On the Two Fundamental Issues of SWTOR's Success

[JediMasterShake]

Posting to rate.

 

Excellent. Just excellent.

[Azazzello]

Good read. Cheers OP.

[Shaede]

Posting to rate, 5 stars.

 

Ignore the fanboys and their zealous minority crowd; they're as bad as the incessant whiners. You gave an insightful and clarifying post of which you can be proud; it highlights some interesting points.

 

Thanks, I'll take your advice (and the advice below) and do just that. Honestly, I was using them in place of "bump" if I saw the thread drop 20 pages. ^_~

 

I anticipated this game so highly I thought this game could be a WoW-Killer its got the fan-base and its Star Wars. I don't know if you agree but Bioware has seem to become "lazy" I mean look at Dragon Age 1 compared to Dragon Age 2, DA1 was so full of content took hours to complete had tonnes of replay value then theres DA2 which was pathetic dumbed-down and felt heavily scripted.

 

[...]

 

I know I shouldn't say this but i'm so looking foward to Guild Wars 2, this is an MMO that is looking to revolutionize MMORPG's and I hope it works because the theory of it looks amazing!

 

It was hard not to rant about Dragon Age II midstream in my post. That game did so many things disastrously wrong that it could have singlehandedly derailed the whole thing. Yes, in some ways I see the parallel between Dragon Age II and SWTOR, but at the same time, I'm much more optimistic about SWTOR than future Dragon Age titles. These are different teams, after all (though the influence of EA is pronounced in both to an alarming amount).

 

I share your excitement for Guild Wars 2, but really, who doesn't?

 

Best post I've read on this forum to date! [...]

 

A word of caution, OP: you are NOT required to respond to literally EVERY post. Please DO continue to respond to ALL posts that are intelligently written, whether the poster agrees or disagrees with you. But don't bother with the ones who only succeed in publicly humiliating themselves with responses like "TLDR". [...]

 

For your part, keep up the good work and thanks again for your excellent thoughts.

 

This is the second time I've read that! That's a huge compliment, thank you!

 

As I said above, I'll try to resist the temptation to respond to people who make those sorts of posts. It's sometimes tough to avoid the temptation of getting into pissing contests with skunks. I don't know why...

 

People have probably already told you why you are wrong, but let me reiterate. MMOs are like political candidates. When people start to see a candidate dying in popularity, they are quicker to distance themselves. [...]

 

It's true.

 

Very few people pay for more than one subscription game at a time. The "free to play" model avoids direct competition with games like WoW by avoiding the subscription problem. That's why games that have been unable to compete have changed tactics. In many cases, this results in increased revenue for the MMO.

 

The problem comes down to the fact that MMO developers keep fighting over their share of the WoW pie, but it's already WoW's pie. SWTOR did this. To me, this doesn't seem like the best move. I'll bring up Guild Wars 2 again. It's not a subscription based game, nor do its mechanics closely resemble WoW's. It's avoiding the WoW market altogether and as a result, direct competition with WoW. This gives Guild Wars 2 a great shot at being a highly successful game. If I were an investor, this would look like the "safe" bet to me.

 

But investors see direct competition with WoW as "safe" because that's the industry standard. TV shows, the radio, movies, all use the same formulas that work. These formulas, over time, are refined. That strategy works for most of our media, but not MMOs. Investors haven't figured that out yet, and until they do, they will continue to drop hundreds of millions of dollars into high risk projects like LORTO, RIFT, AEON, and SWTOR.

 

Eventually, though, one of these high risk projects might come out ahead. SWTOR, of all of them, seems to be the best candidate for that. Still, that's not how I would gamble with my money if given the opportunity.

[TheJmoney]

+!

 

/char

[GalacticKegger]

It was hard not to rant about Dragon Age II midstream in my post. That game did so many things disastrously wrong that it could have singlehandedly derailed the whole thing. Yes, in some ways I see the parallel between Dragon Age II and SWTOR, but at the same time, I'm much more optimistic about SWTOR than future Dragon Age titles. These are different teams, after all (though the influence of EA is pronounced in both to an alarming amount).

Ya... my only fear is EA treating this game the way they treated Earth & Beyond.

