to get gear. Sorry!

 

^ this right here. Don't whine because you don't have the dedication to get your gear to compete with people who have.

[_Borg_]

^ this right here. Don't whine because you don't have the dedication to get your gear to compete with people who have.

 

lol.

 

PvP should be about skill not gear. If you're so good at this game you should be able to do just fine if all stats were balanced to one level via the warzone buff so that everyone was equal "gear" wise.

 

Nobody deserves to be able to faceroll through warzones just because they got there first and got ahead of everyone else. None of you are special.

 

It has never made sense to use the progressive PvE gearing system in PvP in any game. Someone needs to put a stop to it. PvP should always be about a competition between players based on skill and teamwork, not based on gear. It is not PvE, there does not need to be gear progression. NONE. EVER. Other than perhaps gear that's just for looks and not stats.

 

Look at the guild wars 2 PvP model. It will not be about gear. At all. That's how PvP should be.

[GenLloyd]

Why is it supposed to be ok to disadvantage pvpers in pve but not pveers in pvp? Scrap the seperate sets, have one set which can be earned doing which ever you enjoy the most and also allow pvpers to dip into pve when they like without disadvantage and vice versa. Why have different sets at all?

 

Did you look at the stats he proposed?

 

They're identical except one has expertise bonus. How is that disadvantaging pvp players in pve? If anything you still technically have better gear because it is the best of both worlds, instead of pve gear with is only the best of the pve world. (Unless having expertise makes you worse at pve?)

 

All in all though. This.

 

lol.

 

PvP should be about skill not gear.

 

PvP stat is just a crutch to the bad players and an unfair advantage to the good players. It has no business being in a legitimate PvP experience, along with different gears.

Edited January 10, 2012 by GenLloyd

[Lecutus]

It's a stupid stat, and bad for the game.

 

Your bad for the game!

[Jargonaut]

Did you look at the stats he proposed?

 

They're identical except one has expertise bonus. How is that disadvantaging pvp players in pve? If anything you still technically have better gear because it is the best of both worlds, instead of pve gear with is only the best of the pve world. (Unless having expertise makes you worse at pve?).

He wrote about giving pvE expertise.

 

"B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider."

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jargonaut

[Thiussat]

It is possible to keep the expertise stat without the massive gear gap that is occuring. The solution is really quite simple: give every piece of pvp gear the same expertise.

 

That's what Rift ended up doing. They have 8 pvp gear ranks, so R1's were getting 2 shot by R8's. Trion finally listened to all the whiners on the forums and went ahead and made "valor" the same on R1 gear as on R8 gear. The R8 gear still has better offensive stats and armor, etc., but at least the PvP stat was normalized. (Valor in Rift is only a defensive stat, it does nothing for offense).

 

But in Rift, valor gives you a HUGE amount of damage reduction (up to about 50% at max gear), so normalizing it across gear sets made sense overall. It is my understanding that Expertise in this game goes nowhere near that sort of level. Doesn't it cap at something like 20%?

 

A good number of PvP'ers left Rift after Trion made valor normalized. They said why should they have to grind to R8 and get destroyed at lower ranks while newbs have much better gear. They have a point, but I think Trion made the right decision. The difference in R8 and R1 is like a lvl 50 vs. a level 10 in this game. It had to be done to keep the game even remotely sane.

 

That said, this game has nowhere NEAR the gear grind Rift does. It takes even hardcore players weeks and months to hit R8. I have been PvP'ing in this game for a week and already have (some) champion gear, which is the 2nd best rank. In Rift, I'd be sitting at R3 right now.

 

So, really, I laugh when people complain about the "grind" in this game. It is not a grind compared to some other games out there.

[BDutch]

A good number of PvP'ers left Rift after Trion made valor normalized.

I am skeptical that there were a good number of PvP'ers to leave by that point.

[Thiussat]

I am skeptical that there were a good number of PvP'ers to leave by that point.

 

That's true. And there's even fewer now that SWTOR is out and will be next to zero when GW2 comes out.

 

BTW, I know some came here and went back to Rift due to ability delay and fps stuff. In a way I can't blame them, but this game is so much better OVERALL than Rift. Rift has a much better UI and smoother play, but that's it. I am hoping BW gets it together in the ability delay and FPS department. I know UI improvements are already incoming.

[Vindexus]

I'm confused. The only people who could be offended by the removal of Expertise on gear would be people who are using PvP gear to PvE. If you remove the Expertise from gear and bolster everyone to the same stats for combat you have an even playing field.

Why would you not want an even playing field for PvP? Is it because you somehow feel you're owed easy kills against undergeared competition? That by playing longer than someone else you're owed a cheat?

Its like playing CoD and hey, since you've been here since release we're giving you a special aimbot. It gets more and more accurate the more you play, so keep coming back.

[Elhana]

I'm confused. The only people who could be offended by the removal of Expertise on gear would be people who are using PvP gear to PvE. If you remove the Expertise from gear and bolster everyone to the same stats for combat you have an even playing field.