[radersdad]

Thought provoking post, thanks for sharing.

 

My concern for SWTOR stems from a specific point in the WoW lifecycle. Midway through WotLK we finally defeated Arthas and went back to finishing achieves in Ulduar (great instance) and a troubling thing occurred: My Friends List started dwindling.

 

It was normal for me to see 25-30 "Friends" online during my evening play time. Lots of whispers, group invites, and idle chat. Many of those players I'd known since shortly after server launch and as they took breaks or stopped playing new friends were added from a rich and vibrant server community.

 

Faction and server transfer, cross server BG and LFD, and other factors contributed to my list getting smaller and smaller as the weeks and months went by. Despite a very short rebound after Cata launched it came to a point where I'd log in and see zero friends online. The MMO aspect of the MMORPG had gone and I allowed my sub to lapse.

 

I hope that SWTOR will cultivate server communities but am disappointed that Individual Server forums do not exist. The WoW server I spent nearly seven years on had a period of enthusiastic realm forum participation. RP story lines, advertisements for crafting, grouping, guild events, and everything else thrived on our board. Legends were born, lived and died while we retold stories of the "nine hour AV" or capital city raid or whatever.

 

Although I agree with much of your post the missing element to successfully fusing a heroic single player game into a successful MMORPG is the MMO. I want to recognize the Warlord standing next to me at the GTN, chat with the crafter who helped me farm mats and crafted my epic, get that whisper from the crazy guy who hearthed in Tarren Mill/Astranaar so he could get there fast and pvp.

 

It is all about the community.

 

BioWare cannot singlehandedly create this community out of thin air: we as players must actively cultivate it. However, if they intend to stay with a subscription model they must give players as many tools as possible for them to do it. Not many people are going to pay $15/month to play Skyrim. They will pay $15/month to get online and chat with frinds, accomplish group activities and goals, see and hear what they missed while they were logged off, etc.

 

Like many others I will give the game 3-4 months to get some legs under it but I sure hope it has a clear idea where it is going when it does stand up.

[Katrar]

This is the sort of post that validates even having forums.

 

An excellent read and if BW is smart it will have internally forwarded this post to a few key people.

 

5/5

[slaogwerk]

Fantastic post. If only this post was created by BW. 5/5

[Vis_Vires]

Excellent post. I think SWTOR really should of taken a leaf from LOTRO in the grander scheme of things. You dont play a "main character" - you can - to an extent interact with them, when the story dictates it, but realistically, your a nameless being, doing things in the background, that had at best, little effect on the storyline.

 

I've only played a sith warrior, but for the tens of thousands of those created, each one will be led to believe by npc's and cutscenes etc that they, are, the next big thing, each of which happens to have the exact same starship, companions, haircut etc etc etc. At times it feels like a giant co-op single player rpg. The uniqueness of characters seems missing.

 

The OP has hit the nail on the head, playing as the best thing since sliced bread master of the universe type character is very well suited to single player games, but to an MMORPG? No.

[JohnnyPanzer]

Super, simpy superb.

 

One of the most well-written posts I've seen in any forum, ever. You reflect many of my own thoughts, the detatchment from the world in particular.

 

Having recently become a father (at the age of 35, old dad) for the first time, I find that the themepark style I've always loathed so much suits my time schedule perfectly. Therefore, I had a hard time figuring out why the game keeps rubbing me the wrong way, even though I play it whenever I have time and I actualy have a great time while doing it. The answer came to me a couple of days ago, and it's closely related to some of your ideas:

 

I keep getting pulled out of the moment!

 

I do a sidequest and feel truly immersed, then I see another player run past me, dressed exactly like me and with the same exact title, build, facial features and facial hair. This is a much bigger problem in SWTOR compared to other MMOs, since the game is realy pushing how important your character is all the time.

 

From the first few minutes of my journey, I'm told that I'm number one. I'm the most promising person in the galaxy, nothing can compare to me and without me the galaxy is doomed. It all depends solely on me... and that other guy next to me. And Padawan JediNoPants over there. Not to mention EatmyshortsLOL behind me, if he could only stop jumping like a bunny for a minute.

 

Like you said, the game is good, and has a lot of potential. I just hope they use that potential well and find a better way of marrying single player games with MMOs. I hope they make it their own.

[Dilbon]

This thread reminded me about these two presentations. A Bioware guy said this about a year ago:

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2011/02/greg-zeschuk-world-of-warcraft.html

 

"It is a touchstone," Zeschuk told the audience. "It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb. If you have established standards, WoW established them."

 

And then there's this 2007 speech from an ArenaNet guy, the company doing GW2. He's really got a point here.

 

http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

 

"If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost."

[davidlqs]

Posting mainly to rate (5* btw).

 

I'm hopeful that the dated feel is something that can be addressed in short order. A lot of modern MMO concepts / features that have been excluded from the release product can't be far behind. Hopefully there have been parallel development threads that will allow some "missing" features to be patched in quite quickly.

 

I'm not convinced that just borrowing the best bits from other games in the genre is going to be enough though. Whilst WoW is still so dominant in the MMO-marketplace a new game needs to be as user-friendly as WoW but also offer something different. SWTOR certainly offers a new setting, and story-mode is quite nice, although the spacebar to skip dialogue is already being used by me when levelling alts. Just as fast quest text proved essential in WoW. Companions also offer a new slant on additional skills which is pretty cool - a bit like a really simple to use but powerful macro.

 

The big problem that I see is that story-mode can't be kept going well enough. The vast bulk of MMO game-hours are spent at maximum level. I don't see much of a role for story-mode once you've arrived there. A whole generation of MMO players expect some sort of stats-based progression system. Without that they will, I fear, depart, along with their subs, something which EA / Bioware will be very keen to avoid.

[Serenator]

A very well-written and thought-provoking post and many good replies too (a shame about the few posters who insist on dissing things without reading them, but oh well)

 

I'm finding SWTOR interesting as almost a single-player experience at the moment, but it does feel dated. Thank you for clearly explaining why.

[Kubernetic]

When you start with development, you need to start with what is available, or what you believe to be the best at the time. Considering this took what, 4 years to develop?, I would assume what they started with at the time was a decision they had to make. At the time the decision they made was probably sound. Hell, alot can change in 1 year that is impossible to keep up with. They obviously chose to add some new things from the start and drop some things that other MMOs had at the time.

 

Alot changes the world of gaming in 4 years. There is no possible way that we would be playing the game now (or in 3 years time) if they made a decision to change and keep up with everything in the world of MMOs (or any sort of gaming for that matter) that happened over the 4 or 5 years of development.

 

Just like WoW, this game will take time to build and expand upon. People need to be patient and give it time. 6-12 months should be enough to get a good indication of whether BW intend to make this game a long term investment.

 

EDIT: Your comments about the central character and the fact that BH have the "Great Hunt" title - WoW does the same thing essentially. I believe both try to make you feel like a hero in a greater world - they just go about it differently. I don't believe that WoW is less hero driven than SWTOR.

 

Thank you. You said this much more eloquently than I had in me at the time. You have competently explained why no game with a significant development curve can launch with all of the bells and whistles included to that point without an ungodly development budget that would make profit unattainable.

 

And I thank you again!

[Farcaster]

Sure, count me in as a fanboy. I like Star Wars and I particularly enjoy BioWare's method of engaging a player in the story and creating a strong attachment to the characters and companions I play with. Few other developers have the experience and skill to create worlds that draw you in and make you an active participant the way BioWare has with their stable of RPGs.

 

For those who have played some of BioWare's other games, the single-player aspects of SWTOR are very familiar. Marrying that with the concept of an MMO doesn't at first seem a workable idea, until you look at one of the main complaints that many gamers have with other MMOs: the tortuous "grind" to max level, which SWTOR handles incredibly well. I did not rush to L50. I savoured the stories and quests along the way and treated much of it as a single player experience, but with the enjoyable social benefits found in MMOs, the guild experience, sharing my thoughts and experiences with others.

 

I don't think a lot of you give credit where it is due, frankly. SWTOR was the biggest game project ever conceived, and despite a number of bugs, it's launch was a record success. I see the vast majority of posters love the PvP aspect of the game, as well as the class storylines. The variety and complexity of the crafting systems are well thought out. There really aren't enough of us at L50 to rate the Operations, but those that have seen them aren't screaming on the forums.