Why would you not want an even playing field for PvP? Is it because you somehow feel you're owed easy kills against undergeared competition? That by playing longer than someone else you're owed a cheat?

That is because either PvP gear is easier to get and there is no reason to do PvE content or it is harder to get and you get a classic WoW where we owned battlegrounds with our raiding gear. Expertise keeps them separate - you need to do PvP to get best gear for it and raid to progress in the fights. Currently there is no reason you would want to do hard mode flashpoints, since champion gear can be grinded solo in one week.

[CommandoPower]

I really hate the WOW influence.

 

 

Seasoned PVP Player: PVP should be fair, competitive, and fun. Gear should not make a huge difference.

 

WOW mentality: ****S!!! Why will I PVPZ if therez be no rewardz!!

 

Seasoned PVP Player: Because it's fun. You PVP because it's fun and competitive and an ever changing challenge.

 

WOW Mentality: Herp Derp youse just wants to winz in your RAIDZ gearz. No lie to me.

 

Seasoned PVP Player: That's the last thing I would want. I want an even playing field where skill is always what matters most.

 

WOW Mentality: If we dropz statz den RAID gearz always wins.

 

Seasoned PVP Player: There are other ways to balance things out or prevent PVE Raid gear from dominating without creating a double edged system every bit as bad of an issue as we are trying to avoid.

 

WOW Mentality: Herp Derp I'm gonna ignore your comment because it makes too much senze and your just a dirty PVE'r wanting to win in RAID gearz. *mouth breathe*

 

 

 

 

 

Really really really hate the WOW mentality where everything should be a grind and people who grind more should win.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CommandoPower

[Avarras]

Funny seeing all the PvE fails cry about expertise.

[uhhhhahhhhohahh]

Damn, I didn't expect this thread to get so many replies... I've read a bunch of them and just want to clear some stuff up - especially the ridiculous Straw mans people have been coming up with;

 

 

First off, I said removal of Expertise, NOT PvP Gear. You should still be able to level and get items from PvPing. I don't know why some people think removing Expertise will suddenly make PvE gear the best for PvP, are you so foolish to think they can't change numbers? the top raiding and PvP gear could both be equal for all care, if it turns out that PvP and PvE players both need the same stats.

 

I'm not some PvE player, either. I don't really like PvE at all and wouldn't even play an MMO if it wasn't possible to to level up and gear up from PvP. I only play PvE because it's necessary to level up quicker. I'm not really even an MMO player, I'm actually a HoN player - a game infinitely more competitive than this one... it's also a game where actual skills like team composition, player skill and positioning are important, not who has the biggest stat.

 

I played competitive FPS too, a while ago, one which wasn't a CoD FPS either. Everyone actually had everything available to them and we're on an equal playing field, and people played for Fun and not to grind some stat. If people care so much about the apparent grind you don't even have to remove it... if all PvP gear were Mods you could let higher Valor Ranks have access to empty orange armours, so people could actually decide what they want their character to look like and not be identical to every single other person in the Warzone, something I understand MMO players care greatly about.

 

 

 

 

Now they are putting in a 50's only bracket, fixing one problem and making many more. When you hit 50 after this patch is implemented it's going to be like going back to level 10 again, where you're still going to be getting crushed by Expertise that you haven't had the time to grind yet.

 

Even worse, I've heard that people who are 50 wont be able to queue with their friends who aren't 50, maybe I'm wrong on this but jesus, I can't even begin to understand how someone could think that's acceptable. It's still another reason for normalized PvP stats and levels, though.

Edited January 10, 2012 by uhhhhahhhhohahh

[xanix]

just put the expertise in pve sets ( working that it gives you a bonus in pve ) and remove it from the pvp sets .

 

make it only work against npc's .

 

pvp its about skill not about gear ...

[hurleybird]

I really hate the WOW influence.

 

 

Seasoned PVP Player: PVP should be fair, competitive, and fun. Gear should not make a huge difference.

 

WOW mentality: ****S!!! Why will I PVPZ if therez be no rewardz!!

 

Seasoned PVP Player: Because it's fun. You PVP because it's fun and competitive and an ever changing challenge.

 

WOW Mentality: Herp Derp youse just wants to winz in your RAIDZ gearz. No lie to me.

 

Seasoned PVP Player: That's the last thing I would want. I want an even playing field where skill is always what matters most.

 

WOW Mentality: If we dropz statz den RAID gearz always wins.

 

Seasoned PVP Player: There are other ways to balance things out or prevent PVE Raid gear from dominating without creating a double edged system every bit as bad of an issue as we are trying to avoid.

 

WOW Mentality: Herp Derp I'm gonna ignore your comment because it makes too much senze and your just a dirty PVE'r wanting to win in RAID gearz. *mouth breathe*

 

 

 

 

 

Really really really hate the WOW mentality where everything should be a grind and people who grind more should win.

 

This. All of this. What real PvPers want is better PvP. You don't get that through creating massive gear imbalances and pigeonholing the player base. Skill and teamwork should be weighted far more heavily than gear. Just because WoW did something doesn't make it right.