 

So why so many sad faces? Did everyone expect a game of this scale to be released completely bug-free? Are you not entertained? Does the Star Wars flavor not meet with your high expectations? Or are you just jaded?

 

The complaints the OP makes have me wondering just what they think is possible in a game. BioWare has a design philosophy in mind and have worked for years to bring it to life. Should they abandon those goals and do a 180 just to suit the vocal minority on the forums who demand their bread and circuses? Should one game design choice by BioWare be vilified because 1% of the player base says so? Just look at the components in an MMO that a developer is required to include to satisfy an ever increasinly demanding customer base.

 

And now look at what they managed to accomplish. Imagine what BioWare needs to do down the road to match the quality of the original release as new expansions are developed. I think BioWare has been very ambitious in making an MMO that brings the RPG experience to the fore in the way they have. No other developer has even tried to do what BioWare has succeeded at, a fully voice-acted cinematic leveling experience that eliminates the dreaded grind. I am seriously looking forward to getting a look at all the classes, and somewhat torn that I won't do it soon, as I am anticipating high level content even more so.

 

If anything destroyed my interest in WoW after 7 years, it was the Blizzard succumbing to the player base's demands, that seesawed the direction of the game back and forth. It went from challenging to easy to hard from one expansion to the next. The lack of direction at the Lead Design level took its toll.

 

maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. I've played SWG from release until WoW came out. I played that for seven years and only quit that when my experiences in the SWTOR beta made WoW pale in comparison.

 

So, is SWTOR perfect? How could it be when every player has different expectations, play-styles and demands? Is it good enough to keep me paying $15 a month? Damned right it is.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Farcaster

[DarrkLore]

Intro

 

Aside from a minority of zealots, it's obvious that the vast majority of SWTOR is identical to its predecessors World of Warcraft and Knights of the Old Republic.

So your biggest complaint is that the game stays within the norms of its genre and has the same feel as its predessor KOTOR... Did you really expect anything different? It's an MMO game set in the Knights of the Old Republic universe... What a shock that it would play exactly like what it is.

 

All MMOs have a basic set of similarities just like FPS and RPG games always have the same underlying elements. That's what makes them what they are. It's not just a "WoW" clone, a lot of the staples of WoW were in place in MMOs before WoW even came around. If you don't like the "WoW-like" elements then maybe MMOs just aren't for you. And if you don't like the similarities to KOTOR then maybe a game set in that universe also just isn't for you.

 

Personally, the fact that they kept the KOTOR spirit in tact in this game is one of the things I love most about it.

[kalexkhan]

So your biggest complaint is that the game stays within the norms of its genre and has the same feel as its predessor KOTOR... Did you really expect anything different? It's an MMO game set in the Knights of the Old Republic universe... What a shock that it would play exactly like what it is.

 

All MMOs have a basic set of similarities just like FPS and RPG games always have the same underlying elements. That's what makes them what they are. It's not just a "WoW" clone, a lot of the staples of WoW were in place in MMOs before WoW even came around. If you don't like the "WoW-like" elements then maybe MMOs just aren't for you. And if you don't like the similarities to KOTOR then maybe a game set in that universe also just isn't for you.

 

Personally, the fact that they kept the KOTOR spirit in tact in this game is one of the things I love most about it.

 

You are right however, key elements WoW chose to innovate/iterate/improve on.

 

Here's a major example:

 

When was the last time you logged in, wanted to get some levels, went into your zone and yelled "Camp Check?" with the expectations that you could get put on a list in a group so that in an hour or two (when a slot opened up), you could start getting some XP.

 

Thats how you did it in EVERQUEST. Then WoW came along, and they blew that convention out of the friggin water by giving you bite sized, hand fed quests and your own little personalized means of leveling without others. We don't ask for camp checks no more, but you know what we still do in SWTOR? We still quest grind. They put some fancy makeup on her with cinematics, but at the end of the day, its still the same old quest system WoW gave us back in 04, and this represents one failure in biowares opportunity to ask "how can we make our game better than WOW"?

[Shaede]

So many great replies overnight! Wow!

 

BioWare cannot singlehandedly create this community out of thin air: we as players must actively cultivate it. However, if they intend to stay with a subscription model they must give players as many tools as possible for them to do it. Not many people are going to pay $15/month to play Skyrim. They will pay $15/month to get online and chat with frinds, accomplish group activities and goals, see and hear what they missed while they were logged off, etc.

 

Agreed. The community, in the end, is what keeps people interested in an online game. Online games are social, and that's exactly what sets them apart from single player games. Skyrim, no matter how massive it is, feels like a lonely place. NPCs can only have so much dialogue and AI can only go so far.

 

It is my opinion that the mechanics of an MMO should always promote player cooperation. I remember watching a Guild Wars 2 video some time ago that said exactly what I was thinking. Players should be happy to run into each other online. Personally, when leveling, I prefer to be alone so that I can get all the mobs, chests, and resource nodes for myself. I'm competing with other players to progress, and as I see it, this is a weakness in the genre.

 

At the same time, the best online communities I've ever seen have all been in the worst MMORPGs. FFXI comes to mind. I've never been so close to others online, nor been in such reciprocally beneficial relationships as I was in FFXI. The game stunk, no doubt. The community, though, was fantastic. I sometimes worry that a fantastic MMO inevitably breeds a terrible community.

 

This thread reminded me about these two presentations.

 

[...]

 

"If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost."

 

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. I said the same thing a page or two back. I'm not shocked to see an Arena.net spokesperson say it. I seem to think a lot like those people, and I'll admit, I kind of idolize them.

 

The big problem that I see is that story-mode can't be kept going well enough. The vast bulk of MMO game-hours are spent at maximum level. I don't see much of a role for story-mode once you've arrived there. A whole generation of MMO players expect some sort of stats-based progression system. Without that they will, I fear, depart, along with their subs, something which EA / Bioware will be very keen to avoid.

 

I agree. Revamping the leveling experience and features like the Legacy system are good choices, but in the end, Bioware is going to have to cater to the endgame crows like any successful MMO company. In a way, this sort of makes me wonder why MMOs bother with the single player RPG leveling system still. It was initially designed (the console RPG) as a way to give players a mechanic to overcome obstacles that were too challenging for them. You can always come back higher level. Over time, it was adopted into games that scaled the difficulty of the game with the player's level and used leveling as a tool for introducing all the game's mechanics slowly. Though that still holds true for the MMORPG, one could argue that too much time is spent on that leveling process (which is itself just an extended tutorial) when the actual meat of the game is at max level (where you can reliably group with friends for months without worrying about each other's relative power).

 

Perhaps future MMOs will minimize or eliminate entirely this element of play (now that I think of it, Guild Wars had a reduced leveling experience with a focus instead on collecting skills, so that's one alternative).

 

I don't think a lot of you give credit where it is due, frankly. SWTOR was the biggest game project ever conceived, and despite a number of bugs, it's launch was a record success. I see the vast majority of posters love the PvP aspect of the game, as well as the class storylines. The variety and complexity of the crafting systems are well thought out. There really aren't enough of us at L50 to rate the Operations, but those that have seen them aren't screaming on the forums.

 

Every year some game studio produces the most expensive game ever produced and makes a record number of sales. The gaming market is still being carved out, so it's expected that we'll continue to see this until almost everyone is a gamer (in the way that almost everyone watches movies or listens to music). That being said, SWTOR is still on the list of leaders paving the way forward to carve out that market, so their accomplishment doesn't amount to nothing. I simply think it's often overstated.

 

So why so many sad faces? Did everyone expect a game of this scale to be released completely bug-free? Are you not entertained? Does the Star Wars flavor not meet with your high expectations? Or are you just jaded?

 

I'd like to start by saying that offering an analysis / critique is not the same as complaining or being upset. For some reason, critical discussion in gaming communities is looked on with undue negativity. This is simply meant to be a thoughtful examination of the challenges SWTOR faces if it wishes to meet success in the market.

 

The complaints the OP makes have me wondering just what they think is possible in a game. BioWare has a design philosophy in mind and have worked for years to bring it to life. Should they abandon those goals and do a 180 just to suit the vocal minority on the forums who demand their bread and circuses? Should one game design choice by BioWare be vilified because 1% of the player base says so? Just look at the components in an MMO that a developer is required to include to satisfy an ever increasinly demanding customer base.