[Lecutus]

cry all you want they wont change it

[Condiments]

You guys are thinking too short term. People at max level are dying fast enough at is already at launch, imagine what it will be like when new content patches release with new gear sets with higher damage stats. Whatever people are lost because of getting stomped a couple of days while they gain gear will be far less than those that will leave the game when players will die under a second of focused assault. Damage WILL continue to rise making things like PvP healing, and tactics non-existent.

 

Imposing player damage reduction on pvp gear sets is a necessary evil at this point, as it preserves the tenuous balance between PvE and PvP. PvE players still get to gear chase, and PvP players enjoy more interesting combat.

 

The way to reduce the initial "brick wall" associated with starting out(although the endgame has hardly flourished yet?), is to make PvP sets easily attainable. Lets hope they do this in the future.

[CapuchinSeven]

This^

 

It is unimaginable for me to see why some people have a hard time grasping this idea.

 

Because, and I'm rubbing my brow here, PVP is meant to be about skill and team work. If PVP and PVE gear are the same and you're both wearing that gear then your skill and team work is all that matters.

 

I don't need a PVP crutch stat to help me own new 50's entering PVP in PVE gear thinking they know what they are doing. A PVE stat on PVE gear only then stops people getting easier PVP gear and using it in PVE raids. There will always be a raid boss to kill, create a large gap in PVP and PVP sill stagnate.

 

Skill and team work, it is unimaginable for me to see why some "pvpers" have a hard time grasping this idea.

 

The only things, ONLY things that a PVP stat ever brings to the game is the ability for bad PVPers to think they are good because they can grind and a massive gap between new PVPers and old, creating stagnation and sometimes even death of PVP in a game.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Dogfatherxx]

I do not think that the expertise stat should go, and I do not think that it will. It's not like BW accidently put it in there. Expertise is not some exclusive stat that only a couple people have access to. Anyone can get it.

 

At the same time, the bonuses that it provides are not nearly as much as people make it out to be. Sure, there is a bonus but its small. I think that those with the stat usually tend to be more experienced at WZ PVP and know how to use their skills to their advantage. Newer people are getting owned by these more experienced players and they don't want to admit that they were beaten fairly. Instead, they take the easy road and blame the gear.

[BDutch]

You guys are thinking too short term. People at max level are dying fast enough at is already at launch, imagine what it will be like when new content patches release with new gear sets with higher damage stats. Whatever people are lost because of getting stomped a couple of days while they gain gear will be far less than those that will leave the game when players will die under a second of focused assault. Damage WILL continue to rise making things like PvP healing, and tactics non-existent.

 

Imposing player damage reduction on pvp gear sets is a necessary evil at this point, as it preserves the tenuous balance between PvE and PvP. PvE players still get to gear chase, and PvP players enjoy more interesting combat.

 

The way to reduce the initial "brick wall" associated with starting out(although the endgame has hardly flourished yet?), is to make PvP sets easily attainable. Lets hope they do this in the future.

 

The only reason people are dying fast enough already is because of PvP gear. It has nothing to do with raid tier gear's uber stats because nobody is rolling around with a full set of T4 rolling WZs. PvP gear would already be the easiest uber gear to obtain without the expertise stat.

 

They could make give you a fresh new set of PvP gear that was easily attainable every 10 levels, and then create brackets every 10 levels and have the same effect. Why? Why bother breaking up the population? At this rate, the best PvP this game will have seen was in the first week of it being up.

[CapuchinSeven]

Im saying if they remove expertise, one can obtain gear for raiding through pvp and that would be unfair to pve people because organizing a raid is a lot harder then queueing for a bg solo, you should be rewarded in your category of the game.

 

Which is WHY expertise is better of on raid gear and not PVP gear and they both should have the same stat, that stops PVEers from getting easy PVP gear and jumping into raids and stops PVEers dominating in PVP with raid gear because PVP gear is easier to get.

 

Seriously, if a PVEer is dominating you in PVP when PVP gear and PVE gear have the same stats (other that a PVE stat) then you're just a bad PVPer and the new guy deserved to beat you.

 

Most people who raid only do it to get gear not because raiding is fun. Give them alternative ways to get equal gear and most will take it leaving only ten people left raiding.

 

Way to read even a small part of the thread there dude.

 

You're being ridiculous. You call it a grind. I call it having fun, playing part of the game I like, and getting some rewards, upgrading my character in process.

 

New players entering level 50 don't find it fun to be grinded by other 50s in PVP gear and I don't find it fun 5 shooting new level 50's in my PVP gear thanks.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[BDutch]

Seriously, if a PVEer is dominating you in PVP when PVP gear and PVE gear have the same stats (other that a PVE stat) then you're just a bad PVPer and the new guy deserved to beat you.

 

^ qft

[aishiki]

We grind PVP and rewarded by Expertise gears. Now why do you PVErs whine about not being able to match up to the seasoned PVP players. We let you PVE carebears alone with your raids and raid gears so keep your hands off our Expertise gears.