 

I tried to zone in on problems that I saw as limited to Blizzard's and Bioware's game models. Some of them can certainly expand to the genre as a whole or gaming as a whole, but I didn't want to focus too much attention there because, frankly, not much can be done. Gaming narratives are extremely limited, as we're all aware, but the limitations have some flexibility to them. For instance; SWTOR was not limited to creating a setting full of seemingly helpless NPCs running to you for aid with this task or that task. That's built in to WoW's quest-hub style leveling system. SWTOR was also not limited to placing the player in a universe where they are the most important central figure of the game, yet still need to pay a year's salary to learn one skill from some no name trainer every few arbitrary kills and missions. That, again, is WoW's old model of skill progression. Finally, SWTOR was not limited to existing in a world with arbitrarily "good" and "evil" that the players must choose between by either giving medicine to soldiers (bad) or refugees (good). That was KOTOR and KOTOR 2 (and even in those, especially the second, there was some moral ambiguity).

 

These or the sorts of issues that should be focused on because they are the most immediate to the player and they can be examined and addressed (even if it's far too late to fundamentally alter them).

 

If anything destroyed my interest in WoW after 7 years, it was the Blizzard succumbing to the player base's demands, that seesawed the direction of the game back and forth. It went from challenging to easy to hard from one expansion to the next. The lack of direction at the Lead Design level took its toll.

 

I see this as a prevalent misconception. As a designer, I don't look to the voices of others on message boards to determine my design choices. After all, they aren't the designers and (frankly) design work is too fun to pass off to others (who are notoriously bad at it). If I had an MMO, I would read and consider their concerns, but I certainly wouldn't let them influence the design much. I would look at the game's statistics to let me know what players really want. How many raid, how often? What stats are the most popular? Builds? What class is the most played, least played? What is the most common strategy in raids? What consumables? How many? All the data is already there and it's often more accurate than anyone in the community has access to.

 

MMORPGs are first and foremost about making money. They're glorified Skinner boxes designed to keep gamers paying their subscriptions to get intermittent rewards in a system with no end goal. It's American capitalism in game format. The reason WoW has shifted so much to player demand is because Blizzard looks at the numbers and says, "How can we make these numbers bigger?" Like the players, Blizzard is playing their own game. It's called a business, and it functions just like an MMO. They do whatever they can to make the numbers bigger because, at the end of the day, growth (ie. progression) is all that matters. There is no end goal for Blizzard any more than there is for WoW, and that is the core of the problem for both.

 

So, is SWTOR perfect? How could it be when every player has different expectations, play-styles and demands? Is it good enough to keep me paying $15 a month? Damned right it is.

 

Good! I'm not trying to talk you or anyone else out of playing SWTOR. As I've said several times, I'm just trying to promote critical discussion on the challenges SWTOR will need to address in order to be the successful game we all hope it can be.

[DarrkLore]

We don't ask for camp checks no more, but you know what we still do in SWTOR? We still quest grind. They put some fancy makeup on her with cinematics, but at the end of the day, its still the same old quest system WoW gave us back in 04, and this represents one failure in biowares opportunity to ask "how can we make our game better than WOW"?

 

See that's what I don't get. I don't see the SWTOR quests as a grind at all. In FFXI there were few quests and what they had for quests (except for the group oriented missions) were shallow, boring, and didn't grant much xp. You had to fight mob after mob after mob after mob in that game and that was pretty much all you did to get to level cap. Now THAT'S what I call a grind ugh. And the fact that Bioware did "put some fancy makeup" on their quests is a big improvement in my eyes. I'm actually enjoying the leveling process because I'm getting a story and interesting characters to listen to along the way.

 

What way would you suggest they innovate their leveling system instead of using quests?

[kalexkhan]

See that's what I don't get. I don't see the SWTOR quests as a grind at all. In FFXI there were few quests and what they had for quests (except for the group oriented missions) were shallow, boring, and didn't grant much xp. You had to fight mob after mob after mob after mob in that game and that was pretty much all you did to get to level cap. Now THAT'S what I call a grind ugh. And the fact that Bioware did "put some fancy makeup" on their quests is a big improvement in my eyes. I'm actually enjoying the leveling process because I'm getting a story and interesting characters to listen to along the way.

 

What way would you suggest they innovate their leveling system instead of using quests?

 

Thanks for your response.

 

And I do agree that the cinematics went a long way but i'm now at about level 30 and losing steam. I'd argue they are not worth the inherent development costs to animation/voice over capture to produce. I'm still following my main quest along, and half way following the main arch on my respective planets, but the others i'm just clicking through embarrasingly because i know their all just kick,click, or locate quests. Everything is.

 

Now in terms of innovations i dont know.... Maybe I would swing the pendelum back and allow users to find places to camp in groups again, maybe i would just make it not as slow as it used to be, and have the mobs perhaps do more interesting things than they did back in the olden days.

 

I'd also maybe try more zone oriented types of goals and quests, i mean it is star wars, open battles could feel pretty rad if they went off every 30 mins or something.

 

Or maybe I'd get ultra progressive, do away with NPC driven quests entirely and go to guild/class/user driven quests only where content is driven more emergently, and in order for you to customize your skill set, you have to achieve game goals like "kill x sith" or "explore certain parts of the world" or things that have never been done before. If you want your guild to have a bigger and better base, or be able to have a guild bank, gotta go achieve x number of successfull completions of Black Talon.

 

I don't know, but I would have really tried hard to do away with the predictable quest patterns that seem to rule every single MMO to date. Ambitious? Definately, but WoW blew away the old school convention when Group Grinds and Camps ruled, and they became the biggest MMO ever to date. The first team that actually tries AND succeeds in solving this question/challenge, is a team i'm going to be watching closely.

Edited January 4, 2012 by kalexkhan

[Shaede]

See that's what I don't get. I don't see the SWTOR quests as a grind at all. In FFXI there were few quests and what they had for quests (except for the group oriented missions) were shallow, boring, and didn't grant much xp. You had to fight mob after mob after mob after mob in that game and that was pretty much all you did to get to level cap. Now THAT'S what I call a grind ugh. And the fact that Bioware did "put some fancy makeup" on their quests is a big improvement in my eyes. I'm actually enjoying the leveling process because I'm getting a story and interesting characters to listen to along the way.

 

What way would you suggest they innovate their leveling system instead of using quests?

 

I can understand what an improvement SWTOR is from FFXI. FFXI was like EQ in a lot of ways, significantly more than WoW was. People who say that WoW was exactly like EQ probably never played EQ. Grinding mobs in groups for hours on end is fun for one MMO, and even then, only for a little while. I couldn't bring myself to get to the level cap in FFXI even though the most prestigious LS in NA at the time had a seat waiting for me. The game just didn't hold me.

 

Afterwards, I tried out World of Warcraft. I remember first logging on and thinking that it was the most amazing online game ever. I easily got to the level cap on several characters, and even that prestigious FFXI LS moved over in favor of WoW. It's just a huge step up.

 

SWTOR is roughly the same step up from FFXI that WoW was for me. Sure, it's not the exact same game, but it's extremely close. Nonetheless, quest-based leveling is starting to get old. Lots of people have been playing that sort of game for as long as you've been playing the camp-based leveling in FFXI. For a lot of people, the quest hubs in SWTOR feel a lot like the camps in FFXI might for you. Hopefully you could imagine why people would want to take a step past that.

 

I don't know, but I would have really tried hard to do away with the predictable quest patterns that seem to rule every single MMO to date. Ambitious? Definately, but WoW blew away the old school convention when Group Grinds and Camps ruled, and they became the biggest MMO ever to date. The first team that actually tries AND succeeds in solving this question/challenge, is a team i'm going to be watching closely.

 

I seriously recommend you look in to Guild Wars 2 if you haven't yet. I know I've brought it up several times in this thread, but it's really the best example of another system in development that avoids questing to max level. Also, as it has no subscription, it's easily playable in conjunction with a game like SWTOR. I wouldn't keep bringing it up if I felt that it were direct competition. That would be rude, after all!

[kalexkhan]

 

Afterwards, I tried out World of Warcraft. I remember first logging on and thinking that it was the most amazing online game ever. I easily got to the level cap on several characters, and even that prestigious FFXI LS moved over in favor of WoW. It's just a huge step up.

 

This is important to note, because I also had the same type of experience when WoW launched. It instantly felt great to be playing a game that personalized the leveling process, i didn't rely on others so ardently any longer. I also wasn't penalized for death as severely, and didn't have to buy or craft skills from the market place, i got them from NPCs. The quest systems was new and it also felt revolutionary to be playing something new that drove content and allowed me to curiously explore the world looking for more quests etc. Because of all these new and fresh things that were stimulating me, i put up with the bugs, lack of feature x, or y, and server instability.

 

I personally feel like SWTOR lacks anything really unique or any real special twists to design problems that are now faced by WoW that make me feel glad I quit it back in 2007. Right now, everything I do in SWTOR REMINDS me of the game I quit back in 07. The Cinematic dressings were nice up to about level 30, now its just makeup on a tired old twi'lek IMO.

 

Earlier, I log in to Alderaan in the hub. I go around eyeballing my minimap looking for signs of a quest. When I find them, i pick them all up, then i go click the robot so i can take the "griffin" back later. Then I head out into the world on my mount, eyeballing my map for bullet points i know my respective quests are at. When I get their, no matter, i'll figure out what it actually wants me to do by killing, or clicking glowies that grab my eye. This experience could be the exact same experience someone else is likely in WoW in this exact moment, or perhaps any other mainstream MMO out right now. All I'm left to say is "WHY should i be doing this all over again?"

 

Big difference from my experiences of a bored EQ player finding WoW for the first time, and a tired WoW player finding SWTOR. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Edited January 4, 2012 by kalexkhan

[Pheroras]

5 stars

 

sadly i think the flaws of the game are due to the investors and corporate overseers, and they will stay integral to the structure of the game so as to milk the game lessee in the least offensive way

[Grammarye]

I disagree that Bioware are failing to translating Mass Effect or even KOTOR into the MMO space per se.

 

The players are not central key figures. They are bit players. The central key figures are people like Darth Malgus, the Dark Council, Satele Shan, and so on. We are the Wedge Antilles with our own personal involving story whilst the big events happen around us.

 

Warcraft also went that way. You had little say over the overall course of events, but you followed instructions and helped those events happen.

 

It's an interesting, if overly long & verbose analysis, but I'm not sure what innovations you expect to see that have occurred in the last few years. I'm not convinced that the morality system in DA was really that different, plus you're failing to take into account lore - Star Wars is very much about light & dark side. Collecting gear is actually of interest to a lot of players, especially those from KOTOR. You are assuming it's a bad thing, which it may not be.

 

The talent changes in WoW have very much been controversial, so I'm not convinced that the comparison is a fair one to make. Just because Blizzard decided it doesn't work for them doesn't automatically make the original idea bad.

 

In short, you are assuming that all the design decisions made by Blizzard, or indeed even Bioware in Mass Effect 2 & Dragon Age 2, are good ones. DA2 was not well received by DA players. Even Mass Effect 2 had those who said 'why did you dumb it down from ME so much?'. Opinion is just that, subjective. You have taken a subjective viewpoint and suggested that it must be done for mass market appeal. There is a logical linkage here that does not necessarily follow.

 

Edit: I've read some of your followup posts & I can agree that there is much that is positive that can be done to address TOR's shortcomings (it does have them). I would like to see more things that draw players together out in the world, for example. I miss base defences in Tabula Rasa which was one of the few bits of the game that really worked well. That's one idea that could very easily translate well to TOR, as could GuildWar's Factions front line for things like space missions and PvP to give larger meaning to them.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Grammarye

[Perfik]

Intro

 

Aside from a minority of zealots, it's obvious that the vast majority of SWTOR is identical to its predecessors World of Warcraft

 

i stopped reading there... i really do not understand why SWTOR and WOW must be in the SAME sentence seriously.

 

and btw why everyone is so eager for SWTOR success or not ? are you shareholders ?

 

answer only to this question looking in a mirror

 

" DOES SWTOR DESERVE MY $15 ? "

 

this is the only question you must do, all the others are for the studio the publisher and their shareholders.